Turntable Experts, I Need Assistance

Nightfall

So a friend that owes me money gave me a turntable. It's junk. Yamaha P-31, almost all plastic. Looks like you can't adjust anything on it as far as tracking force, VTA, etc. Anyhow, that's not really the point. The point is I went to the record store today and flipping through vinyl is awesome. I brought it home and started playing what I bought and the whole experience of pulling out this massive flat of wax and putting it on the turntable is extremely appealing to me for whatever reason. I want to get a better table, I don't think there is anything that can be done to this Yamaha to make it acceptable. The problem is I don't know what I'm looking for as far as older tables go. I know the obvious new entry level new tables such as Pro-Ject Carbon, Music Hall MMF 2.2, etc but from what I gather you can do better with used vintage tables? Correct me if I am wrong.

If I can't find something that would be better than a Carbon, in a vintage form, I think I might just get this:

http://fortcollins.craigslist.org/ele/5061516119.html

$200 and it just needs a new stylus.

Would anybody be so kind as to go through Denver, CO Craigslist and look at the numerous vintage turntables and tell me if there is anything worth buying?

http://denver.craigslist.org/sss

mhardy6647

I got overloaded pretty quickly; just from the model and the price these look like they could be worthy of attention to me...
http://denver.craigslist.org/ele/5065437221.html
http://denver.craigslist.org/ele/5062670649.html
http://denver.craigslist.org/ele/5041729744.html
http://denver.craigslist.org/ele/5055733668.html
http://denver.craigslist.org/ele/5056514064.html (needs an arm, but this looks like a nice deck)
http://denver.craigslist.org/ele/4998975764.html (oooh)
http://denver.craigslist.org/ele/5016449088.html
http://denver.craigslist.org/ele/5056929914.html
http://denver.craigslist.org/ele/5013861050.html (not something you see every day)
http://denver.craigslist.org/ele/5007829757.html

Nightfall

You would take any of these over a Pro-Ject Carbon?

What is it with vintage turntables and the built in RCA cables? What if you don't want to use 30-40 year old cables? The P-31 I'm using now at least has female ends on the turntable.

Nightfall

That Denon looks fantastic.

mhardy6647

Perhaps I misunderstood the question -- about half of those I'd take over the ProJect; I thought your question was about value (price/performance ratio) -- thus the sub-hundred-buckers in the list.

I'd definitely (depending on condition of course) take that Denon, the Yamaha or the Micro Seiki over the Project. I'd look hard at the better Technics (although that's a pretty motley collection of the old Technics).

If you really want new phono cables, they are not difficult to fabricate from good components (or you may buy boutique cables if you wish) and to replace them if you don't mind slinging a little solder. I've never been a fan of having jacks on a turntable -- the output from even an MM (to say nothing of an LOMC) cartridge is so delicate, every extra inch of cable and every discontinuity (i.e., plug/jack) represents a pretty fair hit on performance. Hard wire is the better way to go, I'd opine. Pay someone to recable if you wish and if the price isn't too exorbitant.

mhardy6647

The Denon -- if it hasn't been abused -- is not junk.

Nightfall

Would you say the P-550 is a worthwhile upgrade over the P-31? The 550 is from very early 80's while the 31 is from the late 80's. As I take it the mid 80's, when CD's were released, is where turntables started to be junk.

I see that the Yamaha P-550 is nearly 3 full kg heavier than the Project.

mhardy6647

Yes, I would. The 550 is (for what it is) a fairly high-end massmarket tt of its time; they weren't terribly common & they weren't terribly cheap, either. Not in the league of the Micro Seiki or Denon, but pretty respectable.

Nightfall

mhardy6647 wrote: »

Yes, I would. The 550 is (for what it is) a fairly high-end massmarket tt of its time; they weren't terribly common & they weren't terribly cheap, either. Not in the league of the Micro Seiki or Denon, but pretty respectable.

I think I'm going to go for it and probably a replacement cartridge (another thread in itself, so much to learn!). If I really get into this, I'll look at something a little more "audiophile" in the future.

Nightfall

Almost forgot to say thanks @mhardy6647

msg

Jeez, guys. I'm just blown away even by this small selection of available tt's in your area. It's embarrassing the crap that people try to peddle here. It would not be surprising to find tt's here with muddy footprints on them listed for a few hundred dollars.

That Denon sure is neat. And Micro Seiki... How would one go about installing a tonearm and stuff, anyway?

Nightfall

msg wrote: »

Jeez, guys. I'm just blown away even by this small selection of available tt's in your area.

All this "legal" marijuana has people listening to some high quality tunes.

There's almost always vintage Polks for sale here too. PS Audio is made a couple hours away from me. We have RMAF here. Not sure what the real reason is but Colorado loves hifi.

msg

Yeah man, it seems like a friggin smorgasbord of hifi goodness there! What a great place to be for opportunities in this hobby.

I'm curious about vinyl. Interested to see what you end up with.

skrol

The Pioneer PL-200 was my first TT. It was decent for entry level. Some of the Technics listed would be good too. I have always eyed some of the better Denon but right now I am happy with my old Pioneer PL-530. I also have a Technics linear tracking TT that doesn't look like much but surprised the heck out of me with a Pickering cart.

mhardy6647

I thought it was a kind of uninspiring array but on a dollar per dollar basis, some (perhaps even most) of the entry-level components on there last night would be a very decent place to start... assuming, of course, that the tonearm bearings are OK and they're generally in good condition and not overly abused.

By and large, due the their requirement for high mechanical precision, turntables are one class of components for which I think a good default strategy for most folks today is to buy new*. The "problem" is, most (if not all, sorry!) of the inexpensive, minimalist tts today at the sub-$1k pricepoint are... just not all that well made, IMO. Not junk, but, again -- dollar for dollar, they come up short from my perspective. The arm on the Pro-ject Carbon does seem to be pretty decent, though. The platters, bearings and drive systems on the current crop of 'audiophile' cheapies just seems substandard to me. Most of the companies sell a whole slew of upgrades for their wares, so one may, albeit at significant additional expense, upgrade the level of performance of the entry-level decks piecemeal... but I think one still ends up spending $1k or so, just not all at once :-P

From my perspective, for the true entry level, there's nothing wrong with (gasp) something like a Technics SL-BD20. It's all plastic and insubstantial, but it has a competent arm and OK belt drive system (and a flimsy platter) and with a decent T4P cartridge it will play records safely and tunefully. The cost of SL-BD20 should be no more than $20; I always picked up free ones (or other, very similar P-mount decks sold under other brand names) when I saw 'em at the Harvard town dump. They are great for starting out.

* FWIW, I would never, ever recommend buying a used tt that required shipping to its new home! The odds of destruction en route are just too danged high. Even factory packaging isn't a guarantee of survival -- although factory packaging, double boxed is probably pretty likely to survive.

(obviously, all of the above are just a bunch of Marky's opinions; no more and no less!)

motorhead43026

"The point is I went to the record store today and flipping through vinyl is awesome. I brought it home and started playing what I bought and the whole experience of pulling out this massive flat of wax and putting it on the turntable is extremely appealing to me for whatever reason"

I know, it is almost like foreplay....lol.

tonyp063

I'd be interested in getting feedback about what you folks think of Duals.
I've got an opportunity to pick up a 1437 with an Ortofon FX-15 Mkii cart.

Nightfall

Can somebody explain why I hear audible distortion in the latter half of records? It's not extreme or anything but very obvious. It seems only a certain frequency range is effected.

skrol

Cartridge alignment can cause distortion at the later part of the record. Also make sure the anti-skate is set properly.

aprazer402

As you get nearer the center of the record, the groove velocity reduces (in fact the linear speed of the groove is about 1/3 of the speed in the center that it is at the rim). It's like playing the start of your record at 15ips on tape and slowing it down to 3 3/4 by the end of the side. Basic frequency response is affected, due to the cut waveforms becoming shorter. In the limit, high frequencies become too small to move the stylus. A narrow stylus profile helps (though not as much as you'd think) as does accurate set-up (any error is more significant at the inner radius). Any friction in the arm will show more at the inner grooves too. Taken from: http://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/inner-groove-distortion.114444/

nooshinjohn

Nightfall wrote: »

That Denon looks fantastic.

This, even over the Micro Seiki...

nooshinjohn

Nightfall wrote: »

Can somebody explain why I hear audible distortion in the latter half of records? It's not extreme or anything but very obvious. It seems only a certain frequency range is effected.

I use a linear tracker (Yamaha PX-3) for this very reason. Perfect tracking to the groove all the way across the disc. I have heard tables in the near 5k range and slightly above that I would not give up my table for.

Nightfall

nooshinjohn wrote: »

Yamaha PX-3

That is a great looking table. There's a PX-2 without cartridge on eBay right now for $850 OBO, wish I had the money! You got me really wanting one of those two now...

erniejade

The denon looks like it has a ortofon red on it also.

Nightfall

This just popped up. Any thoughts vs the Yamaha P-550? Are there any real world differences between straight, J, and S arms? I did a Google but all I found was a bunch of bickering.

Pioneer PL-518X

http://denver.craigslist.org/ele/5068935022.html

mhardy6647

The PL-518 models were "pretty OK" direct drives -- the biggest issue at this late date is that the suspension feet have deteriorated; check them carefully. New feet could of course be fabricated; just sayin'. Given a choice, and all things being equal, I'd lean towards Technics for a late 1970s DD tt, but the Pioneers were OK, too.

S vs. straight :- ) Yes, wars have been fought over less. In principle, I prefer straight arms; in practice, the ol' Japanese arms were, if nothing else, generally well made and - in the real world (and IMO) - it doesn't make a big difference in and of itself.

I believe the notion that, early on, the Japanese decided to copy the SME arm of the time (which wasn't, technically, "S" shaped, more of a "J" arm) and this influenced a "generation" (for lack of a better word) of Japanese-made/sourced consumer hifi record players. The "S" arms certainly have a cool "precision engineered" look, don't they? That look sold back in the '70s for hifi.

EDIT: In the late-60s/early-70s, there were some pretty nice looking (at least) J-shaped Japanese arms; and some pretty serious "transcription-style" Japanese tts. Interested parties are referred to www.audio-heritage.jp and/or its brute-force translated version www.audio-database.com :- )




All in all, of that era, I'd rather have a (straight-armed) Thorens -- but they're a) less common and b) more expensive (even today). Heck, as I'm sure you know, I use a 1970s vintage Technics DD as my everyday tt; and I do have other choices ;- )


DSC_8946 by Mark Hardy, on Flickr

Heh -- I need to take a new/better photo of the SL-Q2 someday; I do have it on a shelf upon which it actually fits nowadays :-P

Nightfall

I went for the P-550. This is the sellers picture from Craigslist so if he removes the listing it will probably disappear. Much better highs. Stanton 720? cartridge. Isn't that for DJ's and scratching? That's what I associate Stanton with. I don't have enough time before work to do any real listening but I'm happy! He lowered the price to $75 even. It's several times the weight of the P-31 I was using. I'm turning into mhardy! I have Yamaha RX-A1020 AVR, CA-1010 integrated, P-550 turntable, P-31 turntable, and had a RX-V667 AVR that I gave to a friend last Christmas. 5 Yamahas.

Next on the list, a new cartridge for this. Recommendations?

mhardy6647

... and I don't even own any Yamaha tts -- if you can imagine such a thing ;-)

Should be very decent. I'd put a Grado or an M97xe on it... but I am sure many (many!) here will have other suggestions...

PS Stanton made some wonderful cartridges & styli in their time. In case you don't know, the classic Stanton & Pickering brands were those of the same company & styli were generally interchangeable between Stanton & Pickering branded cartridges (FWIW).

Nightfall

What do you think of Orfoton?

Nightfall

Also I'm hearing a lot less inner half of record distortion. Maybe the needle on the P-31 is done or it's because the P-31 isn't adjustable in any way as far as anti-skate and tracking force? Okay, I'm going to be late, got to get to work.

voltz

I had a Pro-ject Carbon, with a OrToFon Red and then add a blue that last 15 minutes before I snap the stylus off they are very nice, but there is a black and Bronze that cost more,
Currently I using a MC blue point #2 and really like it in my newer Pro-Ject Xperience Classic and really like it so much better.

They have been a lot of good ones mention on another thread not long ago. like the Denon DL-103 & 103R that so many rave about...