Debating upgrading to hdmi preamp or AVR from my Reference 50

gmcman

I would like to keep the SQ of my seperates, but add in the flexibility of hdmi as I may upgrade my display to UHD. I thought about a good AVR that I could use my 200.2 as a main 2ch amp but not sure if I could do this with hdmi as the input.

Was looking for a Ref 70 but will it function or pass audio if the video signal was higher than 1080P.

I like the sound of the B&K but don't know where to look if I move from at least the preamp section.

Reason I'm looking to expand is I'm not sure if I can use a digital coax audio from the hdmi source at the same time. Will devices allow digital coax audio out to a preamp along with hdmi for video to a seperate display?

Just another passage in the rabbit hole.

Nightfall

I can't speak for every piece of equipment but the HDMI inputs on the Yamaha RX-V667 I used to use were shot and I ran HDMI to the TV and digital coax and optical to the AVR at the same time.

gmcman

I should add that I was looking at the Marantz 7702 but this could be slightly out of my budget right now. May not be totally out if I could find one at a good price but I want to speculate for any future proofing the ref 70 is out.

I'm not versed in the current crop of preamps, I don't need all the bells and whistles but it seems the 7702 mk2 is a good place to look.

mikeyb128

gmcman wrote: »

I should add that I was looking at the Marantz 7702 but this could be slightly out of my budget right now. May not be totally out if I could find one at a good price but I want to speculate for any future proofing the ref 70 is out.

I'm not versed in the current crop of preamps, I don't need all the bells and whistles but it seems the 7702 mk2 is a good place to look.

I would say get one if you can swing it. I've seen returbs around the 1000 dollar mark. I got mine when it came out for almost msrp, but it's dead sexy and is easy to use. Not to mention it sound great!

tonyb

I would not look at the ref 70, your only going to run into compatibility issues along the way.

You don't even really need a pre/pro 4k compatible, but you will need HDMI for the audio side. 4K sources can be connected directly to the TV, streams can be directly by the TV's own doing.

I know your conundrum, being a B&k fanboy myself. Hard to give up the musical sound of those units. You want a pre/pro with HDMI without sacrificing the music side of things.

3 come to mind, a tad expensive but used might be in your ball park.
Arcam
Anthem
Cary cinema 12

The first 2 have all the bells and whistles one comes to expect. The Cary has no video circuits and simply passes the signal on and is well known for it's musical side. Used I've seem them around 1800. You'd be hard pressed to find a bad review anywhere from anyone. Cheaper yet is the Cary 11a, for around 12-1400 used. Has hdmi, decodes the newer formats, a more minimalistic pre/pro but the sound is on par with the cinema 12 musically. Again, no video circuits as Cary figures it's better to let the source piece do all the video decoding and helps keep the audio signal cleaner.

The first 2 are no slouches in their own right on the musical side of things either.

gmcman

Ok, thanks for the info.

I guess an AVR is out, I already moved to seperates so safe bet that's where I will likely stay for now.

After searching around, it seems DTS-x would be a nice addition. I don't have a 4K set, likely in the near future, I surely don't want something that will be outdated in 6 months.

If I had to place a preamp on a pedestal for what I'm after it would likely be the Marantz 8802. A bit out of my range but if one came up used I may consider it. The 7702 mk2 is a close second and this is mainly for the SQ, hdmi flexibility, as well as other portable devices I could hook up.

I like the fact I can add many speakers to the HT setup as well.

The 3 you listed are nice, I will keep them in consideration as I have time to figure this out.

Emlyn

One short term option is to get a Blu-Ray player with multichannel analog outputs and connect those to the Ref 50 and run HDMI to the TV. If you are going to upgrade your display and source to 4K UHD within the next year you may want to hold off on doing anything until late this year when it becomes more clear about what will be available in those formats and what it is going to take to get the best viewing experience from the new 4K format. I am in the "wait and see" position myself right now.

trj

There are receivers/preamps that will do separate audio and video. Like Nightfall mentioned, I have yamaha 667 too and I can do audio video separately all day long. But you will have to test out different receivers in person to make sure it does. Manufacturers not really mention it anywhere.
However, you mention UHD (4K). Is it safe to assume you are looking into atmos and DTS:X for audio?
I am one of those who keeps equipment for a long time, so want to reduce cable clutter as much as possible. I suggest look for something with HDMI 2.0 and HDCP 2.2. I am waiting for the new ATMOS, DTS:X, HDCP crap and HDMI cable certification to be finalized before I update all my cables and equipment. Tonyb's suggestion is what I'd go with.
Currently I have HDMI cables from all different standards (1.3, 1.4a) and different lengths each bunched with velcro separately. Still drives me nuts when I clean back of the equipment. Worst is the SACD analog cables. 10 cables(6 analog channels, 3 - Y Pb Pr, 1 digital co-ax) coming out of it where a single HDMI could do the job. Now, add external amps, the interconnects multiply (not much you can do here). But with HDMI cables you at least reduce a lot of cable clutter coming from sources. I am planning on getting various lengths(may be even different colors) of cables as required once the standard is finalized. Reduces the clutter and easy to switch if needed.

polkfarmboy

Snag an Anthem avm 50v with ARC and 3d for around $1900 on agon or my Anthem D2v for $2400. Wonderful for music and movies.

mantis

the only thing on the market that would retain your sound quality would be the NAD T187. It's a fine preamp and worth checking out.

tonyb

If your thinking about future proofing.....forget it, you'll never do it longer than a few years as the industry constantly changes to drive sales. You do however need HDMI in it's current version to stay in step.

Having one system for both HT and music has been my Achilles heel also, but I do what I can. It has not held me back from enjoying 4k though so don't give too much sway or lose too much sleep over 4k as there is still too little available to watch anyway.

Emlyn

mantis wrote: »

the only thing on the market that would retain your sound quality would be the NAD T187. It's a fine preamp and worth checking out.

Dan, have you had the opportunity to work with a Marantz AV-8802A installation yet? Pretty pricey new, but I would think it would be a good two channel performer based on my experience with their prior AV preamps.

tonyb

mantis wrote: »

the only thing on the market that would retain your sound quality would be the NAD T187. It's a fine preamp and worth checking out.

A worthy suggestion from another B&K fanboy.

The Nad and Marantz, as good as they are, are not in the same league as the Anthems or Cary's sound wise imho.

If you however want all the bells and whistles like Atmos-dts-x, then the Marantz might be your comfort zone. If your priority is more to the side of sound quality from a HT pre/pro that approaches separates sound quality, tough to beat the 3 I mentioned on the used markets.

Remember too, what did that ref 50 sell for new....around 3500 ? Now you'd be lucky to sell them for 400. No longer of real use for a modern HT system, but still darn fine to use as a 2 channel pre amp which I always suggest for those on a budget.

gmcman

I agree about the future proofing how it's a losing battle but I think if I can get the hdmi 2.0 and 4K pass through or even up-scaling then I will be at a good stopping point.

Crazy that I need to dive into the 4-digits to keep the sound of my $300 preamp alive and well but there's been considerable leaps forward in technology in the last year or so.

The more I look at the Anthem AVM-60 the more I like it. Price-wise it's on par with the 8802 but for a lighter budget the 7702 mk2 looks good as well.

I will keep an eye out in the upcoming months, tough choice but if one comes up used that's fine as well.

tonyb

gmcman wrote: »

I agree about the future proofing how it's a losing battle but I think if I can get the hdmi 2.0 and 4K pass through or even up-scaling then I will be at a good stopping point..

You don't need all that in the gear, the TV itself will do that. That's why when shopping for a 4k tv, buy the ones who have the top processors in them. Otherwise your paying premium prices for redundancy.

trj

I agree with tonyb, but slightly disagree too when you are looking at the cost vs redundancy. Here I am strictly talking about HT, because with audio only focus, the cables will outweigh the cost by leaps and bounds. You can buy interconnects costing more than the pre/pro

Here are the two camps(focussing on HDMI to carry signals):
First camp:
Different sources---->Do it all AVR or pre/pro----> TV (one cable)/analogs to amp.
-This means expensive pre/pro but less expensive TV/projector and less cables.

Second camp:
Different sources---->Not do it all AVR(audio only) pre/pro----> analogs to amp
Different sources---->TV for video only (a cable each to TV)
-This means expensive TV/projector and more expense in cables if you are planning on analog audio interconnects.

It depends on how many sources you have for 4k or even 1080p. If you have more than 3 sources, I would rather have AVR do everything and then send a single video out signal to TV. Most TVs come with 3 HDMI inputs.

If you have one or two sources and don't mind running extra cables, I would let the TV take care of video processing and go with a cheaper audio only pre/pro.
You are going to be spending a lot in cables if you are running multiple sources to TV and audio to pre/pro separately. Plus the cable clutter.

I already gave an example of SACD player with 10 cables coming out which can be handled with one HDMI cable. Even an acceptable set of 6 channel interconnects(bluejeans) will cost almost $100. Now, if you have multiple such devices, you are easily going to cross your budget.
I am looking to purchase a Blu-ray player which can do SACD so I can cut back to one single player instead of separate blu ray and SACD player and one HDMI cable. Something on the lines of Sony S370 and let my receiver do the DSD processing. Reduces the amount of gear, cables and remotes. Now that 4k is out, I am waiting for a player that can do 4k and SACD via single HDMI. See my point?

I know future proofing is a futile attempt. But right new products are still being released with firmware upgrades to support latest formats. Some work, some don't. I have been reading Denon/Marantz receivers not being so friendly with latest firmware release to process DTS:X. I am waiting for the dust to settle with software/hardware compatibility issue before I jump 4k/atmos.

@gmcman if you need a processor right away, try out the marantz 8802 or anthem avm-60. Anthem would be my personal choice. Else, you should wait for the 2016 products to be released from various manufacturers. I think outlaw audio has something in the works for pre/pro that will do atmos and DTS:X. But if you are only looking to make use of B&K 200.2, Marantz NR1606 is a good alternative that will do atmos at 5.2.2 with all the formats processing handled within.

Polkie2009

It will be interesting to see what Outlaw Audio will bring to the table in their next series of a prepro . Those Anthem prepros look awesome and they seem to have good reviews. Another one I've seriously been scoping out is that Yammy CX-A100 prepro unit.

tonyb

LOL....I was thinking somewhere in the middle of "one cable" vs. a cluster f**k of cables.

HDMI cables are relatively cheap too. The only analog cables you'd need is if your running a SACD player or separate dac for the musical side.

I'm a big proponent of using outdated higher end pre/pro's for dedicated SS 2 channel listening. The way this industry works though, even HDMI becomes outdated every so often forcing you to anty up for newer gear. Compatibility issues arise with x component not seeing y component because of outdated software or firmware.

Not so sure I'd look at receivers to take on the job of dedicated music listening unless they were top of the line.....even then, a crap shoot. Marantz makes nice pre/pro's, not knocking them at all, and Nad is certainly in the realm of good sound itself. If you however want to get closer to the sound of separates from a HT rig, imho you have to go with the top processors.

B&k at it's time was one of the top pre/pro's in the game, that's why the OP is having a hard time letting go of it, thinking he won't come close to that sound he's used to. Maybe not in a receiver so much, but todays pre/pro's I think surpass it easily. Trick is, balancing price with compatibility and sound quality that can hold you into the 4k reality of the next few years.

Set your priorities I guess, if the swanky formats like Atmos and DTS-X are your cup of tea, makes sense to look in a certain direction. If you hold SQ as your top priority, you may want to look in another direction, that's all I'm sayin'.

Polkie2009

I wish we had more feedback from members here that are running Atmos systems for HT.Hopefully , there will be a boatload of blu rays being released in Atmos this year. The Yammy prepro I was looking at is actually a CX-A5100 prepro unit, sorry for the misprint. PFB, those Anthem units are gorgeous.

trj

tonyb wrote: »

LOL....I was thinking somewhere in the middle of "one cable" vs. a cluster f**k of cables.

HDMI cables are relatively cheap too. The only analog cables you'd need is if your running a SACD player or separate dac for the musical side.

I'm a big proponent of using outdated higher end pre/pro's for dedicated SS 2 channel listening. The way this industry works though, even HDMI becomes outdated every so often forcing you to anty up for newer gear. Compatibility issues arise with x component not seeing y component because of outdated software or firmware.

Not so sure I'd look at receivers to take on the job of dedicated music listening unless they were top of the line.....even then, a crap shoot. Marantz makes nice pre/pro's, not knocking them at all, and Nad is certainly in the realm of good sound itself. If you however want to get closer to the sound of separates from a HT rig, imho you have to go with the top processors.

B&k at it's time was one of the top pre/pro's in the game, that's why the OP is having a hard time letting go of it, thinking he won't come close to that sound he's used to. Maybe not in a receiver so much, but todays pre/pro's I think surpass it easily. Trick is, balancing price with compatibility and sound quality that can hold you into the 4k reality of the next few years.

Set your priorities I guess, if the swanky formats like Atmos and DTS-X are your cup of tea, makes sense to look in a certain direction. If you hold SQ as your top priority, you may want to look in another direction, that's all I'm sayin'.

Thats why I put "HT" in my long post. I am assuming OP is looking for HT plus SQ for 2 channel because he mentions 4k. If OP is looking for 2CH setup my post is completely useless.

gmcman

trj wrote: »

I know future proofing is a futile attempt. But right new products are still being released with firmware upgrades to support latest formats. Some work, some don't. I have been reading Denon/Marantz receivers not being so friendly with latest firmware release to process DTS:X. I am waiting for the dust to settle with software/hardware compatibility issue before I jump 4k/atmos.

@gmcman if you need a processor right away, try out the marantz 8802 or anthem avm-60. Anthem would be my personal choice. Else, you should wait for the 2016 products to be released from various manufacturers.

Definitely don't need a processor right away, I agree on waiting it out for awhile and I'm curious how this DTS-X will play out.

tonyb wrote: »

todays pre/pro's I think surpass it easily. Trick is, balancing price with compatibility and sound quality that can hold you into the 4k reality of the next few years.

I agree the newer crop surpasses my Ref 50, just wasn't looking to dive into the hole again right now.

That's definitely swaying my decision as I'm confident 4K will be around for awhile. I'm just not sure I want a maximum of 1080P in a device with 4K becoming more abundant. It's not a deal breaker as discussed earlier as I can let the display work all that out. Really comes down to what hdmi versions are being introduced and adapted.

tonyb wrote: »

Set your priorities I guess, if the swanky formats like Atmos and DTS-X are your cup of tea, makes sense to look in a certain direction. If you hold SQ as your top priority, you may want to look in another direction, that's all I'm sayin'.

I do hold SQ as high/top priority especially for my CD/SACD, as well as the high bitrate audio. The Atmos and DTS-X sound very appealing and I want to say it's something I would want if the reviews are positive. Looking for a processor with high SQ and doubling as a HT receiver is definitely the tricky part of the balancing act...without coughing up a college fund..lol.

gmcman

trj wrote: »

Thats why I put "HT" in my long post. I am assuming OP is looking for HT plus SQ for 2 channel because he mentions 4k. If OP is looking for 2CH setup my post is completely useless.

HT plus SQ is correct, or to be more precise...SQ plus HT....

5.1 is adequate, but the way I want to arrange the room, I could benefit from the added channels.

trj

gmcman wrote: »

I agree the newer crop surpasses my Ref 50, just wasn't looking to dive into the hole again right now.

That's definitely swaying my decision as I'm confident 4K will be around for awhile. I'm just not sure I want a maximum of 1080P in a device with 4K becoming more abundant. It's not a deal breaker as discussed earlier as I can let the display work all that out. Really comes down to what hdmi versions are being introduced and adapted.

I do hold SQ as high/top priority especially for my CD/SACD, as well as the high bitrate audio. The Atmos and DTS-X sound very appealing and I want to say it's something I would want if the reviews are positive. Looking for a processor with high SQ and doubling as a HT receiver is definitely the tricky part of the balancing act...without coughing up a college fund..lol.

Here is the breakdown as I understand.
You want latest atmos, DTS:X, 4k and sound quality of B&K.
You want this as a combo system for HT and multi channel audio.

Don't know about DTS:X but atmos is really nice if you can possibly rearrange/tear down the ceiling for proper speaker placement. Unless you personally experience it, its difficult to explain, but if you have someone where you can go and test it out to see if its your cup of tea, please try it.
For 4k TV, I doubt many will be purchasing a 1080p TV right now because of 4k TVs prices coming down. 4k projector is another thing though.

For a combo system:
-You want a processor that will do your 4k processing/upscaling duty. Essential that you have HDCP 2.2 in the processor if you want to avoid the mess of cables and expensive source equipment which will have dual HDMI outs.
This is still in the air as the standards are still not set.
-You want a 4k and atmos/DTS:X source, that would possibly be a HTPC or a UHD blu ray player.
Already UHD Blu ray players are out but are expensive.
-You want pre-outs if you go AVR route so you can use your amplifiers. Pre/pro only, of course it will have pre-outs.
Both are equally expensive but a quality AVR will give you choice to run the ATMOS speakers with its own amps. My choice is yamaha 3050 and up because I am not going to buy 11 amplifiers to go full atmos.


Choice is yours. Buy an AVR that can do 11.1 so you can have 7.1.4 setup and use your existing amplifiers for 2ch and enjoy atmos media.
Or buy a pre/pro and purchase amps for every channel.

Both can be done, but completely depends on your willingness on how much you want to spend.

PS: high speed HDMI cables that will do 18GBps will be required for 4k. So, don't discount that. The certified cables are yet to hit the market.

polkfarmboy

I have owned onkyo, integra, marantz and denon but yet nothing touches anthem for music.

gmcman

trj, that was a great assessment. I have a spare Denon AVR and two other amps, ST-202 and a MX-1000 and in a pinch I could use these as power sources.

Just for sake of discussion, I could go with the AVM-60 and use my 200.2 for the mains and the other 3 amps for the rest of the speakers. Or, I could go all crazy with the MRX-1120 and this would cover everything using the 200.2 for the mains....albeit an expensive alternative.

I'm curious as to how the Anthem AVR compares to the AVM-60 processor despite having all the added video circuitry.

I will look to test drive a nice Atmos setup first as this plan is still in the developmental stage. The DTS-X isn't a deal breaker but I like the idea of it.

I can't really think of a lot of 4K material handling I will need outside the display device so that could make the decision easier but it all seems to go hand in hand with the current versions of hdmi/hdcp with the preamps and AVR's.

I also like to buy something and keep it for awhile, and I think I would be able to get some atmos speakers installed fairly easily if everything comes together but still need to check it out first.

polkfarmboy

The AVM is garbage for music and has nothing to do with the Anthem D2 design. Infact if you check out the product releases Anthem is releasing a sperate unit for analogue sound. It remains to be seen if we will ever see a D3 but if we do expect to pay at least $6000 and not $2600 street price that the AVM 60 is currently going for.

Polkie2009

I was hoping the AVM series did 2 channel well also. Now I see that the D2 series doesn't do Atmos or DTS X, correct?

polkfarmboy

The d2v is pre atmos but the avm60 will accomplish it and its the main appeal and selling point of the new unit.

tonyb

polkfarmboy wrote: »

The d2v is pre atmos but the avm60 will accomplish it and its the main appeal and selling point of the new unit.

So you are in essence sacrificing SQ on the musical side for HT gizmos with the avm60 ?

Not exactly a selling point in my book, especially at that price range.

gmcman

tonyb wrote: »

polkfarmboy wrote: »

The d2v is pre atmos but the avm60 will accomplish it and its the main appeal and selling point of the new unit.

So you are in essence sacrificing SQ on the musical side for HT gizmos with the avm60 ?

Not exactly a selling point in my book, especially at that price range.

The way I understand it is you sacrifice a little with the MRX-720-1120 AVR to the AVM-60 by way of the a/d converter with the AVM-60 having the higher quality analog input.

As far as the D3 to the AVM-60...not sure but the price gap is a key issue for me as the D3 is just way too far out of my range for any current component with technology rapidly changing.

So from a SQ standpoint, the AVM-60 should best the AVR 1120 for 2CH or from the analog inputs.

polkfarmboy

Yes of course the avm 60 will best it plus it has ARC but dont expect really good analog performance. As they are releasing another stand alone analog unit that is nothing to do with HT. This makes me think that there is no D3 ever going to be released as its almost like they split the unit into two parts. The company now is a division of the guys that own Martin Logan, paradigm so the bottom dollar for stockholders is the main focus for Anthem.