No bass on SACD with 2900

kelley

Can't seem to get any bass when I'm trying to play an SACD disc. I've already swapped out the sub cable from the 2900 to my pre/pro. If I play a movie my sub gets the input although that is a different input with an optical cable. Could it be the "sub out" portion of my 5.1 output on the 2900? What would be a sure fire way to check that?

fireshoes

Does the receiver have volume control for each channel of the 5.1 input?

kelley

I pretty much can't be surprised anymore with my setup. I just got off the phone with Tweeter and they went thru all of the setups with me. The all knowing Ref 50 guy wasn't there tonight so they're going to call me Wed night and program everything over the phone. The 2900 setup is all correct according to the Tweeter guys. The only thing we haven't proved yet is if the sub output on the 2900 is actually working. We'll try it on the phone and if that doesn't work I'm just going to take the Ref 50 and 2900 down there this weekend and let them hook it up and see what's going on. That may actually end up being better so I can get everything programmed up in person. To top it all off I had bid on a Carver Sunfire amp which I didn't win, but I did get contacted by an out of the country seller promising me a great deal. I was very tempted to tell him to F... himself as I didn't feel like getting ripped off, but I just deleted the email. I'll get it all set up one of these days. The stereo has kind of taken a backseat to me trying to get the water toys ready for the season.

fireshoes

I've never tried this, but couldn't you connect your sub cable directly to your 2900's sub out? That way you can tell if it's outputing the signal at all, which would indicate a problem at the receiver.

HBombToo

Since I'm in the shelter I'm gonna go from memory so be kind...

Under the menu then multi tell us if Filter Option is (on) or (off). This could be the issue and if I recall Filter had to be on or my CS+'s were inactive.

HBomb

danger boy

i think Fireshoes is right.. plug your subwoofer directly into the sub output of the 2900.. and you should get bass. if not.. then it's prob not working.. or else there is some wrong menu set up.

kelley

I did try the sub hooked up straight too the 2900. No bass either but I am thinking the signal may be too low coming out of that jack since it hasn't been amplified yet. Filter on or off hasn't made a difference either. If the 2900 or the Ref 50 is at fault I'm well covered by a warranty so all I need to do is figure it out.

Tour2ma

Sounds like the 2900 is not putting out the bass. The issue is just with SACD and not DVD... yes?

And that fantastic offer for the Sunfire. SCAM... I got one too as I threw a marker bid in on the 5 ch Sig Cin on ebay. If your offer was from 'angel_logo00@yahoo.com', you should be getting an e-mail from ebay waiving you off.

therockman

There shouldn't be any bass output to your sub running 2 channel SACD because this is a purely analog out put from the 2900. Thus, your pre-pro would never process the signal into the sub unless you introduce artifical digital processing circitry, which is not recommended for SACD source material. ALL 2 CHANNEL SACD IS RUN DIRECT WITHOUT PROCESSING, HENCE NO SUB OUT!!!!! I f this bothers you, you should listen to CD.

danger boy

Originally posted by kelley
I did try the sub hooked up straight too the 2900. No bass either but I am thinking the signal may be too low coming out of that jack since it hasn't been amplified yet. Filter on or off hasn't made a difference either. If the 2900 or the Ref 50 is at fault I'm well covered by a warranty so all I need to do is figure it out.

you don't need to worry about the bass being to low here from the sub output. your sub is probably powered.. and has it's own amplification.

HBombToo

Originally posted by Tour2ma
Sounds like the 2900 is not putting out the bass. The issue is just with SACD and not DVD... yes?

good question Tour.

HBomb

Tour2ma

Thanks Henry, but in rereading intial post kelley did say that movies were fine...

Originally posted by kelley
Can't seem to get any bass when I'm trying to play an SACD disc. I've already swapped out the sub cable from the 2900 to my pre/pro. If I play a movie my sub gets the input although that is a different input with an optical cable. Could it be the "sub out" portion of my 5.1 output on the 2900? What would be a sure fire way to check that?

Reason I was reading was rockman's post. Wanted to see if kelley said how many IC's he had routed for SACD. Rockman is assuming only two. I read six in the above, but it's not completely clear.

kelley,
Two or six?

Loud & Clear

Movies might be working out fine because he's likely running digital out from the 2900 to the pre/pro. Silly question: Is the sub set to yes in the Denon's audio configuration? You know, the menu where you set your speakers to small/large etc.?

In reference to tour's post: His first post does indicate that he's running a single RCA from sub out on the Denon to sub in (external inputs) on his pre/pro, so if all else is correct, perhaps either the Denon's sub out is faulty, or the sub in (from the external inputs) on the pre/pro is faulty.

kelley

I have all 6 5.1 outputs connected from the 2900 to the Ref 50. I only have 2 SACD discs. Aerosmith which is 2 channel stereo and Pink Floyd Dark side of the Moon which I believe is multi-channel. Yes, I have bass output when playing dvd's. That connection is with an optical cable so I think the problem if any is on the sub output, or input with the 5.1's. The only reason I question the ability to run the 5.1 sub output directly to my SVS is the low voltage that probably comes out of the 2900. I tried the sub with the auto-on circuit and by manually turning it on and never had any output. The Tweeter guys seemed to be confident with the 2900 settings, they were however unsure about one of the settings in my Ref 50. Waiting for a call back tomorrow night from their Ref 50 man. I did get the email from Ebay warning me not to bid. I was surprised to get an email from Ebay since I was hit up a couple of times before without any warnings.

Tour2ma

Got ya... and I think I undestand now that rockman was referring to the fact that some SACD's are only 2 ch...

Yeah, I was surprised at the ebay warning as well. But I was going crazy trying to get the "seller's" name so I could report him to ebay. View source option did finally yield a name, I think...

I assume the original e-mail you got showed that it was sent by yourself. That's what mine showed...

kelley

Anytime I get an email from someone from Ebay I **** can it. The world just sucks the big one lately. Tour, you have the Ref 50 if I remember correctly?

therockman

Most of my SACDs are 2 channel only, the minority are multi-channel. Even on the 5.1 discs, sometimes the machine will default to the stereo mix, so that you might need to go into the set-up menu and pick the default as multi-channel. The comment that Kelley made about him "thinking" that Dark Side is a 5.1 disc makes me think that he needs to check his system more closely, because once you hear the surround sound mix of DARK SIDE there is no guessing that this disc is in 5.1.

fireshoes

On the 2900 you just press the Audio button on the remote to cycle through multichannel sacd, stereo sacd, and regular cd.

kelley

Rockman, Dark Side of the moon does sound great and I have strong info coming out of my 5 main speakers. I only threw the "thought" part in there because I "thought" Aerosmith was messed up by playing only my front main speakers. Ends up it is a stereo SACD disc. I had thought all SACD's were multi channel until a week ago.

therockman

And I was re-reading some of the earlier posts, and I was never under the impression that he only 2 rca style analog jacks running from the 2900 to his pre/pro, I always understood that he had all 6 rca style analog jacks connected. My comment was that with a stereo only SACD (like kelley's Aerosmith disc), the pre/pro will not process a signal to the sub. But the Floyd SACD will have music going everywhere, so if he has doubt about this disc being a 5.1 disc, then he needs to readjust his menu settings.

Dr. Spec

ALL 2 CHANNEL SACD IS RUN DIRECT WITHOUT PROCESSING, HENCE NO SUB OUT!!!!! I f this bothers you, you should listen to CD.

The 2900 has 6 pre-outs and one of them is dedicated to the subwoofer.

If the player is properly set-up, the sub-out works on:

1) multi-channel SACD
2) multi-channel DVD-A
3) stereo SACD
4) stereo CD

Never had a problem with the BM on my 2900. Kelley should be aware the filter slopes on SACD are 6/12, though, versus 12/24 for DVD-A and redbook.

Loud & Clear

Originally posted by Dr. Spec
The 2900 has 6 pre-outs and one of them is dedicated to the subwoofer.

If the player is properly set-up, the sub-out works on:

1) multi-channel SACD
2) multi-channel DVD-A
3) stereo SACD
4) stereo CD

This is true, at least with our Denon receivers which route the bass out of their 'sub out' jacks, but his pre/pro & amp may have something to say about it. Perhaps the guy at Tweeter who's knowledgable about the B&K will have the fix.

kelley

I can't wait to get this thing set up right. Overall I am very satisfied with my system right now. Movies are awesome. Just need to tie up a few loose ends

Tour2ma

kelly,
Yup, me with the Ref 50, but not doing any SACD here as yet.

rockman,
Understand now, just was not getting what you were saying earlier. 2nd time I've admitted as much...

polkatese

kelley,
on the two channel SACD hi rez (i.e. Aerosmith), you might want to check out the music 5.1/7.1 simulation. It's on page two on your Ref50 remote (B&K->DVD->page 2->music) See if you like it....

debussyj

Hi Kelley,

I sent you a private message, which may be of some help to you. Have you read it?

DebussyJ

therockman

Originally posted by Dr. Spec
The 2900 has 6 pre-outs and one of them is dedicated to the subwoofer.

If the player is properly set-up, the sub-out works on:

1) multi-channel SACD
2) multi-channel DVD-A
3) stereo SACD
4) stereo CD

Never had a problem with the BM on my 2900. Kelley should be aware the filter slopes on SACD are 6/12, though, versus 12/24 for DVD-A and redbook.

This thread interested me at first because of the subject matter at hand, SACD playback, which is my "NEW FAVORITE." But keeping up with all of the posts on this thread has actually saddened me because of the lack of understanding regarding SACD and DSD technology.
First of all, the Denon 2900 does not provide a firewire output for the SACD information; all SACD information is output through rca style analog cables. What this means is that the DSD information has already been converted to analog via an internal D/A converter. Now when you input this ANALOG information into the pre/pro, in order to enjoy the SACD with the highest fidelity, all you want to do is to have control over the amplification aspect of the signal. In other words, you just want to pass the signal through the pre/pro with as little alteration as possible. If you want to alter the signal in anyway, and this means re-routeing the bass from a 2 channel SACD into the sub, then you must first take this pristine analog signal and reconvert it into a digital signal, thus adding a A/D conversion into the signal. At this digital stage the signal is manipulated and processed to provide the kind of bass splitting that you are asking about, and then reconverted into an analog signal in the pre/pro via an internal D/A converter. Thus the pristine DSD information has undergone a D/A>A/D>D/A conversion process, which is never good.

Thus the earlier comment that your Denon provides this kind of processing saddens me because you are missing out on a lot of the "intent" of the SACD experience. This was the reason for my initial comment about sticking with CDs if you want bass in your sub, because the CD information is conveyed from the 2900 to the pre/pro via a fiber optic cable. The signal has never undergone a D/A conversion, it is still in the digital doman, and can be manipulated any way you want. After it is manipulated then it goes through a D/A conversion in the reciever, thus avoiding the dreaded D/A>A/D>D/A conversion chain.

Now with DARK SIDE OF THE MOON, this is a 5.1 SACD and should provide you with a bass signal to your sub if the menu on your 2900 has been set up correctly. Remeber, you have to use the menu in your 2900 because this menu alone effects the analog signal coming from your 2900 to your pre/pro. The fiber optic cable will always pass the 5.1 of a DVD even if the internal menu of the 2900 is set to sub"off."

Now just a little note that may be of no significance to anyone. I have a fair collection of SACDs and DVD-As, and some of my favorites are mono only. I have several mono only SACDs including John Lee Hooker and Lightin' Hopkins, and my mono only DVD-A collection includes titles from John Lee Hooker, Muddy Waters and Cannonball Adderly. These discs offer only the single mono mix, with no stereo mix or multi-channel mix. And of course I have some multi-channel SACDs that are not 5.1. I have Yo Yo Ma Brazilia Obrigado, which is a 5.0, and I have a Ravel Bolero which is a 4.0. So remember, not all multi-channel SACDs are going to be 5.1.

danger boy

therockman,

thanks for the post.. but i think you're underestimating some people in here.. there are others that enjoy hi rez audio just like you do.. and know quite a bit about it already. Some of use have been into high rez audio for a number of years.. back when there were only about 40 titles out on each format respectively.

but you do put into plain language how the technology works.. which is always good for those people just entering into these two formats.

good work.

therockman

Sorry Danger Boy, but I just had to get that off my chest. Thanks for putting up with me and my sometimes stupid posts here at the forum.

Tour2ma

Rockman,
Can't remember seeing a stupid post from you yet... Then again my memory is pretty bad...

As for this thread I don't see any real contradictions, other than maybe the suggestion that someone may up-process a 2 ch SACD into multi. Doesn't bother me. Many would argue that first A->D conversion is the death of the music...

kelley

Just to keep everyone updated. I did not get a call from Tweeter last night to help make sure the programming is correct. I am thinking about just showing up at the store tomorrow evening with both pieces of gear to hook up. We'll see.