2.3TL Rebuild Starts Now

machone · June 2016

Ok
Nobody has an opinion about my question concerning internal wiring?

Schurkey · June 2016

machone wrote: »

Ok
Nobody has an opinion about my question concerning internal wiring?

Given the limited wire length, and the potential amperage involved, I suspect 16 gauge is fine.

I bought a roll of 12-gauge, military-grade silver-plated copper wire with Teflon insulation, but I found that have absolutely zero ambition to actually turn it into a wire harness. Maybe in a few years.

Overall, I'm not a "wires 'n' cables" guy. I bet the OEM harness is entirely adequate as long as there's no corrosion on the connectors.

gmcman · July 2016

Very nice work on the 2.3's, looks like you are well on your way to a sweet listening room.

Something I may suggest, might not make a difference but I want to speculate that you might want to try removing that stand on the right wall with what looks like two speakers in the stand. Appears to be right in line with that first reflection and personally I would remove the 2 speakers between your 2.3's just to compare the difference.

Open that area up a little and maybe move the 2.3's just slightly closer together. I bet that cabinet on the right tries to sing along with the speakers and could be taking away from your overall experience.

Also, with my 2B's, what made a difference was getting the front of the speaker plane DEAD EVEN with each other, not basing on the distance from the back wall as my wall had a good 1/2" tolerance... also using a level getting them both in the same vertical plane.

Keep up the good work!

machone · July 2016

Thanks for your comments gmcman.

I can use all the help I can get!

The bookcase on the right is temporary and I am still working on speaker location.
I have an old laser level that I can use to check to see if they are on plane.

gmcman · July 2016

I tried a laser level also, works ok but I found it easier to take a straight edge and run it across the front of the speaker and you can see where it's in line by eyeballing down the straight edge or even eyeballing the front of the speaker.

machone · July 2016

Awe

I wanted to put in my signature that they were "laser aligned"

gmcman · August 2016

machone wrote: »

Awe I wanted to put in my signature that they were "laser aligned"

I've enjoyed this thread as I'm pretty much at the point of your first post with regards to the progress of mine. Great write-up!

machone · August 2016

I have been painting my listening room for a few weeks so to make things easier to move around I took the 2.3s off the spikes. While off the spikes I have been moving them around searching for the ultimate position. I ended up near the same position but slightly wider.

Yesterday I painted the right hand wall. It is a custom wall with integrated cabinets each with doors. I had to remove all of the doors leaving holes in the wall. Last night I sat down and played a few cds. From the first note I could tell that imaging was much better with the cabinet doors removed. After several test cds I decided to spike them. After spiking it was not as good!?. They were not as warm. Perhaps with spikes they need to be moved closer to the wall than without spikes. They are currently 8" off the wall to the back of the speaker.

I plan to listen again tonight and then take them off the spikes to see if I can duplicate the sound.

My guess is that the holes in the wall removed the first reflection point. If this is any indication as to how the room can be improved with future treatments I can't wait because it is the best they have ever sounded.

honestaquarian · August 2016

Pics!!

machone · August 2016

Tonight

honestaquarian · August 2016

YAY!!!

machone · August 2016

Photos of the wall.

honestaquarian · August 2016

Great stuff!!
Try these experiments (one at a time of course)
Move the couch back three feet
Move the speakers out to 12 inches to 24 inches from the wall behind them.

Let me know what you hear.

machone · August 2016

I moved them to 24". Imaging is good and the bass begins to thin.
At 12" imaging is good and bass is good and tight.
Can't really move the couch back more than about a foot.
All in all an interesting experiment.

The cabinet doors are back on so it is a mute point now. I just wanted to note the differences between doors on and doors off.

The bottom line is that I need to add room treatments and tweak the speaker locations so this will be an on going process.

gmcman · August 2016

I would temporarily remove the two inside speakers, move them behind the couch somewhere, then place the 2.3's a little closer together....get them a little farther from the side walls.

Try them at about 5' apart, (cabinet edge not center of speaker) then get the front of the couch no closer than 5'. Then start moving the couch farther back as well as the speakers apart from each other. Moving them just an inch at a time will make a difference.

honestaquarian · August 2016

gmcman wrote: »

I would temporarily remove the two inside speakers, move them behind the couch somewhere, then place the 2.3's a little closer together....get them a little farther from the side walls.

Try them at about 5' apart, (cabinet edge not center of speaker) then get the front of the couch no closer than 5'. Then start moving the couch farther back as well as the speakers apart from each other. Moving them just an inch at a time will make a difference.

YEAH
What HE said!

machone · September 2016

Well I ended up with 79" between the cabinets and the backs 7" off the wall.
I am going to spike them tonight.
I also 3D printed a handy dandy string anchor to help with alignment.

honestaquarian · September 2016

Patent pending❔

Mike Reeter · September 2016

Just an observation, I would either try to move your Audio Rack back toward the wall or your speakers out from the wall a couple of inches. The rack sides are messin' with your imaging.

79" apart seems a little wide, I would move them a few inches inward. But, I know all rooms are different and I'm certainly not trying to tell you how to set-up your rig. Just a couple of suggestions.

gmcman · September 2016

When I was moving my 2B's around recently, I tried them closer to the rear wall and this put them 2" behind the front edge of my dinosaur RPTV. The bass tightened up but that phantom center imaging really broke up and I lost alot of detail, they were 2" in front before.

I agree to try them closer together ...doest hurt.

I also tried the string thing before, once I had it just right by the string gap on the speaker, I eyeballed down the front edge looking from the sides observing how the flat front of one speaker should blend just perfectly into the other speaker, and it was off...but looked right by the string, just something else to check.

Also, a level works great to ensure they are both vertical.

Mike Reeter · September 2016

gmcman wrote: »

When I was moving my 2B's around recently, I tried them closer to the rear wall and this put them 2" behind the front edge of my dinosaur RPTV. The bass tightened up but that phantom center imaging really broke up and I lost alot of detail, they were 2" in front before.

I used to have a cabinet rack and then went to open shelf style, made a huge difference in imaging.

If you can situate your head between the speakers and close to the back wall, you can hear music behind the front plane of the speaker. Anything "solid" between the SDA's will skew the center image somewhat.

machone · September 2016

Thanks guys. I am happy to listen to all comments and suggestions.

The rack won't go back any further. At some point I will replace it with an open design or something.

I did eye ball the speakers to double check the string alugnment.

If I move the speakers closer together they don't sound as good. They are not very musical. Closer together I hear a sound but at 79" I feel the sound. It sounds and feels like a guitar is in the room instead of listening to a recording. BTW the front of the sofa is around 72" from the front of the speakers.

However, closer together I believe the image is wider and better balanced. At 79 the sda effect seems slightly biased to the left. I started at 72" and worked up to 79". The way the music sounds and feels at 79 is the best overall; that is until I spiked them. My first impression is that they are too tight or sterile. But I must say that Natalie Cole's voice is outstanding.

So the best location on sliders is not the best location on spikes

and you know how much of pita they are to move on spikes.

That's where I left off as I am on the road this weekend.

Comments welcome.

Mike Reeter · September 2016

Keep pluggin', you'll find that ideal spot. I use a small, inexpensive hand truck to move speakers around with, makes the task much easier.

gmcman · September 2016

I would try to back away from the exact triangulated sweet spot. When my 2B's were on the short wall, the speakers were 5' apart, if I sat about 6" behind the sweet spot, everything was fine, if I moved in and crossed that point, the SDA was all over the place and you can clearly hear that you crossed that "wall". It's far more forgiving to sit behind the sweet spot than at or just short of it....if you are close then it just doesn't work.

Right now I have them on the long wall and they are 66" apart, I'm sitting about 90-100" away and I think they sound great anywhere from around 80" or just slightly more.

I was finally able to get them from 18" away from the back wall down to 9" and that made a huge difference in overall SQ.

I would try them around 6' apart and sit 7' away.

machone · September 2016

This room likes the cabinets wide.
I ended up at 7 ft between the cabinets and 7" off the wall. The front of the sofa is 102" off the wall which puts my ears at 10 feet off the wall or 99" from the front of the cabinets.
They sound very good and I might move them out from the wall a 1/2" to tighten up the bottom end.
I think this will do it until I start adding treatments.
Jeff Beck's Blow by Blow is wall to wall

machone · November 2016

I decided to upgrade the internal wiring and change out the binding posts to complete the rebuild. For the wire I ordered WireWorld Helicon 16OFC. The binding posts are Cardas copper/gold plated.

I am currently sourcing the quick connects for the wiring harness. The first ones I got in are of poor quality so I am going to try again to source quality quick connects.

The question I have is should I forget the connectors and solder everything? I did this on my 1A's. A "pita" but I know the connections are good.

headrott · November 2016

machone wrote: »

Opinions?

The 1000VA Avel Lindburg transformer is more expensive and harder to aquire. I can order the 800VA and build a dreadnought right away.

Is the 1000 that much better than the 800?

Very late, but yes. The 1kVA Avel Lindburg is that much better than the 800VA. I have used both with the 2.3TL's and can definitively say the 1KVA is better. There is better sound stage, imaging, image weight (especially low end), and detail.

I haven't read the rest of the thread, but I hope you found one.

Edit: never mind, I just saw you located and built one. Congratulations!

250GTLusso · November 2016

Just read this thread beginning to end. Wow! Thank you headrot for bumping this up to the top. Its exactly what I want to do with my 2.3TLs this winter.

Machone, outstanding thread! (unfortunately some of the links to the early photos in the thread have been lost). Anything you would have done differently? Just looking to learn from everyone's experiences.

machone · November 2016

Everybody? Somebody?

Solder the internal wiring connections or use quick disconnect terminals?

We debate binding post materials and their plating and how each has its on sound but nobody is concerned about the connection between the internal wiring quick disconnect and the lug on the woofer/tweeter?
Or the quick connections to the x-over board?

Come on!?

RandyCroissant · November 2016

I used gold plated crimp on connects from Auto Express other part stores carry them. Very nice quality