Would RTA-12B's with Peerless tweeters be a step up from Monitor 70's?

westmassguy

soundfreak1 wrote: »

Oh boy!

Yup

soundfreak1

LOL

Rex81

While I reinforce my sandbags in preparation for the impending doom about to be reigned upon me, I'll just mention that my query is a serious one. I don't want to give out bad advice. I wouldn't give advice if I thought it was bad. I just know what has personally worked for me and a number of others in this situation as well. I'm curious what others find so offensive about the Crowns. I should say that I'm only interested in hearing from those who have actually heard one though.

I like my Crown. It drives my SDA SRS 2 very well with full, clean, neutral sound and went head to head with a friend's Emotiva XPA-2 and Yamaha M-2. For much less dough.

BUT, if this is straying too far off topic and isn't helpful for the OP, we don't need to let the worms out on this one. I don't own stock in Crown and get no other benefit out of recommending one other than the satisfaction of helping someone out. I'll just go back to enjoying my rig and let others recommend amps.

Mitkraft

If it doesn't ruffle anybodies feathers and, like you say, people who can speak on its capability of sound quality, I (the OP) don't mind opinions on amp suggestions. I'm already doubting that my Yamaha is up to the task and I don't know how various dedicated amps are regarded so its good info. I do plan on doing a full recap/restore/rework of my Yamaha and I wonder if there isn't some level of bulletproofing I can do that might increase its ability to handle the SDA's at least in the short run.

Rex81

rmpolk wrote: »

assuming since the crown xls 1500 is designed to be a portable PA [public address] amp it would probably lack the dynamics

With all due respect, we should all be careful not to recommend (or condemn) an amp we've never heard.

Rex81

No offense taken. Hey, maybe my ears are different than others, and I can't properly determine good sound. It's possible. Who's to say? But a lot of other people praise the Crown XLS series too. I'd guess that 90% of those that have heard them love them, even compared to higher end class A/B amps. Just do a Google search. Heck, you'll find a guy who LOVES his XLS 1500 driving his Infinity Kappa 9s!

But what I DO know, is that one is CERTAINLY missing something one has never heard.

pitdogg2

well if your referring to my post it was a Yamaha RX-V992 they were rated at 85X5 into 8ohm forget all that "dynamic" crap. Mine had the 4ohm selector switch on the back and that just limited the current sent to the speakers to keep the unit from flames, Good current is needed for these SDA2a.

Mitkraft

I'm going to refurb my Yamaha CR-1020 either way so it isn't an either or thing. I will be doing all the work myself. It's just a mater of whether in the end it will be connected to the SDA's (temporarily or for the long term) or whether it will be relegated to another job or flipped. And whether I'll need to seek out another amp.

Another question: Did I read correctly that certain revisions of the SDA2 stayed closer to 4 ohms where as certain ones dipped into lower impedance more? If that's true, how do they behave in that regard after having the crossovers refurbished/upgraded? Same?

Mitkraft

I am noticing now that the THD on the Yamaha integrated isn't as good as some of the dedicated amps. That's something to think about. I'd like to maintain as wide of a frequency range as possible so I've been pretty much ignoring components with a stated 20hz-20khz range. I'm not sure if in the end it will make a difference, but I listen to a lot of classical vinyl and I suspect I'll hear benefit with a wider frequency range. I might not have everything in the chain upgraded yet to exceed that range but I'd like to do so with anything I replace so I eventually nothing will be bottle-necking at 20/20.

Nightfall

That 2 ohm dynamic power rating is not what you think it is, the Yamaha is not 2 ohm stable.

pitdogg2

Mitkraft wrote: »

Another question: Did I read correctly that certain revisions of the SDA2 stayed closer to 4 ohms where as certain ones dipped into lower impedance more? If that's true, how do they behave in that regard after having the crossovers refurbished/upgraded? Same?

recapping will have nothing to do with changing the 4 ohm and below dips just will sound moucho beeter

Mitkraft

Well, got them home today. Doing A/B comparisons now. Im pretty sure they are SDA-2A because the IC cable is spade/spade and I put a multimeter across the leads and it was defenitly hovering around 4 ohms and not 6. Didn't the 2B's switch to 6 ohms?

Btw, the seller said he was a member here so if your out there Chris, it was great to meet you and hear your other gear and thanks again for the sale!

Nightfall

Congrats on the new speakers. How are you liking them? Planning on any upgrades?

Mitkraft

At the moment the Jury is still out. There are some things that I can hear clear and tight in the Monitor 70s that is muffled or missing in the SDA's. I still need to swap the speaker wire and see if the problem follows the lesser wire. I used the lesser wire on the SDA's because I didn't want to stack the deck. I didn't expect the wires to have much effect but I'll swap them and see. The other two potential issues are placement and source. Placement I can understand but I'm having a hard time getting my brain around the amp sounding so good on one speaker and not so good on the other. I'm sure old caps are a possibility to. Not sure how to check thought. My MM doesn't measure capacitance.

Nightfall

What's your placement with them look like? How far away from each other are they? How far away are you from them? How far away are they from the back wall? How far away are they from side walls? Is there anything between them, TV gear and such?

A picture is worth a thousand words.

Mitkraft

Yeah, the placement isn't optimal. They are on either side of a hutch that is about a foot taller than they are. I've tried near it and the wall and also moved out about a foot which puts them just in front of it with nothing else between them. They are about 5 feet apart and I'm about 9 feet from either of them.

Nightfall

Can you move them further apart?

Ditch the hutch, the wife won't mind.

Mitkraft

No, I really can't move them further apart, and the speakers go before the hutch does. The wife already thinks the 70's are prettier. The problem isn't the SDA effect which is what I think would benefit from them being further apart. The problem is lack of mid (or maybe it's mid bass?). Fo example the Tom-toms and kick drums in the intro to "money for nothing" (right before the first guitar riff intro) is almost faint and certainly indesticnt. It's hard to even tell that the hits are different drums like they just sound like a bunch of kick drums. On my original speakers I can hear clearly that they are different Tom-toms and they are very tight hits. This problem could be a product of their placement relative to the walls, an issue with the amp at that Impedence (tomorrow I'm going to check the Impedence at that spot in the music), or it would be old caps/resistors in the crossover.

On the plus side though, I was digging the SDA effect on my "Kind Of Blue" record.

F1nut

Mitkraft wrote: »

Well, got them home today. Doing A/B comparisons now. Im pretty sure they are SDA-2A because the IC cable is spade/spade and I put a multimeter across the leads and it was defenitly hovering around 4 ohms and not 6. Didn't the 2B's switch to 6 ohms?

You cannot measure the nominal impedance with a multimeter. All you measured was resistance.

As Pitdogg2 and Nightfall both mentioned, the dynamic power rating of your Yamaha is worthless, it cannot handle a 4 ohm, never mind a 2 ohm load.



Rex81, having heard other Crown pro amps in a home audio set up, I honestly don't need to hear another. As you said, clean and neutral is their signature, which I do not find musical.

notified

Are both mids working properly in the poorer sounding spk Have you tried the trouble shooting tests in the SDA handbook? Is it using the proper drivers/Is there a problem with the interconnect cable or its connections? Also recordings that don't exhibit good L/R stereo separation may sound a bit muddied using SDA's

Nightfall

Something sounds very wrong somewhere in your setup, given your description.

westmassguy

Your Integrated Amp is woefully underpowered for the 2As. It does have pre-outs, so connecting an external Amp is easy. Anything above background listening levels will use up every bit of current the Yamaha is capable of delivering.

Faustin

I agree with F1nut and Westmassguy. Those SDA's need some better power driving them.

notified

3 factors should be considered before buying SDA's-[1] Placement-do you have enough room size to fully utilize the intended SDA effect? / [2]-Amplification- do you have a amplifier with enough power,drive current and impedance specs, to drive the spks to their optimal performance standards [Although their manuals suggest a amp of moderate power with high current, and capable of low impedance will drive them to fairly high volume] 3- Loss of clarity- a noted slight loss in snd performance in sub standard recordings not engineered with good stereo separation./ And I suppose no. 4 as well-Upgrades-do you want the added expense of upgrades to achieve a higher quality of sound [although that can be applied to most vintage speakers aging electronics] If the answer is yes to the above questions you will come to fully appreciate the sonic enjoyment from a quality engineered speaker system!

soundfreak1

I add the RTA12C'S to that, mostly the amp requirements. I've driven mine with a myriad of different amps and the best results were all high current high wattage (over 200w ) extra clean amps. The differences I'm speaking of between amps was day and night as you go up the scale. They responded properly at 200w HCA 1200 (modded) but at 500w krell , holy crap! Got my first pair of 12b's and on a (decent) AVR I ended up putting the RTA'S on the closet. Didn't use them again until I got the larger parasound. It just wasn't worth playing them. Kinda like filling the tank of a Ferrari with low octain gas, it may run but not really RUN!

Mitkraft

I don't doubt what you guys are saying, but I'm concerned about spending the money on a proper amp only to find that the problem is really there. I've seen other complaints about SDA's possibly lacking in that area. The reason I'm concerned is because I'm hearing the lack even at very low listening levels. The volume dial on the Yamaha is only at like 1 or something. This worries me. I'm not giving up yet. Just concerned. I'm going to do some more checking and also see about possibly borrowing a capable amp.

littlewoodboats

I tried several different amplifiers with my 2a's including a XLS series Crown.

The first was a Yamaha CR 840 that decided to go up in smoke as soon as the interconnect cable was put into place. I knew the 840 was not rated to 4ohm but did not expect it to go at low levels so I take the blame for that one. Nice little receiver dead before its time, may it rest in peace.

Next up was another vintage Yamaha, a CA1000 class a/b integrated unit. I still own the CA1000 and have always liked the way it sounds. This one and the 2a's seemed to like one another getting favorable comments from most everyone who heard the system. For the 2A's the CA1000 was down on power (about 90 watt I think) but sounded great even with the SL2000 tweeters in place.

A friend, big time into pro sound, brought me a loaner XLS1500 I connected through the preamp section of the CA1000. Everyone here at the forum said they (the 2A's) liked having plenty of power so decided to give the Crown a try. Major listener fatigue. The owner of the Crown along with his complete band prefered the sound from the amplifier section of the CA1000. While the Crown worked great powering a couple of monitors on stage, stereo reproduction was not its strong suit. Everything people did not like about the SL2000 tweeters was made worse with the Crown amplifier.

My Adcom GFA 585 overhauled and upgraded at Big Sky made the Crown its *itch. The band guys would bring recordings of their performances to my house to sit and listen with everyone preferring the Adcom. I have never heard a GFA 585 in stock form so could not speak to before and after differences.

The Crown would have sounded better with the RD0194-1 tweeters but so did everything else so being relative the Crown still finished third. I preferred the sound of the Yamaha receiver for music but its going up in smoke counted against it in the final tally putting it in fourth place.

westmassguy

Mitkraft wrote: »

I don't doubt what you guys are saying, but I'm concerned about spending the money on a proper amp only to find that the problem is really there. I've seen other complaints about SDA's possibly lacking in that area. The reason I'm concerned is because I'm hearing the lack even at very low listening levels. The volume dial on the Yamaha is only at like 1 or something. This worries me. I'm not giving up yet. Just concerned. I'm going to do some more checking and also see about possibly borrowing a capable amp.

In the interim, make sure the tone controls on the Yamaha are flat, loudness off, and try setting the bass cut to 15 first, the 70. The 70 position will cut the bass off, but should prevent the amp from clipping.

Mitkraft

All controls are flat and I'm not getting any clipping.

I'm listening to some clasical now. A piece I'm very familiar with both live and recoded. The difference between my old speakers and the SDA's is that when I flip to the SDA's it sounds like I've got a cold and my ears are congested. And this is at low volumes still. I'm just at 1 on the volume knob.

I'm going to put a feeler out for an Amp to borrow, but at this point I don't think I'm willing to shell out even more than I've already paid for the speakers to find out whether an amp will fix what I'm hearing.

soundfreak1

You will never regret buying a proper amp. Trust me on this! With polk speakers this will be well rewarded.