2ch Performance Question - B&K AVR507 vs Ref50/Ref5 with B&K 200.2 Amplifier

msg

B&K Owners/Fans -- question on use for 2ch/music of the AVR 507 versus a Reference 50/Reference 5 with a 200.2 amplifier...

Anyone with experience with these units - is a profound difference to be expected with the separates here for 2ch listening in a smaller space with say a set of 703's or Monitor 10's? Especially with the Reference 5 preamp?

Or are these units all pretty close in 2ch performance given the smaller space and speakers intended?

I would think that the pre/amp combo would be better given the numbers, but how much better, and in what ways? I've not had access to a 200.2, though it seems similar to the specs of earlier units, like the older EX-442, which I have used. I would imagine the results should be similar?

I'm trying to consolidate some equipment and trying to determine whether it's worth pursuing a 200.2 amp for 2ch use with a pre/pro, or just stick with an existing 507 and add the preamp and processor to the sell list.

I see some significant current differences - 42A vs 75A peak to peak - in the AVR vs the Amp.
What's damping factor?

Side question - why does it require so much more volume knob on an AVR to achieve volume when most preamps I've used get loud with very little volume knob?

tonyb

Given your smaller space and speakers, I don't see too much of a gain between the 2. 42 amperes in the receiver is as much as some amps, which is what B&k does anyway.

I'd say for those speakers and space, if you want to go separates to kick it up a notch over the 507, a tubed pre amp may be in your future. Only downside is all the connection options available from the B&k gear and their built in dacs. If consolidation is your main driver, stay with the 507.

Volume issue can simply be a line voltage thing. Amps need x amount of line voltage to reach full power. Pre amps have various voltages between make and models, don't know what the 507 is, but may just be the design setup.

msg

thanks for the input, Tony. the more I thought on this last night, the more I realized that, yes, of course separates are always going to be best for 2ch in comparison to even a beefy AVR of some sort, but again, like you mention, I have to consider the actual use and that other factors like space and future flexibility may be more important given that it's not a critical listening space, not to mention whether worth the cost. indeed, I need to be more seriously evaluating and consolidating and moving the gear I'm just not going to use. (someone called me a hoarder once )

you know how it is though, once you get a taste for decent quality, any deficiencies become more glaringly obvious, and it's hard to accept that, even in secondary systems. agreed, the 507 is definitely a pretty nice all in one piece with all it offers, even if a bit lacking in 2ch performance in comparison to a nice 2ch pre and amp.

re: the volume, yes, I think I remember now seeing something about what you're saying on a thread about a pro amp recently; can't remember what it was, but the poster was mentioning something about how it didn't seem very loud, and the response was something about the output voltage from the pre/pro and how it should be near 4v or something like that to properly realize the performance of the particular amp in use, and the recommendation to upgrade the pre to get higher input signal to the amp?

I think as far as AVR's go, most of my (limited) experience has been that the sound doesn't really seem to start to come in until -30dB or higher. I have noticed that, on the 507 at least, that you can adjust the input gain of sources. should this typically be left zero'd for 2ch sources, like a Squeezebox? Drawbacks to bumping it 2-3dB? increased noise?

tonyb

Nothing wrong with adjusting the gain if that option is available to you, many amps have gain adjustments. Do it in small increments though and listen. Depending on the design, it can add some noise.

If your using the SB as a source, hopefully your using the volume dial on the receiver as the SB volume control itself is somewhat noisy. Most portable digital devices are.

Amps usually spec out the input voltage needed, and pre's spec out the output voltage, normally it's not an issue really unless your mix and matching vintage gear/tube gear....with more recent stuff.

If you want my advice to up your game given the parameters......sell the B&k stuff, all of it. As much of a fan boy I am of their gear, they are getting fairly old and repairs won't come easy. See what you can get for all of it and give Skip a call. The Dayens gear seems to have a small footprint, which you need, and great SQ, which you want. Or look for a good integrated, like a Musical Fidelity, or a tubed one from Silk and the likes. I think once you step foot into the above mentioned, you'll forget about B&k pretty quick.

msg

yeah the SBT is set for max/no volume control; I forget how it's termed, but volume is controlled through the AVR.

funny you mention selling off the gear and making the move to a simple integrated - we were just talking about the Menuetto. definitely sounds like an intriguing piece, esp where use with 703's is concerned. I've also been finding myself drawn recently toward simplicity and minimizing. it's odd, but I'm gathering that this is what happens in 2ch. some of the 2ch guys I talk to tell me they just use the same system for tv, as well. funny how things change. a year ago, I wouldn't have thought for a second that I'd be one to give up tone controls, but I pretty much always listen zero'd now.

and yeah, that M6si that Wagner picked up piqued my curiosity as well.

smglbrth

I believe "Mantis" tested for just this sort of thing years ago when this B&K equipment was new. If my memory serves correctly he noticed practically no difference between the two setups. But..., my memory is not what it used to be. It could have been the lower powered models as well...

PSOVLSK

Yep. Search Plinius and read how all of our jaws dropped to the floor when we heard the Plinius/703 combo. After you've read all the rave reviews, realize the Menuetto is better with the 703.

mantis

Here is the bottom line on the 2 your talking about.
The AVR507 has a Reference 50 Preamp built in. It is exactly the same exact unit used in both chassis. Thats the only difference is the chassis.
The amp built inside the AVR507 is a ST125.7 amp. It is not a reference amp. That receiver is 125 x 7 not 150 , the only reason it's listed as 150 is that it has extra current from the power supply when your only driving 2 channels. Other then that it's a full 125 per channel when 5 or more channels are being driven.
The Separates will sound slightly better due to the independent power supplies and the higher quality Cap's in the Stand alone amp. Reference amps are better sounding then ST amps but the AVR 507 is probably the very best sounding AVR ever built IMO anyway. I own one but don't use it anymore, I also had a AVR307 which I loved to death.
I have done side by side comparisons with the AVR507 , Ref50 and Reference 200.2 , 200.5 and 200.7. I have also tested the ST125.7 vs the AVR.

msg

Dan, thanks very much, that was exactly what I was looking for, and then some.

Thanks for all the input on this, fellas.

RamZet

mantis wrote: »

Here is the bottom line on the 2 your talking about.
The AVR507 has a Reference 50 Preamp built in. It is exactly the same exact unit used in both chassis. Thats the only difference is the chassis.
The amp built inside the AVR507 is a ST125.7 amp. It is not a reference amp. That receiver is 125 x 7 not 150 , the only reason it's listed as 150 is that it has extra current from the power supply when your only driving 2 channels. Other then that it's a full 125 per channel when 5 or more channels are being driven.
The Separates will sound slightly better due to the independent power supplies and the higher quality Cap's in the Stand alone amp. Reference amps are better sounding then ST amps but the AVR 507 is probably the very best sounding AVR ever built IMO anyway. I own one but don't use it anymore, I also had a AVR307 which I loved to death.
I have done side by side comparisons with the AVR507 , Ref50 and Reference 200.2 , 200.5 and 200.7. I have also tested the ST125.7 vs the AVR.

This is all spot on,
I used/have a ref50, 200.2, avr307, and a ref5 s2. The separate/dedicated parts will sound better than a all in one (avr).