The tube thread!

mikeyb128

Since acquiring my shanling tube CD player, then my Cary tube pre, I have literally been obsessing over tubes. I know I'm not the only one. So let's talk tubes! What's your favorite? I know this is very system dependent, but I love it!

Just recently (thanks to H9) I picked up a quad of Valvo labeled, but actually Mullard Blackburn 12au7's from Germany, NOS with boxes, date codes 1960, and have been letting them burn in for the past week. Things are really starting to sound sweet! So far they are my favorite I've tried, coming in close second to 1960 RCA triple mica JRC 5814A. A friend of mine recently brought over a NOS set of brimar 12au7 quad, those will be next after I spend more time with these valvos. Which are sounding really sweet!

Nightfall

I knew you would like Mullards. Anybody that likes Focal speakers would probably like Mullard tubes.

Amperex signal tubes made in Holland have been my favorite so far. Not sure about power tubes, I'm going to stay SS on that front.

heiney9

Mullards are great for the right application, they can be a little on the dark side. Mids to die for, not the last word in detail. A more romantic laid back sound. I roll all types of Mullards once in awhile.

Valvo's made in Hamburg are among my favorites, long plates especially. They are magical. Big wide soundstage, great detail and a liveliness that's hard to duplicate. Bass is tight and did I mention the soundstage!

Tung Sol and early Sylvania (Gold Brand) and military tubes are superb and don't always get the recognition they deserve. The 5814 Sylvania GB's from the late 50's are excellent.

Power tubes, I was using SED =C='s, but they are prohibitively expensive since the plant stopped making tubes in 2013. I have a nice stash, however.

I finally bought a pair of 1957 Amperex Holland ECC83 foil D getter's at a good price. I like the ECC82 of the same year.

H9

mikeyb128

I am loving the mullards, but I have noticed the darkness, they sound superb with some music, some is way too laid back and tubey. The RCA's are very balanced from top to bottom, very clean. I've noticed the lack of bass from the mullards vs the RCA's. RCA have very punchy bass, you feel it in the chest. Thinking of trying a pair of mullards and RCA's to get the best of both worlds. I'm looking for another pair of amperex bugle boys so I can try a quad. I love tight punchy bass and huge around stage. The focals excell with sound stage, Love the experimentation of different pairs of tubes. I'm still learning. I like to gauge what a quad will sound like then go from there with mixing and matching.

heiney9

RCA Bp's in general have an abundance of bass, in some cases it's really overdone compared to how the music was recorded. I can't use RCA BP's because the bass is too over powering in my rig.

The thing with tubes, it allows you to tailor the sound for everything you want to play. Rolling is very addictive and whole lot of fun.

H9

Nightfall

@heiney9 what do you know about these $250 per tube Amperex 12AU7's?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Amperex-12au7-Holy-Grail-7316-ECC186-PQ-D-Getter-Vacuum-Tubes-/262456383396?hash=item3d1b9e97a4:g:~JgAAOSwvgdW3vDx

Are they really worth that much?

heiney9

Nightfall wrote: »

@heiney9 what do you know about these $250 per tube Amperex 12AU7's?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Amperex-12au7-Holy-Grail-7316-ECC186-PQ-D-Getter-Vacuum-Tubes-/262456383396?hash=item3d1b9e97a4:g:~JgAAOSwvgdW3vDx

Are they really worth that much?

No, not worth even half that, IMO. There are 2 camps when it comes to a "true" 7316 tube. The 7316 is supposed to be a "super" ECC82. Once camps says they are leaps and bounds better than a standard Holland made ECC82. They come in both long and short plate versions. The other camp (where I reside) say they are basically the same as the ECC82. The production numbers were low, they probably were made with tighter tolerances, but early Holland tubes are already fantastic.

A real 7316 will have a production code of Ct(x). Ct0 - Ct6. Ct0 is the earliest long plate version. IIRC, Ct3-Ct6 were short plates. I can't make out the 1st line of code in the photo's, but the only short plate D getter from Holland is the 1959 - 7316 tube. People inflate and pay high prices for these based on scarcity and lore. If you find a pair of Ctx 7316's for a reasonable price get them, you won't be disappointed. But don't pay the premium, it;s not worth it IMO compared to a really good pair of Holland made ECC82's from the same period.

The 7316 was only made in Heerlen Holland and only has the Ct(x) code. All others labeled 7316 not made in Holland and Ct(x) are imposters.

Other's may tell you these are the best tubes ever. I disagree based on current prices.

H9

heiney9

If you take a 1959 Holland ECC82 (Gf3), short plate, large halo getter tube that's well matched vs. 1959 Holland 7316 (Ct3), short plate, d getter they will sound so similar you'll wonder why you paid $40 for one and $125 for the other.

IMO

H9

mikeyb128

I did learn the minor difference between the short and long plate of 1959, 14mm vs 17mm. My amperex 12au7 are short plates, large halo getter. I'm looking for another pair to try them out as a quad.

H9, you are right about the black plates having excessive bass. I went from Hammond organ tubes to the BP and had to dial back my sub. These mullards might just have tighter bass, which seems like less afte the BP. Turned up the little SB 1000 a couple notches and all is well.

mikeyb128

Nightfall wrote: »

@heiney9 what do you know about these $250 per tube Amperex 12AU7's?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Amperex-12au7-Holy-Grail-7316-ECC186-PQ-D-Getter-Vacuum-Tubes-/262456383396?hash=item3d1b9e97a4:g:~JgAAOSwvgdW3vDx

Are they really worth that much?

Wow! Holy grail.. seems over priced to me.

Nightfall

There's a lot like that, for just a pair.

$700 - http://www.ebay.com/itm/2x-ECC802S-TELEFUNKEN-tubes-NOS-E82CC-12AU7-WA-ECC-802-S-/282006015779?hash=item41a8de4f23:g:w5sAAOSwFNZWuiB4

...or even $500 for a single - http://www.ebay.com/itm/NOS-MULLARD-TUBE-B329-MADE-IN-GREAT-BRITIAN-SIMULAR-ECC82-12AU7-TESTED-105-NEW-/181992267998?hash=item2a5f95a0de:g:ChEAAOSwL7VWmKfH

$4,300 - http://www.ebay.com/itm/Western-Electric-300B-Pair-Vintage-NOS-Rare-Military-1988-last-made-for-NASA-/182061827777?hash=item2a63bb06c1:g:5k0AAOSw2ENW769o

$2,500 - http://www.ebay.com/itm/Two-New-Old-Stock-Western-Electric-274B-Tubes-Boxes-Engraved-Bases-/182160239790?hash=item2a6998acae:g:CVQAAOSwepJXVFwR

heiney9

When in doubt about tubes I track the prices over several months to get an idea of what they sell for. One can ask anything they want, but it's the completed sales that really matter. In some cases, yes, the tubes sell for that much. I know original 300b's can bring a lot of $$$.

Another tube that goes for a lot, are any of the original Genelax tubes, especially NIB w/documentation. While I'm sure they are great tubes, the cost far outweighs any advantage in sound, IMO. I'm not paying $1000 for a pair of tubes. We all have a different threshold. Me, I am a super bargain shopper for the most part. But, that entails looking at Ebay 10-20 times a day and reading and analyzing A LOT of posts and asking questions. Also you have to know exactly what you are buying.

However, lately with the new pre amp in the main rig I've been paying up for some of the best tubes. I tend to limit my spending on the secondary rigs, but the main rig, I'm willing to spend more.

I did score a pair of 1957 Amperex ECC83 Long plates, made in Holland w/foil D getter, very strong for $55. Generally a nice pair like this sells for $200+, but I've been looking for a reasonably price pair for awhile.

The great thing about Ebay is, if you miss out on one sale, in most cases there's another sale for the same item in similar condition in the near future. Although (reasonably priced) long plate Hamburg tubes are elusive sometimes. I have noticed over the past 5 years a slight diminishing of supply for the older, harder to find 12A*7/ECC8* tubes.

H9

Faustin

What are some thoughts on some of the used tubes that have been labelled for organ manufacturers? I bought a pair of 12ax7's that were labelled for Hammond that to the best of my research were made by Mullard. IIRC I paid $20 - $25 for the pair. They tested strong and said great. That seems to be an area where the prices have not gotten too ridiculous yet.

mikeyb128

I have some Hammond organ tubes, and sound very nice. They are screened for audio use and have very low microphonics. I think the seller said they were GE. I payed 40 bucks for 4, and test as NOS on my buddies tester.

Nightfall

Rebadged tubes is where you find the good deals. I got four Hammond 12AX7's that are Amperex made in Holland for $40.

heiney9

Organ tubes are great because they are selected tubes for low noise. But they can be from any manufacturer, so careful analysis is in order.

How did you determine they were Mullard made? Remember Japan also made tubes on Mullard machinery. Still good tubes, perhaps not as good as true early short plate Mullards. The main thing is at the price you paid, even if they aren't Mullards, you didn't over pay. In general Hammond tubes are mostly Mullard or Heerlen made. Baldwin's are generally US made. Not always but mostly.

If you know what to look for as far as construction, rebranded tubes can be a great bargain. Many Dynaco, Fisher and Marantz gear had Telefunken's even though they are privately branded.

I have found a few Zenith branded tubes that were Valvo Hamburg tubes or Siemens Munich tubes.

H9

mikeyb128

heiney9 wrote: »

Organ tubes are great because they are selected tubes for low noise. But they can be from any manufacturer, so careful analysis is in order.

How did you determine they were Mullard made? Remember Japan also made tubes on Mullard machinery. Still good tubes, perhaps not as good as true early short plate Mullards. The main thing is at the price you paid, even if they aren't Mullards, you didn't over pay. In general Hammond tubes are mostly Mullard or Heerlen made. Baldwin's are generally US made. Not always but mostly.

If you know what to look for as far as construction, rebranded tubes can be a great bargain. Many Dynaco, Fisher and Marantz gear had Telefunken's even though they are privately branded.

I have found a few Zenith branded tubes that were Valvo Hamburg tubes or Siemens Munich tubes.

H9

Makes me wonder if my hommond tubes are actually GE.

Faustin

"Makes me wonder if my hommond tubes are actually GE. "

Hey Mikey, do they have a 3 digit manufacturers code on them. If so, that is generally the best way to tell. Let me knowif you need links to find the lists.


""i]How did you determine they were Mullard made? [/i]

Heiney, The tubes are silk screen " Made in Great Britain"
Right above that they are marked "1022-618" Around on the other side (which is hard to read, but in the right light etc it is very clear) they are marked "c3" and then under that "B5K1" Don't have my notes in front of me to decipher the code, but if I remember correctly that is a typical Mullard code with the "B" indicating the Blackburn factory. They are also "flashers" when they come on.

Also, interesting story about relabelled tubes. A couple of weeks ago I received a text message from a guy I had bought a pre amp from a while back. He knew that I was dabbling in tube gear and said he was at a Goodwill store near him, which is about 60 miles north of me, and saw a console Fischer stereo for $30. The 12ax7's were marked Fischer but said "Made in Germany". I'm thinking Telefunkens. I am not sure about the rest of the tubes etc, but I told hime to pay the $30 and run. I don't think he bought it because he did not get back to me. Anyway, I think the relabelled tubes can be a good way to get some nice tubes and not pay the stupid prices that are out there.

I could use some help identifying a couple of tubes I have. One is an Amperex tube marked Made in Holland. It is a 12AU7. Gray plates with a slant D getter. The other print is challenging to read unless you have it in good light and at the right angle, but it looks like "84 K6 and possibly another figure" and under that the classic Heerlen triangle with a 7J next to it. Any other info is appreciated.

Another couple of tubes are RCA that are marked "Made in Gr Britain" They have a foil stamp. I will have to dig them out to get more info. Thinking they may be Mullard

heiney9

c3 isn't a recognized code. Gf(x) is the code for ECC82 short plate, I6(x) is the code for ECC83 short plate (you don't say which it is). But many times the top line is smudged or gone completely. With the later tubes this can be an issue since you can't be sure (based on codes) if it's 1965 or 1975. From about 1970-1975 (end of production for most Mullard and Heerlen tubes) they will have a solid disc getter with dimples.

Fisher gear almost always had relabeled Telefunken's.

K6(x) is a long plate ECC82. "Delta triangle" is Heerlen Holland. "7" would be 1957. "J" would be the month. Is the "D" getter on a post? Early Holland tubes have a "D" getter w/foil, but some are attached by a short post, some are attached to the plate tab or mica.

Also with these earlier tubes (mostly long plates) you can't assume because it says "made in Holland" or made in "England" they are made there. I have several pairs of early Amperex white label and Bugle Boy tubes that say "made in Holland", but they are Valvo Hamburg tubes.

The CODES, tell it all, not the print. Later short plate tubes don't seem to have this issue as much.

I have a very early Telefunken labeled tube that is actually a very early Siemens Munich tube.

Euro top line codes:

Gf(x) = ECC82 short plate
K6(x) =ECC82 long plate

I6(x) = ECC83 short plate (found either between the pins or lower portion of the tube)
mC(x) = ECC83 long plate (found either between the pins or lower portion of the tube)
f9(x) = ECC 83 long plate (most I've seen I've seen are 1958 and 1959 Mullards)

H9

mikeyb128

Just tried out a quad of brimar 13D5 long plates with a big ring getter, date codes say 1960. These are absolutely fantastic! Laid back like a Mullard but more balanced, not so much emphasis on the midrange, more extension in the highs, not harsh but very sweet, and open.. Oh man such a nice sound stage. I think these are keepers! They are NOS and I only put about 5 hours on them yesterday and am loving them.

heiney9

Yep, I have a quad of the gray long plate large halo's and a quad of the black 1/2 plate D getter's.

Fivre's are the same tube, made in Italy.

Brimar's are Europes best kept secret. However, not near as many manufactured as Mullards.

Also for these you have to look at the codes as many Brimar's are actually Blackburn Mullards. There are (2) numbering systems for Brimar's so they can be hard to nail down.

A short cut is to look at the (2) mica's, there are always 2 larger holes in each mica if they are Brimar's.

STC, Footscray are where most Brimar's are manufactured.

Geez, I'm giving away all my secrets.....lol.

H9

heiney9

I also have a pair of 1953 Brimar CV491 long black plates w/square getter. I'm on the hunt for an inexpensive pair to complete my quad.

H9

mikeyb128

I will have to double check the date codes but these did not have the Mullard date codes. Was a 3 digit code I THINK is was 1H1 will double check and snap some pics when I get home.

heiney9

For Brimar

3 digit code followed by a / and a 4 digit code. Earlier tubes have a 3 digit code followed by / with a 3 digit code.

1H1/1861.

1H1 is the date code the 3rd digit is the year. In this case since they are long gray plates w/large halo it's 1961.

1861 is the identifier (Ecc82, Ecc83, CV491, CV4001, etc, etc.)

The 2nd way Brimar and Mullard tubes are marked looks like this




First photo: KB/AD - "K" meaning civilian tube, "B" meaning UK approved, "AD" is the manufacture code - Thorn-AEI (Brimar), Rochester

The second photo: Broad Arrow is the Gov't mark and the date code is below "WG" - "W" being the year, "G" being the month.

Two letters were used. This was allowed up to January 1st 1965. In this scheme the first letter A = 1945 and so on, and the second letter A=January and so on. Letters I and O were not used. Thus AA = January 1945, NF = June 1957.

So the year "W" would be 1966 the month "G" is July

"DA" is the Mullard Blackburn code: KB/DA

H9

heiney9

Here's where that info comes from

http://www.tubecollector.org/cv-valves.htm

mikeyb128

Wow, some good info here. Thanks H9. Going to check the brimars for more codes as the labels are partially rubbed off, and for the large holes in the top mica.

heiney9

Both mica's will have 2 large holes.



If you look closely you can see the 2 larger holes (pic on left), they line up on the 2 mica's.

H9

heiney9

Here's the other Brimar chart for codes.

http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/g8hqp/audio/brimarcodes.html

mikeyb128

heiney9 wrote: »

Both mica's will have 2 large holes.



If you look closely you can see the 2 larger holes (pic on left), they line up on the 2 mica's.

H9

Mine look identical to these. Same printing as well.

Faustin

Ok.I looked at the Hammond tube again in different light and angles with a magnifiying glass and I am pretty sure the top line is I63. The I is very smudged and the 6 is smudged a bit, making it look more like a C. It is a short plate and has a halo getter. From my research it would be the short plate with the 3 being a change code. The 2nd line of B5K1 would indicate Blackburn factory, 1965, November, 1st week. Sound correct?

The Amperex 12au7's getter is attached by a rod to the mica.

Also, I agree that the codes tell everything. It is interesting how hard it is sometimes to find the codes. I have looked at some tubes and been frustrated because I cannot find anything to go by. Then, later in the day or the next day I will check it out again and lo and behold I am in just the right light etc and there it is.

heiney9

13D5 is an industrial designation, but they are just regular Brimar 12AU7's. Great tubes, but the industrial designation doesn't really make them any different than the one's marked "12AU7".

I guess what I'm trying to say is don't pay more for 13D5's than a comparable 12AU7. Brimar's are fairly scarce so buy accordingly.

IMO, Brimar long gray plates are an excellent tube, they are more balanced than the Mullard lp's, but they give up some of the "magic" of the Mullards. The "air" is missing, the "euphoria" is missing slightly.

Brimar black plates are where it's at, IMO. The magic of Mullards, but more balanced. Bp's are really creamy and sooooo smooth.

I like both tubes but the Bp's get the nod.

But with tubes, it can be very system dependent and it also depends on what other tubes are in the mix.

H9