SACD vs. DVD-A

debussyj

Rock,

Thanks so much for your review of the John Lee Hooker stuff. I wanted to get one, but it's no fun when you get a dud. I'm planning to pick that one up and also Alan Parsons Project "I Robot". Heard that one is pretty good. Hey, what's your best Marvin Gaye pick? Lastly, do you have any Sam Cooke stuff?

Thanks,

DebussyJ

therockman

debussyj, The Alan Parsons Project I ROBOT (HDAD) is my absolute favorite disc right now; it just sounds so phenomenal. You are going to love it. As far as Sam Cooke goes, I only own 2 SACD hybrids, LIVE AT THE COPA (5.1) and PORTRAIT OF A LEGEND (2 channel SACD). I love PROTRAIT, it sounds so clean and open, but I was little disappointed with LIVE AT THE COPA. I don't think that the suround mix was that good on this title, but it certainly is an entertaining disc, just a little lackluster in the sonics.
Marvin Gaye LET'S GET IT ON is a great surround sound disc, the mix offers a lot of discrete sound from all speakers. This is one of the rare titles that sound identical on SACD and DVD-A because the original analog master tapes were sourced to 24 bit/ 96khz PCM before being transferred to SACD. I had the DVD-A but traded it for the SACD because of the complex menu; I like putting a disc in the machine and just press play to get music. I have another Marvin Gaye SACD, MIDNIGHT LOVE. It is all right, but it is not my cup of tea. It is real soul music, but the sonics are great.
Rocky Bennett

therockman

Originally posted by Phil Dawson
In order to honestly compare SACD and DVD-A you would need to have the same material in both formats. I am not aware of any such material. How can you have an opinion on which one is better if you have no way to compare?
Phil

This little quote has been nagging at me, so I looked through some of my catalogs and found 45 titles that are out on both formats.
Of course this was a cursory search, and there maybe many more.

Rocky

Kpt_Krunch

I have the 563a player that I run Progressive into a HD component port on my Sammy DLP - the picture is awesome for the price - it is a fill-in until a I can find a Univrersal DVI (or HDMI) player can be had at a reasonable price.

As well, I have purchased a few SACD's and DVD-A's to take advantage of the audio capabilities. I'm running an HK520 Receiver with an HK PA2000 powering my fronts (RT800i's).

Here are my observations:

Bass - I get more bass from the SACD the I do from the DVD-A - I have to turn my sub volume up to 3/4's to get something from DVD-A - and if I forget to turn it down before a movie - I have a lot of cleanup to do

DVD-A - I only have two disks currently, Deep Purple and The Last Waltz. Both suffer from audio drop. Don't know why. Regardless of the volume. I have pushed it pretty hard - -10db on my receiver, and it gets worse the farther into the DVD i.e. the audio drops start about 15 to 20 minutes into a DVD-A, and go from about 3 minute intervals to 90 second intervals, regardless of volume.

SACD - no audio drop whatsoever, regardless of the volume (up to -5 here). Only 3 SACD's so far - The Police - Every Breath you Take, Pink Floyd DOSTM (of course), Peter Gabriel Shaking the Tree which is two channel only.

I wait for sales, and so far not too many.

Overall - due to my own experience - I prefer SACD, but to be honest I can't really tell too much difference between the two so long as the audio doesn't drop out.

danger boy

audio drop out might be caused by a scratched disc or a dirty laser lens. you might want to get one of those laser lens cleaner discs and try that. i have never had any drop outs on a DVD-audio disc.. i own about 10 of them. I agree. bass on DVD-audio is severely lacking.

Kpt_Krunch

Thanks for the tip DB - though the player is new, and actually the OM for the 563a states not to use a cleaner as it can actually scratch the lens. Last time I listened to The Last Waltz, albeit only for about 20 minutes or so, there was no audio drop out. Maybe that is all it was and it cleaned itself. I keep listening

F1nut

I think your problem is hardware related, not the discs. You wouldn't have a dirty lens already, so it may have to do with alignment or processing.

AsSiMiLaTeD

You know that that player does the crossover for DVD-A differently than SACD right?

gatemplin

If you aren't doing anything for the next few days you could try reading over this thread for pretty much anything you could want to know about that player

http://www.hometheaterforum.com/htforum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=150437&highlight=563a

therockman

Regarding the Pioneer 563 and audio dropout, this subject has been covered in many other forums. It seems that there is a firmware problem that Pioneer is working on correcting, so the answer may be in the works.

As far as DVD-A and bass extension, this phenomenon has been identified by many audiophiles. In a head-to-head comparison of Peter Frampton FRAMPTON COMES ALIVE on SACD and DVD-A, you can sense a noticeable bass extension in the SACD over the DVD-A, and I have also noticed this lack of bass punch in a few other titles that I have had the pleasure to compare. Maybe the folks who prefer DVD-A over SACD are not bass aficianados.

Rocky

therockman

The problem with DVD-As bass quality is being discussed right now over at another forum. There is a heated debate going on at:


http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/showthread.php?p=568258



Rocky

debussyj

Hey Rock,

I picked up the Alan Parsons "I Robot". It is really great! Brings back alot of memories. I've had it in vinyl since it's release. Okay, I'm not a youngster!! It's nice to hear it in this format. But my favorites are the Keb Mo SACD's. He's a great blues singer. This guy really knows how to record!! In fact, I just saw him live this past Monday, and let me tell you, the guy is the real deal! You should check out his music, but knowing you, I wouldn't be surprised if you have his SACD's or CD's already.

DebussyJ

therockman

Deb,
That's funny that you should mention Keb Mo because I have heard him and I have been interested in him, but I have never picked up anything by him. I always see his titles available on SACD but for some reason I have just not bought any, but under your recommendation I will definately make it a point to buy something by Keb.
I don't know if George Thorogood is your cup of tea, but his first two titles on Rounder records are out on SACD and they sound prisitine. It is blusey rock, albeit with a hard edge, but on SACD it really sounds clean and rockin'. I don't know if you had the chance to check out the link that I provided in my last post to this thread (regarding this whole SACD vs. DVD-A debate), but that forum is more of a "music fan" forum and less of a home electronics forum, and that is where I learn a lot about new titles and other things about music. You might want to check it out because there are a lot of music lovers over there that really care about the quality of recorded music.
Thanks again,
Rocky

therockman

Hey Deb,

Just one more thing. I sure hope that you bought the right version of I ROBOT on DVD-A because this title has come out twice on DVD-A. It came out last year on Arista Records, but that version did not use the original master tape, it used a 3rd generation tape that had way too much eq on it. The new version is the HDAD on Classic Records (catalog number 2003). This version is the only version that ever used the original master tape and was done in co-operation with Alan Parsons himself. So I hope that you picked up this new HDAD instead of the old Arista DVD-A.


Rocky

debussyj

Hi Rock,

Yes, I did luck out and purchase the good version. It's really neat. Thanks for giving me the "heads up". I'm also really enjoying and rediscovering my regular CD's with this new Denon 5900 player. I especially like my INXS anthology double CD called "Shine Like it Does". They really knew how to record. Sounds pretty amazing and the bass is really neat. I've had electrostatic speakers for years in my serious listening room, besides my Polks and have really developed an appreciation for artists who can lay down good tracks in the studio. Good speakers really tear apart a bad recording. I also checked out that site you mentioned and got a real kick out of the DVD-A, SACD debates. Thanks.

DebussyJ

therockman

Hey Ya'all,

There is another thread over at the Steve Hoffman forum called "Why I like SACD better than DVD-A." As you can imagine by the title of the thread, it is really becoming a heated discussion, but they are certaintly having a lot of fun. You ought to check it out at:



http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/showthread.php?p=572475



Rocky

debussyj

Rock,

I really notice the bass difference on SACD's. I feel they dig deeper and have much more kick. Did you pick up any Keb Mo? If not, you should. I got Marvin Gaye's "Let's Get It On" in SACD. I must say that the title track, which is one of my favorites is SWEET!! I also find myself listening to my old CD's again in analog and really enjoy the sound.

DebussyJ

therockman

debussyj, No I have not picked up any Keb Mo yet, but it is on my list. As for the part about listening to CD's in analog, I think I know what you mean and I listen to my CD collection like this a lot as well. My lone Sony SACD/CD player is hooked up to my reciever in 3 different ways:

1. I have my player hooked up from the analog outputs to the analog inputs of the reciever, by-passing all digital signal processing circuitry.

2. I also have the player hooked up to the reciever with a pair of rca style analog jacks from an analog output of the player to an analog input of the reciever that gets processed through the DSP circuitry.

3. I also have the player hooked up to the reciever with a fiber optic toslink that runs straight into the reciever's digital input.

For most of my CD listening I just run straight into my analog inputs, this hook up gives me the "straightest" and "cleanest" signal, which to my ears provides enough bass and trebel without adding anything artifical. I really like this more natural sound, even on hard rocking CDs like the new Courtney Love disc, (which I happen to like quite a bit).


Rocky

F1nut

Talk about twisting the facts and how truly stupid the general public really is......

http://www.highfidelityreview.com/news/news.asp?newsnumber=11109165

Anybody with half a brain can see that the DVD-A figures don't add up and the reason for that is the general public doesn't know the difference between DVD video and DVD audio, yet the DVD-A camp jumped all over this one stating that their sales are 5 times greater than SACD. Really!!! There are 2029 SACD's on the market and only 730 DVD-A's....hmmmmm, me thinks the DVD-A camp is desperate.

therockman

You know, I first heard about this "supposed" survey a couple of weeks ago and I find the whole thing a little dubious. The results were attained by polling a very limited amount of people from the general public that could not distinguish a DVD-A from a DVD-V, yet they had never heard of an SACD, so the poll indicated that these folks were indeed buying more DVD-As than SACDs. I think the poll was conducted by the DVD-A marketing council.


Rocky

therockman

I came across this article (located at http://www.audioholics.com/techtips/specformats/dynamiccomparisonp1.php ) which I thought was very interesting. Christine is a very respected audio reporter and I have read a lot oh her articles before. Check out the graphs and please read the final part regarding digital audio compression which I have written about here at the Polk Forum before. Audio compression is one of my pet peeves.


Rocky

Dr. Spec

dead hotlink

therockman

I am very sorry about that dead link. I edited the post several times trying to get that link to work, but to no avail. Anyway the article that the link was suppose to go to detailed the audio differences between PCM and DSD in a particular Diana Krall recording. The author choose this particular title because the original recording was done in analog and the title is available in CD, analog vinyl, DVD-A and SACD. Christina had several graphs that she used to demonstrate the sonic differences between the CD, the DVD-A and the SACD.

The bottom line was that DVD-A and the SACD were very similar sonically, but the SACD had much less compression than the DVD-A.


Rocky

Danny Tse

Maybe you would be interested in this....

SACD Conference/Workshop in Hong Kong

F1nut

Great line.......


"In spite of new media on the horizon, SA-CD is likely to remain to highest resolution audio format for maybe twenty years. This from the people whose role it is to promote Blu-ray. Those hanging out for something "better" may want to look into cryonics."

lsarver

Originally posted by therockman
I am very sorry about that dead link. . . .
Rocky

Hope this works better. (Watch the capitalization: the server is probably running *nix.)

therockman

That's it, thanks man. (I really didn't think that the capitol letters were important.) Welcome to the forum I really think that you will like a lot of the stuff that we talk about around here.


Rocky

Emlyn

Originally posted by therockman
The bottom line was that DVD-A and the SACD were very similar sonically, but the SACD had much less compression than the DVD-A.
Rocky

It was indeed an interesting experiment, but I have serious reservations about the usefulness of her findings, which she equivocates on at the end of her article.

A quote from the end:

If this difference is "real", as opposed to an anomaly in my equipment, then it could explain why some people don't like SACD compared to CD or DVD-A. The slightly lowered sound levels, if not compensated during the listening process, will cause SACD not to sound "as good" compared to CD or DVD-A.

The better dynamic performance of SACD would also explain why some people prefer SACD, as they probably notice the slightly higher dynamics.

The results are interesting indeed, even though I would caution against over-generalizing them into conclusions about each format. Remember that the results may not be applicable beyond a single title and the constraints of my equipment. (end quote)

Look more closely at what she was doing. She was using a Panasonic RP-82 and playing the DVD-Audio disc back through its analog outputs (the only way to do it). The RP-82 is a fine DVD player, and its audio performance is adequate for a mid-fidelity home theater. But, the DACs and other audio components in the RP-82 are very cheap and its audio output through its analog outputs is tinny, hollow, and generally unsatisfying when hooked up to more high-end equipment which reveals its limitations.

By contrast, she was using a Sony XA777ES machine for SACD playback. This is a superb SACD player bettered in performance on SACD only by the highest quality boutique manufacturers and by Sony's higher megabuck SACD players.

No wonder she found the players to have different dynamic range results. What she was seeing was playback results with the Sony SACD player having higher dynamic range than the playback results with a Panasonic DVD-Audio player.

As a medium, DVD-A contains the material necessary to output signals with ZERO compression of the original PCM audio signal. MLP (Meridian Lossless Packaging), the CODEC for DVD-Audio is lossless--whatever PCM signal is encoded on a DVD-Audio disc is decoded with the full resolution of the original digital recording-- in this case 96/24 PCM. The weak point in this test is the DVD-Audio player. If one wants to test DVD-Audio signals at their best, one has to use suitable equipment and not settle for whatever is at hand.

It would be interesting to see something like this test done with a Meridian DVD-Audio player, but I think the test as it stands in the article proves nothing other than that CD indeed does indeed have a brickwall at high frequencies and is not as faithful in reproducing the original PCM master.

TheGrayGhost

” Look more closely at what she was doing. She was using a Panasonic RP-82 and playing the DVD-Audio disc back through its analog outputs (the only way to do it). The RP-82 is a fine DVD player, and its audio performance is adequate for a mid-fidelity home theater. But, the DACs and other audio components in the RP-82 are very cheap and its audio output through its analog outputs is tinny, hollow, and generally unsatisfying when hooked up to more high-end equipment which reveals its limitations.”

Help me understand what you are saying here, please.

I can understand the reduced sonic quality of using the RP-82 player for DVD-audio, but where in the processing chain does the compression take place, if not in the mastering process? Does the RP-82 use a MLP decoding algorithm that does not comply with DVD-a licensing or specifications? Is the cheap DAC not truly supporting 24bit/96kHz and somehow causing compression?

Emlyn

Originally posted by TheGrayGhost
Is the cheap DAC not truly supporting 24bit/96kHz and somehow causing compression?

The problem I see is that her testing methods were apples to oranges to bananas. A better way to test would be to use a universal player like a Denon DVD-5900. This is still not a perfect way to test the formats because the audio circuitry used for DVD-A and CD is different from SACD.

I think she was using the term compression loosely. What she found was that the analog output of the Panasonic RP-82 with DVD-Audio had less dynamic range than the analog output of her SACD player. It seems to me the culprit would be the whole analog chain within the RP-82 and her recording methods. There should be little or no problem for any DVD-A player with reading the data from a DVD-Audio disc and transmitting it to a DAC. The perceived "compression" of the converted digital signal comes with the inexpensive analog parts in the DVD player. I imagine the dynamic range of an SACD's playback would be lessened if she had used a $200 Sony DVD player with SACD playback capability instead of a high-end SACD only player.

I can perceive differences in sound quality between DVD-A and SACD analog playback, but to me the differences are related to the quality of the playback equipment and the mastering of music than the formats themselves.