"Bugle Boys" 12AU7 Tubes

audiocr381ve

I'm looking for a quad set and am coming up with nothing on Ebay. Should I just purchase as matched pairs? I think Brock mentioned the Harmon Kardon pulls are the same tubes so I'm absolutely interested in saving money there. Would love some help and thanks gents!

pitdogg2

good luck on the search man they are getting very hard to find

ZLTFUL

Been trying to find a matched quad for my Cary for some time now and have taken up alcoholism instead...cheaper and easier!

pitdogg2

In all my searching for BB's I have come across exactly 1 when I needed a pair that 1 went for way more than I wanted to spend on a pair. It went for 3digits for 1. I see 4 digits for a quad and they will be high digits at that. Good luck bra.

marvda1

these might be worth looking into.
http://www.upscaleaudio.com/amperex-medical-12au7-ecc82-made-in-holland/

heiney9

audiocr381ve wrote: »

I'm looking for a quad set and am coming up with nothing on Ebay. Should I just purchase as matched pairs? I think Brock mentioned the Harmon Kardon pulls are the same tubes so I'm absolutely interested in saving money there. Would love some help and thanks gents!

The 12AU7's aren't too bad. Not all HK pulls are Bugle Boys.

Bugle Boy was a cartoon developed to market Philips made tubes in US under the Amperex name. So Amperex tubes can be manufactured from just about every leg of the Philips conglomerate.

So using the term "Bugle Boys" means you are looking for a brand and you can end up with miss matched tubes in the area of where they were manufactured. Meaning you could have some from Heerlen Holland or Blackburn England or Munich Germany or even Hamburg Germany. They all sound different.

There is some supporting evidence that many of the Bugle Boy logo'd tubes are from Holland but that doesn't hold true for every tube. SO you need to know the codes.

You will pay a premium for a Bugle Boy tube vs. an HK pull and if they have the same codes, they are the exact same tube.

There are 3 variations on short plate Philips tubes, well actually if you include Valvo and Siemens then there are 5, IIRC, not to be confused with the change code (although some of the 5 variations coincide with the change codes).

It's important to recognize them and keep them all the same.

Long plates have several variations as well that sometimes coincide with the change code and sometimes not. Long plates are more scarce and can command 2-3X's the price as short plate versions

The most popular are the short plate small halo tubes from Holland. Gf2-5 for the top line of code (Gf = ECC82 and the number after is the change code, meaning when something about the tube has been changed for the next production run. These were produced roughly form 1962-1967.

The best of the short plate tubes are the Gf0 or Gf1 with large halo made in Holland those were made from 1959-1961 (with some early run 1962 tubes as well). Holland tubes have the delta triangle at the beginning of the 2nd line of code. 1959 and 1960 the 2nd line of code was 3 symbols. 1961-end of production used 4 symbols.

Be careful the change code in the preceding line can indicate the decade. Because when they went to the 4 symbols in the 2nd line the only way to tell a 1961 tube from a 1971 tube is the change code. Gf2 -B1F3 is 1961; Gf8 -B1F3 is 1971 because the (8) in the change code is much later the the (2) in the change code.

Are you following so far?

H9

More to come in a second post.

heiney9

There are so many variations it's hard to put it down in writing.

Valvo Ecc82 short plate with the slant halo getter are fantastic and were only made 1959 and 1960. In fact after about 1961ish Valvo stopped producing tubes and Philips used whatever with Valvo logo's.

In the 2nd line of code D always identifies Hamburg Germany tubes.

The long plates are sublime and come in 4 varieties, and a price that's right up there. I have every imaginable Valvo ECC82 and they are some of the best sounding, longest lasting tubes ever made. Unfortunately their output was small and short lived.

Heerlen Holland made ECC82 short plates are excellent as well. The best sounding ones are the large halo tubes made in 1959 and 1960 and very early 1961. These will have umpteen different brands, but the codes don't lie. The smaller halo version is nice too, the large halo gets closer to the long plate sound.

Bugle Boys will command a 25-50% premium, but another branded tube with the same code, is the exact same tube.

Heerlen Holland tubes have the delta triangle as the 1st symbol in the 2nd line of code. One particular tube of note is the very early (up until about 1961) Bugle Boys that also have a Treble Cleft symbol, these are said to be special quality and super low noise and tight match.

Long plates are awesome and outta sight price wise.

There are two types of Mullard short plate tubes made. One at the Blackburn Plant and the Mitcham plant. The Mitcham plant tubes are earlier 1960-1962, Blackburn plant tubes are from 1960-end of production. B in the 2nd line of code is Blackburn and R in the 2nd line of code is Mitcham. I prefer the Mitcham tubes slightly more, but they are harder to find because of lower production.

Long plates are awesome and are outta sight. The Mitcham long plate is my preference over the Blackburn made long plate. There are two style of Blackburn long plate tubes and they sound different.

You will occasionally some Siemens and Halske made tubes bearing the same brand names as other Philips tubes. There are short plate and long plate versions, long plates being excellent and pricey. The 2nd line will start with an = with a / through it.

The moral of the story is know what you're buying so a) you don't get ripped off b) you have a quad of the same tubes. Many sellers don't even know what they are selling. Today I bought a Hytron/CBS labeled (and boxed) 12AX7A. It's actually a super rare 1959 Mazda (French Philips) short silver plate ECC83. Very rare, very desirable, paid very little for it and it's NOS.

H9

pitdogg2

DSkip wrote: »

They are absolutely phenomenal though. There is a reason they go for so much coin.

never doubted that.

heiney9

A Thomas organ tube, A Harmon Kardon tube and an Amperex Bugle Boy tube with the same codes are the exact same tube. Made on the same line, by the same people with the same materials. But, BB's command a higher price because somewhere along the line people believe they are better tubes. BB was just a marketing tool in the US for Amperex, which was a Philips brand used in the USA.

In fact, the secret is, the organ tube might be the better tube because they usually screened their tubes for low noise.

I bought a 1955 Magnavox labeled 12AX7 tube that was in fact a Tung Sol tube, paid next to nothing for it since it said Magnavox and not Tung Sol. It's the exact same tube.

heiney9

Shane, if you need help identifying anything let me know, I'm glad to help. I'll look at home and see what I have. I don't think I have a quad of anything I am willing to give up, but until I inventory, I don't know.

I might be able to get you a pair, which gets you half way there.

Also don't buy into matching so much, as in they all have to be very closely matched. 15-20% is completely acceptable, even for a stickler like me. In general low noise and low microphonics is a bit more important than a super tight match.

Some may not agree with the above statement, but I stand by it.

dhart86

H9 thanks for sharing the knowledge, bro

audiocr381ve

You guys are awesome. Special thanks to Brock and I'll definitely take you up on the offer to help identify the right ones. That's some amazing info you shared.

heiney9

Shane, I think your best option and probably least time consuming is buying (2) pairs. Unless you are buying and paying from a dealer. Not sure what your budget is or what kind of time frame you're expecting.

I think dealers provide an excellent alternative to buying on forums/ebay, etc. But they are much more expensive (for good reason) and I have never wanted (or needed) to spend that kind of money to get great sounding tubes.

In fact many of the tubes I collect/like aren't available from dealers, they are too scarce and too long gone.

It's entirely up to you which direction you want to go. Upscale Audio or Brent Jesse are excellent choices but be prepared to pay a hefty premium for their tubes. They will in almost all cases be true NOS, matched to the nth degree and guaranteed. But you'll pay roughly 5 times the price and most likely more.

Some guys can't sleep at night unless they buy dealer direct.


I don't happen to fall in the category of having to buy from a tube dealer for pristine vintage tubes.

Just my .02c

H9

ZLTFUL

So what you're saying, Brock, is that I should come to you to find the very best quad set for my Cary?

audiocr381ve

heiney9 wrote: »

Shane, I think your best option and probably least time consuming is buying (2) pairs. Unless you are buying and paying from a dealer. Not sure what your budget is or what kind of time frame you're expecting.

I think dealers provide an excellent alternative to buying on forums/ebay, etc. But they are much more expensive (for good reason) and I have never wanted (or needed) to spend that kind of money to get great sounding tubes.

In fact many of the tubes I collect/like aren't available from dealers, they are too scarce and too long gone.

It's entirely up to you which direction you want to go. Upscale Audio or Brent Jesse are excellent choices but be prepared to pay a hefty premium for their tubes. They will in almost all cases be true NOS, matched to the nth degree and guaranteed. But you'll pay roughly 5 times the price and most likely more.

Some guys can't sleep at night unless they buy dealer direct.


I don't happen to fall in the category of having to buy from a tube dealer for pristine vintage tubes.

Just my .02c

H9

I'd like to spend under $150. I got my NOS Mullard CV4003's from Upscale Audio and I'd never like to spend that amount of money on tubes again although I completely understand the value in buying from a dealer.

Money is tight since my wife is on maternity leave so as soon as I can sell off a few pieces of gear, I can't make any moves.

heiney9

ZLTFUL wrote: »

So what you're saying, Brock, is that I should come to you to find the very best quad set for my Cary?

Nope, because I rarely sell anything from my stash, unless I just way over bought. I am working on getting quads and sextets of all my faves (especially the long plates or rarer ones) and I will keep those unless I have a financial hardship.

But I cheat and spend a lot of time on Ebay looking at every post and picture and ask questions to find that treasure someone else doesn't necessarily know they have.

I've gotten good at recognizing features and traits of certain tubes just by photo's. Then try and confirm with codes, etc.

Anyone can buy Mullard long plates for $299/pr. from the guy that gushes about them and knows what he has. It's the sellers that buy tube lots or from hamfests or estates, etc, that have the excellent stuff but don't have the time to sort through it all and recognize that diamond in the rough which I tend to buy from.

Example: I bought a lot of (6) 12AU7 tubes from an estate sale on Ebay just to get an ultra rare 1940's Tung Sol, clear glass, black plate tube. I've never seen another one so far. Stuff like that is what also makes it fun, atleast for me.

H9