SACD vs. DVD-A

therockman

The subject of which high resolution audio format is better, SACD or DVD-A, is a very pertinent issue to the audiophile, as well as to the casual music fan that does not want to invest in tommorows betamax. There are several key issues involved in the high rez format wars, but for a serious audiophile the most important factor is sound quality. These two formats both offer a higher quality sound than does CD, but the two formats are as different as apples and oranges. DVD-A is based on the same technology as CD; it is a PCM (pulse code modulation) based digital music format, except it has a higher sampling rate and it is a 24 bit medium. SACD on the other hand is a brand new technolgy that is based on DSD (direct stream digital) encoding, a 1 bit encoding method that samples the analog signal at 2,822,400 times per second.

These two formats might seem simialar in nature, but close listening to the same material on the same system would tip the scale in favor of SACD for pure sonic pleasure, but this statement is open for debate. Both formats are proprietary, SACD belonging to Sony and DVD-A belonging to Meridian. But through judicious licesening agreements, the technology is shared freely between the various hardware and software manufacturers. And of course, with a universal player the debate might seem a moot point.

Please feel free to post your thoughts and feelings on this format war, which is of grave siginicance to the future of our entire hobby.

dorokusai

I support SACD, but will invest in a Universal type player in order to enjoy more. I don't care which one wins at that point.

hejiraent

Rocky,

Thanks for starting this thread, your first post was exactly what I needed to read. I wish you had written it a month ago! I just bought my first universal player (Phillips DVD 795 SA) and am anxious to start getting a library of SACD's! My problem is that after I buy "Dark Side of the Moon"(Pink Floyd) and "Tapestry"(Carole King) I see little else that jumps out at me. I don't have the time or temperment to read lists of album titles on web sites, so I may be mistaken in # of titles available. I do know that when I go to CC The SACD section consists of maybe 20 titles with 2 to 5 copies of each title. DVD-A is no better and in some cases worse. I would like to duplicate my CD library in the SACD format. It was not problematic for me to recreate my cassette collection to CD nor my VHS collection to DVD...I am seeing a problem finding SACD's. Is this something that is going to change?

Frank Z

For those of you that want to read up on the in's & out's of either....

DVD-A
SACD

tonyv1

Checkout Circuit City online for SACDs, click on the "Classical Music" tab to find classical SACDs. Circuit City online misprices some of their SACDs at $13.99 so look for the bargains. I just got the George Harrison "Live in Japan" double SACD hybrid for $9.99 at Best Buy last week. Here in So. Ca, Fry's has a good selection of the Concord Jazz SACDs for $14.99.

AsSiMiLaTeD

OK, so I've been looking for a good universal player that will do everything through the 5.1 outputs (audio and video). Someone mentioned the Pioneer 563 a while back, but I'm finding mixed opinions on that unit.

Does anyone here have this player or know of another that works well?

therockman

Right now there are over 2,500 titles out in high rez audio; about 1,900 SACDs and about 800 DVD-As. Some of my favorites are;

TOMMY by the Who in 5.1 SACD
GOODBYE YELLOW BRICK ROAD by Elton John in 5.1 SACD
HARVEST by Neil Young in 5.1 DVD-A
I ROBOT by Alan Parsons in stereo only DVD-A
TOYS IN THE ATTIC in 5.1 SACD
GHOST IN THE MACHINE in stereo only SACD

There are so many good titles out there, and there are so many online retailers that carry them all. The retail outlets are pitiful, but if you buy them online, there are plenty of good choices available.

danger boy

there is no one answer here..both SACD and DVD-a have their pluses and minisus (sp).

without us audiophiles to support either or both formats.. no one wins.

I'd love to hear what the makers of these hi rez discs are thinking.. do they suddenly think consumers will jump on the bandwagon and dump their huge CD collection for hi rez audio? I highly doubt that will happen.

For most people.. it's taken years to collect a nice amount of music CD's. I can't see anyone going out and starting over on replacing their much beloved collections.

I like hi rez recordings.. but only as a novelty at this point. It's fun to dabble in it now and then.. but i'm just not interested in many of the titles out currently.

whew, glad I got that off my chest.

I vote for DVD-a. only becasue i don't have a SACD player. But do I think DVD-a is the better format? I don't know, or really care.

Phil Dawson

In order to honestly compare SACD and DVD-A you would need to have the same material in both formats. I am not aware of any such material. How can you have an opinion on which one is better if you have no way to compare?
Phil
One thing that DVD-A has is a video component that can be full of very good information.

hejiraent

Phil, the reason they don't release material in both formats is so you cant do a side by side comparison....If the general public could listen to both side by side playing the same material then obviously the SACD would win:D

Phil Dawson

You must have more wisdom and insight than the rest of us mere mortals. You must also have much better ears than I do.
Phil
How can you compare different recordings and judge the format?

gatemplin

Originally posted by Polkmaniac
OK, so I've been looking for a good universal player that will do everything through the 5.1 outputs (audio and video). Someone mentioned the Pioneer 563 a while back, but I'm finding mixed opinions on that unit.

Does anyone here have this player or know of another that works well?

I have it and it works great. It is not going to better than a Denon 2200 but is perfect for people like myself who want to get into hi rez and cant afford the high end players. It is the best CD player I have ever had and I cant think of anything I dont like about it.

AsSiMiLaTeD

Originally posted by gatemplin
I have it and it works great. It is not going to better than a Denon 2200 but is perfect for people like myself who want to get into hi rez and cant afford the high end players. It is the best CD player I have ever had and I cant think of anything I dont like about it.

Do you use the progressive feature, have a HDTV?

therockman

Actually there are several titles that are available in both formats, but the only ones that I have personally compared are T. Rex Electric Warrior, both SACD and DVD-A, and Peter Frampton FRAMPTON COMES ALIVE, both SACD and DVD-A. There are several more titles that are out in both formats, but my experience of a direct A/B comparison is limited to these two titles.

By the way, the SACD of ELECTRIC WARRIOR blows away the DVD-A.

therockman

I was wrong in my last post. My wife pointed out that we have heard both the SACD and the DVD-A of Shania Twain's UP, as well as Marvin Gayes LET'S GET IT ON. But to be honest, my listening of these were not in a controlled A/B setting, just casual listening at friends. I own the SACD of Shania Twain, and a friend has the DVD-A, but I have the DVD-A of Marvin Gaye and a friend has the SACD.

therockman

Of course I already own the SACDs of TOMMY and GOODBYE YELLOW BRICK ROAD, but the DVD-As of these two titles are expected to hit the streets on March 23rd. So everybody that owns TOMMY on SACD can then pick up the DVD-A and do their own A/B. Since this is a very large work that is very demanding, this title will probably give a very good comparison. But for my money, I will probably stick with the 5.1 SACD version of TOMMY.

I like both high rez formats, so I am not really putting down one over the other. As a matter of fact, I think the best sounding digital disc in my collection is the HDAD of I ROBOT.

gatemplin

Originally posted by Polkmaniac
Do you use the progressive feature, have a HDTV?

No, I have 32" CRT interlaced. The picture looks great to me but I have never seen HDTV. I was commenting more on the audio. It is what it is, a entry level player but it cant hurt to try it out. I think there are others from Onkyo, Toshiba etc coming out soon. Here is a link to a reveiw for the 563a. http://www.slottweak.com/DV_563A/563review.htm

therockman

Although I have stated my position in this high rez audio format war, I need to clarify a couple of things. As I have stated previously, there are plenty of titles out there that are available on both formats, so that anyone who cares can compare for themselves. But there are a couple of titles that aren't even considered fair comparrison titles, namely GAUCHO and WHAT'S GOING ON. The reason is because these two titles were authored to PCM before being transfered to DSD, so that even the SACD of Gaucho has the same basic PCM essence as the DVD-A of the same title. The same is true with WHAT'S GOING ON. Thus if you compare these two titles on both formats, then you can hear the similarites in the essence of the sound. It is interesting to do as a scientific experment, and can actually be used as a controlled factor if you ever want to do a double-blind A/B comparrison of the two formats.

One more thing. When the Beatles come out on high rez audio, which ever format EMI chooses to go will get a big shot in the arm publicity wise as far as the general public is concerned.

PolkThug

Any SACD or DVD-A head units for cars yet?

therockman

I think that Polk Thug has hit the head on the nail. Public accpetance of these high rez formats will more than likely come when there are car stereos that play one or the other. I read a test report of an Accura that comes straight from the factory with a DVD-A head unit. The reviewer really liked the set-up, it was a joint effort between Aaccura and JBL, I think. (I could look for the article if you want me to.)

gatemplin

Yeah, I worked for Acura and the new TL comes with 5.1 DVD-A.

debussyj

Hi guys,

I'm really enjoying both formats on my universal player (Denon 5900). I have to agree with the "Rock" that SACD is my favorite format. It's just so "Smooth" and comfortable to listen to. I especially love it in 2 channel. But I've been a 2 channel listener for years. What are some sites besides Amazon that you folks have been using for SACD, DVD-A shopping? Any would be helpful.

Thanks,

Debussyj

therockman

I shop at:

www.redtrumpet.com

www.amusicdirect.com


www.elusivedisc.com


Rocky

F1nut

Here are a few more:

www.cduniverse.com

www.gemm.com

www.mymusic.com - type in sacd

www.towerrecords.com

therockman

OK everybody, I have a little bit of news to report. My wife and I and another couple just got through doing an A/B comparison of Muddy Waters FOLK SINGER on both SACD and DVD-Audio. This was a very scientifiaccllyy controlled experiment (with plenty of beer involved), but the verdict was unanimous.
Drum roll please...

The winner was.....DVD-Audio.

On this particular title the SACD seemed to bright and harsh, while the DVD was more detailed and smooth. This is really surprising because the DVD was only a 24bit/ 96khz (Classic Records), but yet it seemed to provide a lot more depth and detail than did the SACD.

There are actually a lot of titles that are out on both formats, the next one that we are actually going to compare at my house is Beck SEA CHANGE in SACD and DVD-A.

A note to everyone here: Remember that the audio hobby is suppose to be fun, so anybody that wants to can actually make some comparisons for themselfs between the two formats. There are about 3 dozen titles out now that are available on both formats, so just pick a title that you like, crank up the jams, and have fun with it.

Rocky Bennett

debussyj

Hi Rock,

Thank you for posting the results of your experiment. If it did not include the consumption of some form of alcohol, I would not have deemed it "scientific".
Have you ever purchased any of the John Lee Hooker stuff available in DVD-A? If so, is the quality decent?

Thanks,

DebussyJ

gatemplin

Folk singer is one of my favourite albums on SACD. I think it sounds great. Are both of the albums remastered by the same people? My copy says Chess Records but you say the DVD is from Classic Records.

hejiraent

Debussey,

I think Rock was keeping it light by mentioning the alcohol and "scientic" in the same breath.

Is dark side of the moon available in DVD-A? Of all the SACD titles I have seen this is the only disc I would buy twice in one day

Loud & Clear

That's the experience that I've had with DVD-A & SACD. SACD is often too harsh up top, while DVD-A seems very smooth throughout. I don't have a great many titles, so I could be premature.

F1nut

Funny, I find SACD's to be smooth, glare free.

therockman

Hi Ya'all,
DebussyJ, Yes I do own John Lee Hooker on both SACD and DVD-Audio. The DVD-Audio is also on Classic Records, and I own two titles. BOOM BOOM (catalog DAD1011) is a must own classic title, and MR. LUCKY (catalog DAD1007) is also a fantastic title. The SACD that I own is John Lee Hooker BOOGIE CHILLIN' on Audio Fidelity (catalogAFZ005) and this disc sounds simply stunning. The quality on all of these titles is simply amazing for the age of the original recordings, but as a first purcahse I would recommend BOOM BOOM on DVD-Audio.

gatemplln, Classic Records is a reissuing company very similar in nature to Mobile Fidelity Sound Labs. As a matter of fact, the motto of MFSL is "ORIGINAL MASTER RECORDING" and the motto of Classic Records is "MASTER TAPE SOUND." Considering this, my DVD-A of FOLK SINGER does say Chess on it, but it was remastered by Classic Records. As a collector I collect a lot of different high resoultion audio discs, and I collect them in different ways. I collect discs by artist and I collect discs by the issueing comapny. Right now I own every single SACD title that Audio Fidelity has ever made. I like the engineer at Audio Fidelity (Steve Hoffman), and so what ever they put out, I buy. (Whether it is jazz, classical or rock.) The same is true of Classic Records. I am collecting every single title of DVD-A that this company is issueing (although I do not own all of them yet), no matter what the title or artist is. I also collect arists, but I find that collecting entire catalogs of a record company is fun and challenging, (not to mention expensive).

hejlraent, Unfortunately DARK SIDE OF THE MOON is not one of the titles that is available on both formats, but if you have the original Japanese pressing of DSOTM on Harvest records, you probably have the best stereo only version out there.

Loud & Clear, That effect that you are talking about is called "smear." You are absolutely correct in detecting a certain amount of high end "smear" on SACDs, especcially on cymbals and other very high frequency sounds. There has been a lot of discussion about this on the net, but to be honest with you, the verdict is not in yet about the cause and results.

F1nut, I do love SACDs, but as a casual music lover, I have to give a thumbs up to certain titles on DVD-A. I don't want to be closed minded and dismiss an entire format because of a couple of bad expereinces, so I try to give each release a fair trail based on it's own merits.

Thank you all for putting up with my rants and raves, sometimes I just go on.

Rocky Bennett