Tube Integrate & Small Speakers Suggestions

tonyb

scubalab wrote: »

Thanks for that link Tony!

In all honesty, I probably don't need anything with all those options like the DAC, the USB streaming, Ethernet connectivity... All that would probably just confuse me or p!ss me off because I couldn't get it to work right!

Really, the only modern convenience I could use would be Bluetooth, which probably comes at the expense of SQ...

That's why you need something with a decent dac in it. Otherwise, you could pick up plenty vintage integrateds for a song.

scubalab

Hmm... I probably need a lesson in DACs and how they work with iPods and iPhones. I was under the impression that in order to take advantage of a good DAC, I'd have to bypass the DAC in the iPod. I thought that was not easy to do with Apple products...

I'm probably asking too much out of what I'm trying to do. I need this system to be small, minimal, and as simple as possible if don't want to get thrown out of the house by my wife!! I don't have room for a CDP or a computer or a full size receiver/integrated. So, I'm looking for a small footprint integrated amp, and some small speakers. Remember, this all started with the Monoprice tube hybrid that I bought and returned due to the lack of quality. Basically we wanted something that would be a step up from a speaker dock - look nicer, and sound better, but not take up a ridiculous amount of space.

So, if an amp with a good DAC is recommended, is there a way to easily play mp3 music from our devices taking advantage of the amp's better DAC? The way it was explained to me in the past was that in order to take advantage of a good DAC, the source input had to be in digital format (i.e. not already converted to analogue by the iDevice). I was under the impression that any music coming from an iDevice was already converted to analogue format (and not as well as a better DAC) within the iDevice. So any DAC downstream wouldn't do anything. How would the internal DAC of the iDevice be bypassed? Is that even possible?

I understand that if I had a computer feeding the amp via usb, that the computer would recognize the amp as the 'sound card' and bypass its internal sound card (digital-to-analogue conversion) sending a digital signal to the amp, correct? Unfortunately, our music source in that room will not be from a dedicated computer. We just don't have the room.

So, for simplicity's sake, any source device (our iPods, iPhones, Android tablets) would either be connected to the amp via Bluetooth, or from the device's 1/8" headphone output to the amp. In any of those cases, would a DAC in the amp itself serve any function at all?

I really have no idea how all this works. How do all of you use your DACs? What is your source input?

All this said, is their a better solution? I realize I'm not going to get the BEST sound with the source of the music being an mp3 player. I'm just trying to get as good sound as I can with that source. If you guys tell me I'm wasting my time and it's not worth the investment unless I have a better source for the music, I completely understand and respect that! I trust all your input and experience - that's why I'm here! I'm sure there's some way to improve on what we have now (the cheap Logitech 2.1 powered computer speakers/sub). Maybe I could get a decent step up in a small footprint on a lower budget? Maybe not. Wide open to suggestions for the best 'bang-for-the-buck' improvement... that looks good to!

heiney9

I think you need to decide on speakers before you can really evaluate what you need for an integrated amp. That HCT is nice, but it needs to be paired with some fairly efficient speakers. The more efficient, the better in that they will play a bit louder etc.

It plays really nice with my 5B's and RT25i's in a bedroom setting. Plenty loud for a computer rig and I can vibrate the closet doors with certain passages.

If you are going to use floor standers or a larger speaker you might want to consider something with a bit more oomph if you expect to do some critical listening at moderate to loud levels.

Otherwise if you want to dabble in tubes with little fuss and not worry about kids hands, etc I still vote for the HCT with the above caveats.

H9

P.s. as is standard with all tube gear, the tubes make a difference. So plan on rolling a couple different pairs (I have some recommendations) the Russian 6N1P-EV are nice, inexpensive tubes that take it up a notch or two.

heiney9

More and more based on what you are saying a small pair of bookies and the HCT seem to fit your needs. It's tiny compared to regular chassis gear. If you were in the market for the Monoprice piece the HCT is the most logical choice. It's built really, really well.

H9

scubalab

Brock - I PM'd Shane (@audiocr381ve) about his Dennis Murphy modded Pioneer SP-BS22-LR bookies. Would they be a decent choice?

Again, this is not going to be a critical listening system! I have a 2 channel downstairs for that! I just want something that looks good, and sounds good playing music from our iPods and such... an improvement over the Logitechs. Doesn't have to be floor shaking volume, but I'd like more than what I have now. I'll try to get some pics tonight of the room - that may help!

I do like the HCT and keep coming back to it. I think with a little patience, they can be found fairly cheap on eBay. There are only two on there now and both are BIN at $250. Checking 'sold' auctions, it looks like most have sold for less than half that. I'll probably just use an RCA to 1/8" cable to connect the source to the amp. Bluetooth is not a "must", although with out BT, a remote control for volume would be nice, but not absolutely necessary.

Would the HCT pair OK with the speakers mentioned above? I think STOCK they are only 85dB... don't know if the mods change that...

Thanks again!

heiney9

85dB is pretty low, but if you aren't needing a lot of volume then it might work with the HCT. Yes, better deals can be had, IIRC the one BIN is free shipping so it's closer to $215-220 really since shipping w/insurance is going to be around $25-30 usually.

If you're not in a hurry they do pop up occasionally. At one time I had two of them, I bought a back-up because I really think it's a cool little tube piece. But I sold the back-up which was NIB when I bought my other integrated amps I fool around with in the computer rig.

I think I paid $175 plus $30 shipping for a NIB unit several years ago. But the prices are all over the place.

H9

heiney9

You know what! I totally forgot I have a pair of Pinnacle small bookies in the audio closet. I bought them from George Grand at the 2012 Polk Fest. I upgraded the x-overs and they have been sitting ever since.

Let me dig those out and I'll get back to you. I'd let 'em for less than $100. Something like a Pinnacle PN-2???? or PN-5 5.25" woofer and tweeter.....

tonyb

Have to agree with Brocks recommendation, if you just want something to throw an IPOD or phone into. Those little HTC/Fatman things were all the rage awhile back.

scubalab

Tony/Brock,

Yeah, I'm leaning more and more towards that. Will have to keep my eyes open for one. Should probably start a thread in the "Wanted to Buy" section. I'm not in any extreme hurry, so I'll see what falls from the sky...

As promised, here are a few pics of the room. Pardon the mess of Christmas toys spread out in front of the tree (my wife would kill me for posting that pic). But, the couch and chairs are usually against those two walls in that pic when the tree comes down.

First pic is the Fireplace. Would be placing the amp either on the mantle (if small enough) or more likely on the hearth. Speakers will likely just sit on the floor next to the two 'trees'. Second pic is our wall unit with window seat - note the audiophile-grade Logitech system we currently use! Last pic shows the front wall which would typically be the 'listening' position. Again, pardon the mess and lack of trim. The room is a work in progress...

scubalab

Still curious... I asked a question (sort of buried in a lengthy previous post) that I'm looking for direction on...

I know many members have DACs. What exactly is your source input on your DAC?

Thanks - Al

rooftop59

I use an amazon fire tv running a squeezebox app that pulls flac files and TIDAL from my office computer. It runs optical out into the Arcam rDAC (which I really like by the way).

If you just want to use an iphone or other idevice, you have a couple of options:

1. Skip sells this (he let me test one and it is very nice sounding): http://www.amazon.com/iFi-Headphone-384kHz-iPhone-Android/dp/B00HI8WXVG its a rare dac that will work with an iphone.

2. Here's another: http://www.amazon.com/HRT-iSTREAMER-DOCK-DAC-STATION-Version/dp/B004H5UYLO/ref=sr_1_1?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1452186146&sr=1-1&keywords=hrt+istreamer

And of course, this is always an option: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Logitech-Squeezebox-Touch-/221985333650?hash=item33af5b6192:g:fWsAAOSw5dNWidMA The internal dac is supposed to be excellent, so you wouldn't necessarily need one.

scubalab

Thanks Paul!

But, I'm confused by that first one you mention (the one DSkip also sells). The pic on Amazon looks like it only has digital input via USB 3.0 Type B female. Why on earth would it have a Type B input?!? Most, if not all lightning cables are Type A male. Does it require an adapter? How else would I connect an iPod, iPhone, or android tablet?

-Al

tonyb

Wadia I70 should also be on the short list.

scubalab

Wherdia find a wadia?

Sorry Tony, couldn't resist! I seriously at first thought you were messing with me with some Italian slang! (I'm Italian too, paisano!)

Seriously though... that looks interesting and might work...

rooftop59

scubalab wrote: »

Thanks Paul!

But, I'm confused by that first one you mention (the one DSkip also sells). The pic on Amazon looks like it only has digital input via USB 3.0 Type B female. Why on earth would it have a Type B input?!? Most, if not all lightning cables are Type A male. Does it require an adapter? How else would I connect an iPod, iPhone, or android tablet?

-Al

Yes you need the iphone camera adapter which is about 30 bucks. I never tried this FYI because I don't have the adapter. I just used it through my computer and it sounded very nice, punchy and detailed.

rooftop59

Skip I remember several cables in the box, but I don't remember any iPhone adapter or cable. I could be wrong, but I wanted to try it out and didn't because I didnt have the right cable.

But either way, the cables not gonna break the bank

voltz

Mine had a A to B adapter, was the iDSD Micro...

Nightfall

You should consider getting some stands, or building your own, instead of putting bookshelf speakers on a tile floor.

scubalab

Nightfall wrote: »

You should consider getting some stands, or building your own, instead of putting bookshelf speakers on a tile floor.

Thanks for the input Nightfall - I agree. That is ultimately the plan. Stands or get low profile wall mounts to get the speakers up a little higher. Just need to find the speaker first then decide how to get them some height!

scubalab

What are the general thoughts on using a Sonos Connect Amp here? I would think you're paying more for the wireless and streaming, so I can't imagine the amp is that great? I do like the Sonos system, but have not really thought about the amp for this situation. What thinks you all?

scubalab

I did a little more digging a bit this weekend and today and have the following options:

* HCT HMS-100 - there's still one on ebay for $250 shipped
* NAD D 3020 - $359.10 (demo unit) at Audio Advisor
* Marantz M-CR610 - $419.99 at A4L
* Jolida FX-10 - $525.00 New from Walter at Underwood HiFi
* Pioneer SP-BS22-LR - $50.00 Used Local CL ad
* Pioneer SP-BS22-LR modded - $125.00 Used CP FM
* ELAC B5 (Andrew Jones' latest) - $229.00 New pretty much anywhere
* Gallo CL-1- $249/pair New from Walter at Underwood HiFi
* Gallo CL-2- $369/pair New from Walter at Underwood HiFi

Anyone have any thoughts on the above amps & speakers?

I am also considering a Spotify subscription and possibly giving the new Chromecast Audio a shot...

The NAD and Marantz are nice and a SMALL footprint, but with the Chromecast, would I need all their techno bells & whistles?

The Jolida is still out of my budget, but man it's what I wanted look-wise...

The HCT is the cheapest, looks nice and may be all I need, but is used, doesn't have a remote, and I don't know the seller... Still looking to see if any others pop up.

The Andrew Jones speakers (Pioneers and ELACs) are only rated 85dB (6 ohm). Would they be too inefficient on the lower powered amps? I don't need window-rattling volume, but would still like to have a little room to turn it up a bit. The Gallos are so nice and a heck of a markdown, but they're getting close to the limit on my budget. Although, I'd think at 4 ohm and 90dB, they'd play nicely...

Sill open to suggestions and thoughts!

Thanks much!

heiney9

You've raised your budget quite a bit. I am not going to even offer the Pinnacles because you're looking at much better options. I offered them up based on your original $300 budget for both pieces.

I'd go NAD and Gallo or Jolida FX10 and Gallo since you've doubled your budget. Stands are extremely important. You need stands consider another $100-150 for those.

H9

scubalab

Brock,

I have not raised my budget (well, maybe including the Jolida in there implied that)! I'm still shooting for $500 or less. Heck, $300 would be great! There's 4 different amps (and that list is by no means all inclusive - still taking suggestions) and 4 different speakers (at 5 different prices).

I guess what I was looking for, was maybe some reassurance that say an HCT paired with the Pioneers might be a good starting point. That would be at the low end of the budget (I like that!!). Or maybe someone might say, go with the ELACs and the HCT; it'd be worth the extra money (and still under $500). I could also do the Marantz and the unmodded Pioneers for under $500. There are several combinations that would still be within budget. Well, maybe the Gallo CL-2 speakers would leave too little for an amp..., but you never know if an HCT will come up on auction again for around $100. Stands or wall mounts will eventually come. Want to settle on the amp and speakers first and make sure they are what I want before I decide on stands. I can live with them on the floor or 'borrow' some of my other stands temporarily. I'm somewhat dangerous with tools, so I can elevate the speakers on the cheap!

You haven't sent me any pics or pricing on your Pinnacles. I will gladly consider them if they fit the bill! Please don't rule that out - please send pics, model, price, when you get a chance!

You have been most helpful, and the primary reason I'm still leaning towards the HCT. I really appreciate all your help and input. I also look forward to your help with tube rolling, should I go with a tube amp.

Thanks again!!

-Al

heiney9

I guess I was just looking at some of the combo prices on there and it seemed you had increased the budget. I am not familiar with the Pioneers you speak of, but I'm sure you've done your research on them.

The Pinnacles I have are PN 5+. See the brochure here Look for PN Series brochure.

http://www.pinnaclespeakers.com/archived.html

I'll post some pics soon.

heiney9

I will also run them on my HCT and see how they work out since according to the Pinnacle brochure they seem to be a tad lower on the efficiency scale. When running them I hadn't noticed it. But, that was awhile ago.

I have updated the crossovers and I put 5 way binding posts on them instead of those cheapie spring loaded clips that only take bare wire.

These really didn't compete with my Polk RT25i's, but then the Polks are 3-4 times the speaker.

Please don't feel any obligation on these. They are small bookies that aren't designed to fill a room with big sound. Just so you can keep your budget in perspective I'd like to get $90/shipped. I will guess the shipping will be close to $25.

H9

P.s. there is probably $40 worth of new crossover and binding post parts.

scubalab

Brock,

Thanks for the info on the Pinnacles. As for the Polk RT25i bookies, everything I've heard about them is that they are the hidden gem in the RTxxi line. I had the RT35i and loved them. Wish now that I never sold them... Even had a pair of RT55i for a short time - bought them used and unfortunately one of the speakers was bad so the seller took them back.

Currently in discussion with another forum member and hope he's serious about possibly selling his HCT! So, if you do have a chance to try your PN5's on your HCT, I'd like to hear your impressions. Going that route may leave a bit more budget left for speakers. In addition to your Pinnacles, I'd still like to consider most of the speakers I mentioned earlier. In addition to those, would probably add to the list the Polk RT25i's, Lsi7's, and possibly the RTiA1's. Would any of these pair well with an HCT? I always thought the older Lsi's were harder to drive...

Regarding the Gallo's on the list above... is the CDT-3 tweeter in the CL-2 worth the additional $120 over the CL-1 with the fabric dome tweeter? Otherwise, they are identical.

heiney9

You won't be able to adequately run LSi 7's on the HCT. Just not enough grunt. The RT25i's sound great and I would imagine so would the RTiA1's.

I know you aren't asking me specifically, but I am not familiar with the Gallo's at all.

I may have a chance tomorrow or Thursday to throw the Pinnacles on my HCT and I'll let you know.

H9

scubalab

Great, thanks Brock!

scubalab

Well, I'm all set up... for the most part.

I settled on a B-Stock Jolida FX-10 and a pair of Polk RT25i bookies from eBay. I also picked up a ChromeCast Audio, and am doing the trial of Spotify.

I wanted to thank EVERYONE who offered advice, leads, and tips. I stayed within the budget by a couple bucks, although it was at the upper limit. For the investment, I couldn't be happier.

The Jolida is absolutely beautiful, and fits perfect for what we wanted to do. The finish flaw on the front panel (which caused it to be classified as "B-Stock") is only noticeable when it's compared side-by-side to the normal finish. So, I don't even notice it.

The RT25i's, well, aside from a PFB type shipping story, sound phenomenal. It seems impossible for sound so good to be coming from such a small speaker. They are everything they are cracked up to be and then some. Regarding the shipping story, one speaker took a blow to one of the bottom front corners during transit. The plastic bezel is shattered at the corner and the wood cabinet is dinged a bit. A claim with FedEx is pending. Hopefully they will make things right, but if not, I can glue the pieces good enough to make it presentable. The SQ was not affected at all.

Special thanks to Brock (H9) for all his tips and advice. I'm still looking for an elusive HCT... I'd like to try one out and settle it in my office. I look forward to picking your brain on tube suggestions!

Also owe a big thanks to Paul (Rooftop) for finding and recommending the RT25i's, as well as Jesse (F1nut) for bringing the FX-10 to my attention. Although the Jolida retailed for more than my total budget, I just lucked into a good deal.

First impressions have been great. Nice warm sound, plenty of bass (just enough), and volume to spare. I don't see much need to ever dial it up past 12 o'clock to fill the room. I'm sure it's only going to get better once the amp is broken in, I get the speakers up on stands, and feed it some good quality input.

I'll post pics once I get some, but I was too busy listening last night to take any photos. For now, here's a heartbreaking pic of the damaged RT25i...



When will people learn to double-box and protect the corners?!?

heiney9

What a shame! I have a pair of RT25i's and they will always be with me. It's a speaker that I won't part with, they are that good! Same with my 5B's which are combination of damn good performers and nostalgia.

I know the factory tweeters are no longer available for the RTxxi series, not sure on the bass driver and/or plastic bezel.

Enjoy, you have a sweet little system there and sometimes near field listening can be more exciting than listening to the floor standers in a large room. It's certainly offers a different listening experience.

FWIW, this Spring I hope to finally get the upgraded cross-over parts in my RT25i's. Should take them up a few notches.

Enjoy

H9