Center channel. Who needs one?

mikeyb128

I've done a lot of rearranging system wise in my house. Which has left me with no center channel, and too be honest so far I don't miss it. That would leave me with a 6.2 system. Anyone else enjoying the no center channel life? These focals image so nicely I don't think I need one.

honestaquarian

I agree about the Focals imaging capabilities.
I used to sell them.
Good piece of kit that.
However the entire purpose of the center channel is to keep he dialog locked onto the screen from ALL positions in the room, no mater where you are sitting.If you are THE ONLY ONE watching movies alone and never leave the sweet spot that is fine. If you have other people over and they are sitting way off axis,suddenly the great imaging abilities of the Focals is for naught as they are closer to one speaker and ALL of the dialog ends up coming from THAT speaker and NOT the screen!

mikeyb128

I have the focals in a larger room than before, placed further from the back wall and wider apart. So far the sweet spot is pretty huge with these. I only have a 3 seater couch to deal with. I'm really impressed these small towers can fill a room this large with loud clear music and movies.

The plan is to pick up a center a few months Down the road. Right now I'm tapped out from Christmas and new speakers. So far very pleased with my "down graded" theater. Sounding better than before actually. I haven't even run xt32 yet, basically plopped everything in place and got lost in the music.

tonyb

I've ditched the center years ago and don't miss it either. To do so, you do need speakers that image well and throw a good soundstage. You can swear the voices are coming from the screen in movies or music. That free's up coin to put into the main fronts too....and you save even more by less cables.

If you have the right front speakers, and you position them well, voices will still be anchored to the screen and you won't miss that center.

MetropolisLake

The problem with a phantom center is that, well, consider you're watching a movie and the speakers playing are as follows:

1. the center channel is playing by itself

2. the two mains are playing by themselves

3. all three front LCR's are playing at the same time

4. the front mains have background sounds but the center has different material, such as dialogue


What you just did by going with a phantom center is make all these sound exactly the same. It's just not optimal. Three identical LCR's is.

tonyb

What Skip said ^^^^.

Seriously, a good pair of speaks will image like a **** and make you forget about a center channel even existing.

That said, a dedicated HT room is a different animal. The only loss with a phantom center imho is when a sound pans across the front stage. A good imaging speaker will make it sound like the center is still there, but not quite as good as a dedicated big center channel would on those panning sounds. For the majority of your movie watching though, you won't miss it at all.

MetropolisLake

You're assuming you're sitting right there in the middle though, with the speakers fairly close on each side of a little TV. Yeah sure. That's basically just 2-channel listening with a TV in between the speakers though.

In a typical theater room though there are multiple seats, and typically you have a big screen with the speakers spread out more. Just kind of hard to sit on either side and get that kind of imaging, typically just isn't going to happen.

I do agree that horizontal center channel speakers suck though. Just don't agree that dedicated center channel content is unnecessary or possibly even a bad thing.

Upstatemax

I have not a run center in a long time. It was passable with my old Polk's and Def Techs.

Once I hooked a set of 806V's into the HT, I realized that I will NEVER run one again...

The only system I have heard that I can't pick out the center is my fathers Totem system.

Nightfall

You guys have me wanting to experiment with phantom center for a while.

mikeyb128

I understand arguments for a center, but I feel like the persons arguing for one may have not experimented with a phantom center. I certainly was a center believer not long ago. But if you have a pair of speakers that image so well, I feel like it's not required. The whole point is to timber match the front 3 right? So they blend seemlessly? Then I see not problem with a great pair of speakers that image properly. I also understand the off axis to the sweet spot. My speakers are arranged so they are slightly larger than the 3 seater couch I'm on. Yeah the middle is ideal, but all 3 seats sound real nice. Voices locked dead on the screen.

Nightfall

DSkip wrote: »

Bravo. You're making me smile as I see you go on this journey.

Exactly what am I sacrificing from my 2 channel performance by having a center and rear speakers?

OldSchoolPolk

So all this time I thought I was too poor to afford a center (and accompanying amps) I was just experimenting with a phantom center!

If I could just spin this to convince my wife to let me get the Focal Arias at MD as L/R and forgo the additional 3.1 speakers I would be set. She's not buying the "imagine how much we'll save" bit.

All kidding aside, I've always believed in "Less Is More." Its good to hear others having success with their systems by focusing on placement and room design.

Here's wishing everyone has a great Holy Day with friends and family!

WLDock

One can very well get by with a well setup 2 ch system or front for a music/movie system....No question! If everything in the signal chain matters as well as setup and the room, then there is no reason this system can't handle movies.

In that same breath, DO NOT dismiss the center component in a well setup surround system. Everything still matters if getting the best sound for movies as the creators intended. Yes 2 ch is GREAT for music but mutli-channel is GREAT for movies in DTS format for example, if that means anything to you.

It all comes down to user preference and content.

I went years with just 2 channels for TV and movies. Here recently I have been purposely playing with my cable box output. I set it to 2 channel PCM running just the front two. Then, just the other day, in the middle of an action scene in Insurgent , I set the output to Dolby Digital out. Oh my did everything get better! Dialog, voice clarity and intelligibility, dynamics, panning, effects, surround, impact, etc, etc. The sound just opened waaay up and the room felt bigger.

One crazy thing I found out with these Chane speakers.....I ran a few different Audyssey XT32 cals...and I think I like the sound better with it turned off. That was not the case with the RT5000's. Crazy??? Maybe? Maybe not?

Upstatemax

WLDock wrote: »

One can very well get by with a well setup 2 ch system or front for a music/movie system....No question! If everything in the signal chain matters as well as setup and the room, then there is no reason this system can't handle movies.

In that same breath, DO NOT dismiss the center component in a well setup surround system. Everything still matters if getting the best sound for movies as the creators intended. Yes 2 ch is GREAT for music but mutli-channel is GREAT for movies in DTS format for example, if that means anything to you.

It all comes down to user preference and content.

I went years with just 2 channels for TV and movies. Here recently I have been purposely playing with my cable box output. I set it to 2 channel PCM running just the front two. Then, just the other day, in the middle of an action scene in Insurgent , I set the output to Dolby Digital out. Oh my did everything get better! Dialog, voice clarity and intelligibility, dynamics, panning, effects, surround, impact, etc, etc. The sound just opened waaay up and the room felt bigger.

One crazy thing I found out with these Chane speakers.....I ran a few different Audyssey XT32 cals...and I think I like the sound better with it turned off. That was not the case with the RT5000's. Crazy??? Maybe? Maybe not?

As you said, everything matters.

Quality of electronics and processing, speakers, set-up...

My biggest issue with centers is that I can ALWAYS pick them out. They never sound "seamless" to me. It just ends up driving me nuts.

The only system I can't pick out the center is my fathers Totem set up. Arro mains with a Dreamcatcher center and surrounds; with a NAD T787 running it all.

Honestly, before I picked up my new SC-87, I seriously considered getting another Parasound P5 and a 2ch amp and calling it a day.

The only things that stopped me is the HDMI switching and I do like to have the option to expand my setup if I want to in the future...

I change my mind too much.

Thorton

To enjoy a good HT system, you actually have to want a good HT system and know what a good HT system sounds like. Otherwise stick with the TV speakers or a soundbar. If you watch a lot of movies and thoroughly enjoy the theater type experience of being thrown into the middle of the action, then you need a good HT system.

Once you've heard a good HT system, it's a revelation kinda like when you upgrade to better 2 channel speakers or system for music. It all comes down to the want and final expectations of the listener/watcher. Same thing kinda goes for your 2 channel system. The selection of components, speakers, set-up and placement is critical for both HT and 2 channel to meet your performance expectations.

I haven't tried a phantom center but find it difficult to believe that I would like the result or could surpass the experience with three speakers up front.

BlueFox

I am fortunate to have both a stereo in the living room, and a nice HT/surround system in a spare bedroom. Depending upon the movie, and the transfer to Blueray, the sound can be as important as the picture in regard to enjoyment of the movie.

WLDock

Upstatemax wrote: »

My biggest issue with centers is that I can ALWAYS pick them out. They never sound "seamless" to me. It just ends up driving me nuts.

Are you saying the center:
1) stands out from the LR speakers in timbre?
2) overpowers/dominates the other speakers
3) does not convey voices in sync and image at the mouth of the people on screen.
4) sounds fake and artificial?
5) etc.

Three identical speakers behind a AT screen is one of the better design paths to a seamless front. However, I'm sure all that have tried and tweaked a surround system will tell you that setup can take some work and experimentation at times. I can tell you first hand that having the face of the front three in alignment, playing with phase, crossover point, EQ, plugging the port, getting the center higher changed my results for the better.

afterburnt

First I did not read it all so forgive me if the question is redundant. If you run a center is it important to use the same cables and IC's on the center as you run on the main L/R?

afterburnt

xcapri79 wrote: »

afterburnt wrote: »

First I did not read it all so forgive me if the question is redundant. If you run a center is it important to use the same cables and IC's on the center as you run on the main L/R?

You know the answer, don't you?

yup

mantis

If you don't like a center channel in your system, forget the fact of money cables etc.
Lets focus on this topic alone for a minute.
So lets first address the soundtrack. Most movies especially after 1977 are recorded with center channel information. So it only makes sense to have a center channel speaker.
When shopping for a center channel speaker, you don't select one that isn't the same brand or series as your main speakers. You must buy the exact match to your main channel speakers or all the comments about a center not blending in or I can point it out in a system are all very true.
Now here's another food for thought, if you have a center channel that matches your fronts and it still doesn't sound right, there can be a few reasons for this
1) Placement. This is a huge deal when blending a center channel to the front channel speakers. The Tweeter should be around 2 feet above or below the front channel speakers or in the same exact line. If you go further then 2 feet off, it becomes harder to blend in as you start to get some audio gaps. This really isn't a huge deal for identical speakers but can if the center is a design with flaws.
2) Cable matching. I find having matching cables makes a difference. This is just another factor that can be factored in when there is something not quite right. Using the matching speakers wire and if need be IC's, you will eliminate any tonal differences that can be caused.
3) Calibration. Probably one of the things I notice when Harry Home Owner Non Professional calibrators do a calibration. I have seen so many wacky things people do to their calibration over the years and they wonder why they are not happy with their system. I properly calibrated system probably benefits this center channel issue more then anything else. You can actually use a different center channel and different wire be off on your placement but do a killer calibration and have a damn good experience.
Not to say the other things are not as important as I personally think they all add up to the ultimate experience but if your calibration is off, your entire system is off period.
4) Room acoustics. Huge one as this can make or break the very best systems in the world. I have experienced this more times then I'd like to admit and even personally. You can easily over power a room and never get that room or space to sound right. The size of the room and the things in it probably play the biggest roll in the overall performance. When this is off, the entire system is off no matter how good the system is , balanced or even calibrated. I know I said calibration is the most important but room acoustics will hinder even your best attempt at perfection.

Some things to consider.
If you own given speakers and buy the matching center channel and it's not working for yeah? Chances are the given speakers you selected to buy is not for you.
Many people don't want to admit this when building a theater system as they base it off of music performance first then try to build a surround system around that. I'm totally guilty of this as I did this with Dynaudio years and years ago.
I had these totally sweet and my favorite musical speaker I have ever owned Audience 82's. These speakers could make you laugh, cry and get lost in so many emotions. They spoke music like no other to me.
After I got the main channels, I ordered the center and surround speakers. I even got their flagship at the time subwoofer in the Sub500. When I sat down and listened to SACD or DVD AUDIO, I thought " IT REALLY CAN'T GET MUCH BETTER THEN THIS!!!". Unless of course I spend a ton more money etc.
When I sat down for my first movie I thought " The detail is incredible" I could hear every single sound with clarity and detail. It was a totally amazing experience and a new level of clarity and detail I was not expecting but did.
Now when I started watching action movies like Star Wars , Matrix and Gladiator I noticed something wasn't quite right. I fooled around with placement and Calibration until I was Blue in the face.
What I had to admit to myself is I built a Music first system and sounds good with movies.
As I say that to this day that kind of comment with all my knowledge and decades of experience in the field, training, hanging with speaker engineers etc it still bothers me that a speaker can perform better with movie soundtracks then music soundtracks and visa vera. To achieve a level of perfection in both areas is a very hard thing to do. All Engineers I have hung with have all told me about the entire up hill battle they face when trying to achieve a double duty system.
I'm not a sound engineer but I can understand that to a point. I do have a fantasy approach to many things audio and video as in this fantasy products do what they are designed to do and they don't influence then recording in any way. Yes I know that is not reality for whatever the reasons are, I know.

mantis

So to finalize this for now, I have a huge problem with center channel issues. I have heard many speaker brands fail in this area and if you have one of those failed systems, get rid of it and seek out one that works for you. I did this very thing and own a speaker brand I never even considered owning.
So to just touch on that speaker journey I will list the 2 previous systems I had before making the change.

1) Polk Audio LSI 15 Main channel
Polk Audio LSI Center
Polk Audio LSI FX surrounds
Polk Audio LSI9's surround back
Polk Audio LSI Sub

This system again was a mirror check as for music it really moved me. I loved this system for music and hated it for movies. It wasn't the fact the center channel didn't match as I know from reading years ago other owners complained about the center and I never experienced this issue.
I also worked for Tweeter when the LSI's where a current model and I Installed countless systems with different arrangements of the LSI speakers. One of my favorite was using all LSI7's and a mounted on the wall LSI center channel. That system actually sounded damn sweet for movies in many ways but still lacked in total overall dynamic range even running Reference B&K amps.

2) Polk Audio RT1000p's
Polk Audio CS400 Center
Polk Audio RTI FX Surround
Polk Audio RT35 surround back
Polk Audio PSW450 sub

This system I felt did a good job with music and an excellent job with movies. Very fun dynamic and pretty detailed especially for the money. Still one of my favorite dollar for dollar systems is the RT line from Polk. You get so much for your money.
I drove them with Pioneer Elite, Denon Rotel and B&K in the time I had them and they responded to the increase in power every single time. These are absolutely the poor mans high end speakers. I say that with great respect.
My issue with them is I was around so much higher end speakers that I wanted more especially when the LSI speakers came out, I just drooled over them and really convinced myself even before I sat in front of them I HAD TO HAVE THEM.

3) Dynaudio Audience 82 main speakers
Dynaudio Audience 122 Center channel
Dynaudio Audience 42w Surrounds
Dynaudio Audience 42W Surround back
Dynaudio Sub500 Subwoofer

As I talked about above this system was the ultimate speaker package for SACD and DVD AUDIO. What a killer presentation of those formats and you could damn smell the instruments. But as said above it fell on it's face for movies.

Now what I own now and have for years now with NO LUST for another package still( yeah go figure that out me now swapping out speakers like some do underwear LOL)

CURRENT SYSTEM
Definitive Technology Mythos ST Main channel
Definitive Technology Mythos 10 Center
Definitive Technology Mythos 10 Surround
No surround back channels or Heights( Keep wanting to add but this system does it for me without)

This is a system I put together that Definitive Technology said this is exactly how it should be done. Using the Mythos 10 for center and surround duties has an amazing synergy effect on ones theater experience. I can tell you this, there is no difference in tone when things move around the room. Even with flawed room acoustics , it still moves so believable it's scary.It's the best system IMO in this price class money can buy. It's around $7000.00 for a 5.2 package.
The front channel speakers is basically a Mythos 10 with a subwoofer on the bottom. Having 2 subs as most of you know really fills the room and don't have the sweet spot issues that one will have with running one sub.
I also have no center channel issues. I never once thought " That center channel doesn't match or sucks or whatever you guys with center channel issues say". Again not knocking you guys but there are issues there for whatever the reasons are and eliminating the center channel from your system I feel is a mistake.

tonyb

It's a matter of preferences Dan, you really can't call it a mistake. Every situation is different. Some may dig ditching the center, some may not, but we all know the only way to see if either floats your boat is to give it a try and hear what you hear.

mantis

tonyb wrote: »

It's a matter of preferences Dan, you really can't call it a mistake. Every situation is different. Some may dig ditching the center, some may not, but we all know the only way to see if either floats your boat is to give it a try and hear what you hear.

I do agree with what you said but I can call it a mistake as it's my opinion.

pearsall001

Jumping in late here but I am one that definitely appreciates how the center channel gives the listener what the sound engineers had in mind. There is a reason they steer information to the center. Sure you can omit the center with excellent results but you are giving up that last bit of detail & realism that the engineers had intended. You won't realize what you're missing until you put the center back in. I've done it both ways to experiment & I totally get what the phantom center listeners are saying...it did sound excellent & could really live with my system that way. But when the matching center was put back & properly calibrated then I realized that fudging the front soundstage thru the mains only was selling the soundtrack short. I certainly enjoy my HT & want it to perform as best it can so for me it's a center all the way.

mikeyb128

the best system I've had was my 705's and 706. With the shot guns in the picture the center blended in so seamless it was like it wasn't there. I've had crazy results by moving the center channel to the top of my audio rack and moving it up to the trailing edge of the rack so the speaker slightly overhangs a bit. I'm fully on board with a center channel. But as things got shuffled around in the two systems I have, losing my center, I am amazed at how good it sounds with out one. It was more of an experiment actually, as I fully intend to get one to match my arias in the future. But my hear lies with the music, so a sacrifice had to be made to fund my 2 channel system.
My point was that having a speaker that imaged so well it was like the center channel is there.

I have to agree with mantis that for me as much as I liked my lsi's, I was never super wowed with them for movies. I also felt this with the new lsim. Yes they did sound great for movies, my friends were wowed by them, I even did a theater crawl with some friends on avs and everyone was wowed by mine, but being the perfectionist I am, I always felt something was missing. I didn't feel when glass shattered it was as good as it could be. Then along came focal, friggen tear jerking for music. A more forward sounding speaker but not bright. Inserted these into my system, and even with no center (for now) the system has exploded back to life. It even plays louder on the same given volume as the lsim. But still blown away by how good they sound with no center. Even my girlfriend commented that they sound better. If she noticed it must be good!

So long story short. Yes it's all a matter of opinion, this thread wasn't intended as it sounds better without one, but does sound good without one. Was just a small step backwards in my home theater journey that had surprising results, And allowed me to learn a bit in this hobby.

WLDock

mikeyb128 wrote: »

I have to agree with mantis that for me as much as I liked my lsi's, I was never super wowed with them for movies. I also felt this with the new lsim. Yes they did sound great for movies, my friends were wowed by them, I even did a theater crawl with some friends on avs and everyone was wowed by mine, but being the perfectionist I am, I always felt something was missing. I didn't feel when glass shattered it was as good as it could be.

That's interesting. I tell you....the last four days I've been listening back and forth to the LSiM703's vs. the Chane's in my sig and I'm not sure that they totally walk away from the Chanes for home theater. The 703's sound really good plus they image and stage well. The overall tone is slightly richer with more low end punch over the A3rx-c's. OTOH, even with the smaller 5-1/4" spit gap woofers, small low profile Artisan surround speakers, the system sounds big. I guess low distortion and articulation can go a long way. Also, I'm without an amp again which I know both would do even better with 200 watts per speaker.

I would have loved to listen to the 706c vs. the A2rx-c center but it got ruined in shipping. The shipper did not have the original box and used only bubble wrap in a box too large. Combine that with the UPS torture test and this is what you get:




So, I may have to search for a replacement. Or it would be sweet to build a 2 ch rig around the 703's in my other room. (Or go a different direction....there's a set of Focal Aria 906's on CL not too far away! http://lacrosse.craigslist.org/ele/5342996053.html)
Or, I may end up just keeping the Chane set as they are working out well in terms of sound and clean and trim aesthetics. The Mrs. is happy!

IN THE END.... I liked my current 5 ch setup vs. the 2 ch front 703's and the surrounds. The voices were better anchored to the screen and dynamics are better. Who knows what the results would have been with the 706c....its a monster in appearance!

ukcolin99

I like my center.

mikeyb128

WLDock wrote: »

mikeyb128 wrote: »

I have to agree with mantis that for me as much as I liked my lsi's, I was never super wowed with them for movies. I also felt this with the new lsim. Yes they did sound great for movies, my friends were wowed by them, I even did a theater crawl with some friends on avs and everyone was wowed by mine, but being the perfectionist I am, I always felt something was missing. I didn't feel when glass shattered it was as good as it could be.

That's interesting. I tell you....the last four days I've been listening back and forth to the LSiM703's vs. the Chane's in my sig and I'm not sure that they totally walk away from the Chanes for home theater. The 703's sound really good plus they image and stage well. The overall tone is slightly richer with more low end punch over the A3rx-c's. OTOH, even with the smaller 5-1/4" spit gap woofers, small low profile Artisan surround speakers, the system sounds big. I guess low distortion and articulation can go a long way. Also, I'm without an amp again which I know both would do even better with 200 watts per speaker.

I would have loved to listen to the 706c vs. the A2rx-c center but it got ruined in shipping. The shipper did not have the original box and used only bubble wrap in a box too large. Combine that with the UPS torture test and this is what you get:




So, I may have to search for a replacement. Or it would be sweet to build a 2 ch rig around the 703's in my other room. (Or go a different direction....there's a set of Focal Aria 906's on CL not too far away! http://lacrosse.craigslist.org/ele/5342996053.html)
Or, I may end up just keeping the Chane set as they are working out well in terms of sound and clean and trim aesthetics. The Mrs. is happy!

IN THE END.... I liked my current 5 ch setup vs. the 2 ch front 703's and the surrounds. The voices were better anchored to the screen and dynamics are better. Who knows what the results would have been with the 706c....its a monster in appearance!

Oh man. That looks horrible... Sorry that happened. I hope insurance will be covering the damage, or a refund. Just brutal!

A buddy of mine was interested in the Aria 906, demoed them locally and they image like crazy.

Conradicles

I need one. My name is Eric, and I am a "HugeCenterChannelAholic".