2.1 or 2.2 Ch setups. How do you blend a sub?

pkquat

I thought I would ask this here since I think it is more related to 2Ch than subwoofers. From a speaker standpoint, the perfect 2Ch setup is generally a pair of full range speakers that have little coloration and flat response for a wide frequency range with little roll off. The low frequencies are often hardest to reproduce and still have the woofer blend well. Speakers that do this are often very expensive. To get the best voicing, have a smaller cabinet, and to avoid timing issues, many less expensive, and some expensive speakers, roll off the lower frequencies. If you want more, and fuller bass you need a sub.

I've heard many times that in reality you need an expensive servo controlled sub (back in the day it was Velodyne) and that you need a pair. The servo control was especially needy for ribbon speakers. This often meant the total package cost was got closer to a very expensive pair of speakers. The subs needed to be placed next to or under the mains. The location was critical for timing.

I am wondering what is done today and still considered audiophile? Does some of the receiver digital technology solve the timing issues with lets say a decent, yet economical SVS or Polk sub, or do you need a sub with a digital crossover and mic. Do you still need two subs with a digital crossover? Is servo control still a thing? Can you, or when can you get by with a non front firing sub? Can you get by with a PR based sub? What are crossover points / number of subs that are still considered audiophile? Where do sub amps and amp quality come into play?

What do forum members have for 2.1 or 2.2 setups? Are 2.+ setups sacrilege, or ok, but not purist, for some listening when we want the bass?

honestaquarian

I have a stereo + 2 sub setup in my bedroom (2.2 channel) Since there isn't really much in the way of room setup programs in stereo receivers. You temd to be forced to do it the old fashioned way-by ear. I know there are setup programs that you can buy,but they are often pretty expensive and/or hard to find.
It also depends on how you go about setting the system up. Look at my equipment list to see what I am running in the bedroom.

mikeyb128

I would say head over to the REL website and use their recommended set up guide. It works great and is easy to follow. It has allowed me to dial in my subs perfectly. Every high end shop I've set foot in has 2 subs lurking in behind the speakers.

I believe you can dial in the subs no problem unless you have major room issues. Which if properly addressed with room treatments I don't think correction software is necessary.

SCompRacer

pkquat wrote: »

I am wondering what is done today and still considered audiophile?

To me any solution to improve lacking low bass is audiophile provided you are not overly accentuating the low tones. Proper blending is the key. Speakers interact with rooms.

I like to use my ears and acoustics software. Free software is available, like REW. You want burst tones, not steady tones that load the room up and give you incorrect readings. It's nice to look at a graph to see how you are progressing. You move things measure, you gain, you lose, then you come up with the best solution posible. Moving speakers makes a difference too.

My two channel system is open to the main level, over 10,000 cubic feet. I use two NHT 12" subs to shore up the 25-35Hz range. I don't always play music that goes that low, but when I do, the subs are always on, I hear and feel it. Sub manufacturers tell me I should have two 15" subs for my space. I have been able to use the sub controls to effectively dial them in.

Placement is a big thing with subs. Low bass has length, so my best sub placement is between and behind my speakers, against the wall. I'm good with low bass at listening position, but if you move toward center of room, bass nulls out, disappears. Corner loading of subs didn't work out well for me.

Bass traps in corners are a big plus too. I use four GIK bass traps in my listening area. Read about the animal, understanding it helps you fix it.

halo

This is the first time, in a very long time, I've incorporated a sub into a 2-channel set up.

My speakers have good bass response but room acoustics were keeping them at bay. Adding the sub helped. I've been constantly working on dialing in the level of the sub to get it to blend uniformly. This seems to depend on the music I'm playing. Recordings that are super shy on bass need a little more gain and super heavy bass needs to be dialed down.

I asked Ed at SVS and he said that a good rule of thumb is to set the mains at 75 db with Pink Noise and set the sub at 70 - 72 db by adjusting the gain on the sub with the pink noise. I have found that this generally has the sub running a little too "hot" for my taste and I back it down even more. I'm not using any acoustic room treatments or a software program to measure my room but both would be a very good idea if you have the time & funds to do so.

pkquat

TY for the replies. The advice on the REL website is the basic setup knowledge I've heard about. I'm not sure about the corner loading though. It works great when done right and when timing adjustments can be made. For HT I think it gets the biggest ang for the buck, but IMO timing can be an issue, just like room acoustics.

I'll check out the REW software when I get closer to that point. Does REW give you burst tones? It sounds like "by ear" is the general consensus. From an audiophile standpoint treating the room first does make the most sense, and then work the subs in. I think I am favoring two subs when I get to that point.

What are your crossover frequencies for the subs? Is there a preferred frequency? IMO the higher the frequency, the closer they need to be to the speaker. What do you use for timing by ear?

steveinaz

I set mine up this time by ear. I got tired of running sweeps, measuring, etc. I settled in on a 45Hz crossover (my Harbeths are -3dB @ 46Hz). I think the biggest mistake people make w/subs, is too much gain. Some feel like they should hear the sub all the time----not a good strategy.

If you detect a "smearing" of your midrange--this is a sign of too much sub gain.

mikeyb128

Have to agree, rew is a very useful tool but can get over whelming. I used it for home theater and ended up ditching it, I obsessed over it for a long time, didn't know i had a problem until I ran a sweep (even though it sounded good). My 2 channel system gets tuned by ear. I use a pink noise to level match my subs to the mains, then adjust the bass according to my tastes. I put the gain to 80hz then adjust it down until I don't hear it overlapping with the mains. My subs are close to the towers so timing/delay isn't as critical, the phase adjustment in combination with the crossover frequency is the tricky part and takes some time to get right. Especially with 2 subs.

steveinaz

A good rule of thumb for tuning by ear is to start 10hz above your mains -3dB low freq roll off, and go down from there to remove any muddiness. I have personally never had to mess with phase--and have always left it at 0 degrees; but my sub(s) has always been on the same plane as my mains.

Paradoxex

Doesn't an antimode 8033 solve this issue? I've wanted one, but they seem awfully expensive, especially the newer versions.

honestaquarian

I was using a pair of RT-35i's and then upgraded to some RT-55's.Using the exact same settings and crossover I noticed a markedly better sub/satellite integration in my room. The gain is turned way down on the subs (PSW-200's)because just one of them can shake the entire building!!
That power port is an amazing thing!

mikeyb128

Paradoxex wrote: »

Doesn't an antimode 8033 solve this issue? I've wanted one, but they seem awfully expensive, especially the newer versions.

I wouldn't consider the antimode expensive, once you try one, they do an absolutely fantastic job. Try to get one used of you can. But they don't come up often.

pearsall001

Paradoxex wrote: »

Doesn't an antimode 8033 solve this issue? I've wanted one, but they seem awfully expensive, especially the newer versions.

Yes indeed, they do an excellent job to say the least. No sub should be without one! It all depends what your definition of expensive means. Good grief man guys spend a whole lot more cash on cables without a lick of making a difference. The Anti-Mode will elevate your system without a shadow of a doubt.

pkquat

Interesting about the Anti-mode 8033. I've seen some subs with something similar built it. Its nice to see a standalone. That brings up the other part of my ponderings when do added electronics potentially color the sound, vs room issues? I am not looking to turn this in to a cable thread, but I've wondered once you start adding processing or even pass through, when does that potentially color the sound, especially once someone is particular about the components and cables? Some people didn't like the Velodyne setup because the mains were run through the sub, even though from what I understand the impedance was high, and it was only sampling the original signal, there were still added connectors. IMO for the size of the sub the the Velodynes were tight, responsive, and timed well when placed near the mains.

For lower frequencies I don't think processing is too critical, as long as the mains are untouched. This is why I wondered what the crossover frequencies were. I've been one to hear sub locations or coloration when the crossover frequency is higher, especially above the 40-50Hz range. Without hearing or trying the Anti-mode 8033 am not sure how it compares vs. room treatments. I've favored room treatments (although I currently have none ) since they can passively treat all frequencies and bring the focus to the mains. I think it can give a larger sweet spot when the sub(s) are near the mains or at least a larger well blended area.

I think I am summing this down to
1. What's the crossover frequency?
2. Where are the sub(s) located and in relation to the mains?
3. Are you using any active and/or servo control for the sub?
4. Are you using any active control that effects the mains?