Speaker wire sound

don0

What are the characteristics of speaker wire that makes them sound different from other speaker wire?

[Deleted User]

Hello,
To say this is a controversial subject would be an understatement and it is one that almost always causes arguments that go beyond the original question and into personal attacks. Frankly, I don't believe a meaningful discussion of this subject can be held on Club Polk without degrading into a bottomless mire.
Prove me wrong, have a friendly discussion without name calling, character assault, doctored cartoons or fake posters and I'll be amazed. Don't take something someone says, alter it and say , "fixed it for you". Make a response with an actual attempt to further the knowledge of the person asking the question without resorting to the usual antics and it'll make my week.
Thanks, Ken

tonyb

We can certainly have a meaningful discussion on cables without dropping into the gutter.

Dono,

First thing you have to understand is we all hear things differently, so take all comments with a grain of salt to a certain extent.

That said, cable differences exist just like auto differences exist or any other consumer products. Different metallurgy used, design, contribute some to the final sound you'll hear. Some are slight differences, some more profound, depends on your ability to hear and if your system is revealing enough to make those differences more audible.

Then there is synergy. A bright sounding speaker and a bright sounding cable together will get you a bright sound in the end. You may like that type of sound, others may not. Normally we like to match characteristics of cables to compliment the speakers and what one's personal preferences are. All in all, cables and audio in general is one of those things that require some trial and error on each individuals part to see what will float your boat and what won't. Kinda like trying on a pair of shoes at the store. Yeah, they fit well, are priced right, but when you actually start walking in them for a period of time they hurt your feet.

You'll hear both those for and against differences in cables, but truly the only way to decide is to experience it for yourself with your ears in your system. There is no cut and dry answer.

Jim Shearer

As far as I can tell, for a piece of wire (no additional bits of electronic parts allowed!), the factors are:
-- resistance
-- capacitance
-- inductance

By using different materials, different gauge wire, single or multi-stranded wire, and different arrangement of multi-strands, you can change all of those parameters and change the sound.

And of course, up stream components each put their own imprint on the sound as well.

I have chosen to take the advice of a learned sound engineer (I forget his name) who said to put your first $10K into the components and stick with moderately priced interconnects and speaker wire.

But we are all victims of our own experience...

So spend your money where it makes you feel happiest,

Cheers, Jim

vmaxer

It would be very nice if people could tell their actual experiences.

tonyb

vmaxer wrote: »

It would be very nice if people could tell their actual experiences.

The forum is loaded with actual experiences. Just do a search....also the MIT demo sticky is loaded with reviews.

vmaxer

tonyb wrote: »

vmaxer wrote: »

It would be very nice if people could tell their actual experiences.

The forum is loaded with actual experiences. Just do a search....also the MIT demo sticky is loaded with reviews.

I know, I was meaning a thread that wouldn't get bashed by naysayers that haven't experienced cables making a difference. A lot seem to want to just argue and have no experience. I know as I get better equipment the cables make a bigger difference.

A good cable thread for a change is really what I meant.

steveinaz

I have never cared for multi-strand/large gage wire. It just sounds hashy and unfocused to me; I don't know why. I think the cables "topology" is very important to how it will sound. I prefer the strands run individually in a groups of insulated sets; and I also like the sound of solid copper conductors, individually insulated; though I find this design better for speakers that are a little too laid back in treble.

Do I have any science to back this up? Nope, not a stitch. That's why it's called an opinion, take it for what it's worth....

ukcolin99

Brilliant, more speaker cable information...

vmaxer

steveinaz wrote: »

I have never cared for multi-strand/large gage wire. It just sounds hashy and unfocused to me; I don't know why. I think the cables "topology" is very important to how it will sound. I prefer the strands run individually in a groups of insulated sets; and I also like the sound of solid copper conductors, individually insulated; though I find this design better for speakers that are a little too laid back in treble.

Do I have any science to back this up? Nope, not a stitch. That's why it's called an opinion, take it for what it's worth....

I don't think science will back actual experience, not for a minute. I have had MIT cables sound great in systems and I have had them sound bad in other systems, can't begin to explain, but it is real.

tonyb

vmaxer wrote: »

tonyb wrote: »

vmaxer wrote: »

It would be very nice if people could tell their actual experiences.

The forum is loaded with actual experiences. Just do a search....also the MIT demo sticky is loaded with reviews.

I know, I was meaning a thread that wouldn't get bashed by naysayers that haven't experienced cables making a difference. A lot seem to want to just argue and have no experience. I know as I get better equipment the cables make a bigger difference.

A good cable thread for a change is really what I meant.

Well, you are on the right track, better gear makes differences in cables more profound. It's no wonder many upgrade cables as their system gets better and better playmates.

As far as a cable thread not getting bashed, we used to be able to do that but there's always someone ready to argue the merits. Which is fine but usually doesn't end well.

The best piece of audio advice I can offer is....try stuff for yourself. Least what the old wallet will allow anyway. Form your own opinions with experience and not internet articles or marketing hype.

If you can do that, your audio journey will be blissful and fun......maybe a tad aggravating too. We have boatloads of members here with a vast array of experience with many types of audio gear to point you in the right direction and even save you a ton of cash.

BurrInspector

This debate will never end, I have tried few cables in systems where it made no difference and then in some where it had a little impact.. But enough for an average user to spend hundreds or even thousands more? Really depends. My mates 2ch B&W 683's system had a little change in the highs when moving from monster cables to wireworld cables, though his dedicated HT JBL es 90's seemed to not gain much from having better cables.

This whole debate would never come to an end imho, cause it largely depends on the type of gear you have and what speakers you are driving. Best solution is buying what you can afford and know that the system you just bought will benefit to a point if you can deliver the cleanest signal or power to your shinny new speakers (basics). Justifying thousands spent on cables always comes down to the user and what category of listeners they are.. Think most people have a hard time budgeting for cables and mostly average users who have read all the industry advancements of high end cables.

don0

Thanks for all the replies. Some good info.

I have read a lot of post on here some saying that cables sound different and some saying not. I recently replaced some large cables, probably #10, that had turned a little green from end to end with some #14 oxygen free, whatever that means.

I had never noticed a difference in past years with other cables, but there was a difference in sound with these cables at first. The difference was mostly in the mid and high frequencies, but the difference seems to have mostly disappeared now.
I started this thread out of curiosity as to what caused the difference..

Nightfall

There's also more than just tonal differences to listen for. Assuming you have spent time getting speaker positioning just right there are differences in soundstage and imaging.

marvda1

there are differences in speed and balance from treble to midrange to bass.

Hermitism

don0 wrote: »

I had never noticed a difference in past years with other cables, but there was a difference in sound with these cables at first. The difference was mostly in the mid and high frequencies, but the difference seems to have mostly disappeared now.
I started this thread out of curiosity as to what caused the difference..

A lot of people talk about "burn-in" which may be what you experienced. When I purchased my cables (new, not used) I think the sound changed over a couple weeks time from either the burn-in process that some speak of, or my ears became adjusted to the difference. I think they have a warmer sound than when they were first installed. Less harsh. And the soundstage (the positions of the instruments and vocals) became wider and easier to locate and picture in my mind. The biggest difference after purchasing my last speaker cables was a huge increase in detail at low volume levels in which I listen to music. I had complained repeatedly that my speakers sounded flat at a low volume and I had to increase the volume to a level higher than I liked, to make the sound more detailed and vibrant. My last speaker cables solved that issue.

SCompRacer

don0 wrote: »

..... with some #14 oxygen free, whatever that means.

The is really no 100% oxygen free copper that I am aware of, just copper that the O2 content is significantly limited or reduced. So you see the 99.997 advertised copper or hear the infamous "four 9's copper".

Real basic, when O2 is low, you form less copper oxide content in the wire which leads to larger crystals. Less crystals or grain per foot means there are not as many boundaries for the signal to cross. IIRC like four times less. In reality, I read that you only get 1% better conductivity than regular copper, but the claim is the signal is degraded less with high OFC copper.

Google it and you can find all kinds of info on it.

PSOVLSK

don0 wrote: »

Thanks for all the replies. Some good info.

I have read a lot of post on here some saying that cables sound different and some saying not. I recently replaced some large cables, probably #10, that had turned a little green from end to end with some #14 oxygen free, whatever that means.

I had never noticed a difference in past years with other cables, but there was a difference in sound with these cables at first. The difference was mostly in the mid and high frequencies, but the difference seems to have mostly disappeared now.
I started this thread out of curiosity as to what caused the difference..

Bolded part may account for the difference you heard. I had some outdoor speakers where the cables got so bad the sound was pathetic. Replaced cable that was pretty bad, but the sound still improved.

tonyb

Your ears will eventually adjust to the new sound of any new cable introduced into your system. To get a better grasp on the amount of change it brought to the table, throw the old cables back in after awhile and see if the sound is better or worse.

tonyb

xcapri79 wrote: »

[ capacitance and inductance have a minimal audible effect on the signal, as does conductor orientation and construction, i.e. stranding. More strands allows the cable to be more flexible and that is it.

As usual, you couldn't be more wrong, but that is your opinion and your allowed that, not that anyone agrees' with it though.

steveinaz

xcapri79 wrote: »

Most of the talk about differences in sound between cables and whatnot is not based on any reproducible science, but instead on anecdotal opinion that is largely due to placebo effects based on someone's perception that costly exotic cables sound better.

I used to believe this as well until I did an "upgrade" of 14ga multi-strand for some Bose 901's years ago. I needed longer runs due to a change in setup, and didn't really expect any differences--boy was I wrong. That set of cables lasted about 9 hours, and I pulled them out. They were more expensive than the cables they replaced. While the "placebo" effect can certainly influence peoples perceptions, it's not always the case; as demonstrated perfectly in my case. The cables were pricier, had much nicer terminations, and (most of all) I wanted them to work. So much for placebo.

Another example of reverse placebo involves my auditioning of Audioquest IC's. I actually preferred the much cheaper Sidewinder to the Diamondback---even though I'm not "suppose to." The Diamondbacks just had a very dry, 2 dimensional tone to them that I could NOT tolerate. The 70% CHEAPER Sidewinders went back in place and the Diamondbacks were sold.

steveinaz

xcapri79 wrote: »

I have also experienced poor sounding "exotic" cables myself. We were testing the sound differences between various cables. Upon closer inspection, these were of insufficient gauge for the lower impedance Polk LSi9's that we were using.

Did you hear yourself? (Note the bold text)

steveinaz

My point? The "science" of this is largely of no consequence once you get past electrical requirements; Anymore than telling me I shouldn't like the way something taste, because its ingredients are objectionable to most---yet I still like it, and continue to enjoy it.

Scientifically speaking, no one needs a Corvette. If your driving legal speed limits you'd never know the difference between it or any sedan; yet people still buy them. Why? because it's important to some to know that the car isn't the limiting factor in their travels.

steveinaz

Wire is a component, much like a resistor, capacitor, or inductor. A very simple component, but a component none the less; and as such shouldn't be dismissed as unable to change the tone of music passed thru it. To say that cables don't matter, is to say that all wire is 100% transparent, no?

I WISH this were true, it would save me alot of money, as I'm not really interested in impressing anyone.

BlueFox

xcapri79 wrote: »

Most of the talk about differences in sound between cables and whatnot is not based on any reproducible science, but instead on anecdotal opinion that is largely due to placebo effects based on someone's perception that costly exotic cables sound better. Numerous double blind studies have shown that audible sound differences with various properly sized cables are simply not there, but instead, are based on myths and pseudoscience aka "snake-oil" which are typically perpetuated by "overly-enthusiastic" users, and the cable marketers and manufacturer's who stand to be rewarded with large profit margins.

This is another post of yours that will, once again, get this thread closed, like so many others.

Although you have zero data to support your statement, you continue to insult people by saying they are psychotic because they have found better cables increases the sound quality of their gear. Then you insult all cable manufactures by saying they are just taking advantage of the psychotic customers.

SCompRacer

xcapri79 wrote: »

[ capacitance and inductance have a minimal audible effect on the signal, as does conductor orientation and construction, i.e. stranding. More strands allows the cable to be more flexible and that is it.

However, capacitive loads can send some amps into oscillation which is audible. Therefore you can't make your statement an absolute. Examples of capacitive loads are ESL speakers, which are not so rare as to escape mention. Pair them with the incorrect amp and highly capacitive cables and you will difinitely 'hear' the point.

There were some amp manuafcaturers that actually listed speaker cables that would void the amp warranty. InnerSound was one amp manufacturer that I can think of. IIRC it was a particular Goertz cable.

tonyb

My Butler recommends unshielded cables for some reason. Some manufacturers of cables suggest that shielding distracts some from the over all SQ. I've yet to verify that myself though.

vmaxer

@Zero
Who is Don??

leftwinger57

Tony, your 1st response was awesome. Now for me as a former alarm installer doesn't Ohm's law play a major factor in all of this ? With gauge of wire,length of runs, materials used and I'll throw in efficiency of the speakers and how clean your amp is and the sources being used. My real world experience,I went from Home Depot 14 gu. clear to Audio Quest 14 gu, and settled on BJC Belden 12 gauge for my 2Bs and my TF 350s. Did I hear a difference,yes each time but this is all my wallet will allow.

vmaxer

Zero wrote: »

@vmaxer - Don is the OP.

Thanks, thought it may be x??

PSOVLSK

I've listened with Skip, Marvin, Danny, and Halen at different times when cables were changed out. For the most part I couldn't really discern much, if any difference, but they could all tell a difference. Were they just imagining a difference and making things up? If so,l how can you explain that on many occasions once they described the differences, I could then pick up on it? I just don't see why it's so hard to believe that some people have better hearing and can pick up details that others can't. I also don't see why it's so hard to believe that someone could "learn" to listen simply by listening with others who can point out the differences. This doesn't even take into account the fact that some people simply have better hearing than others.

If you're having a whiskey and don't notice the smokiness, does that means it's not there and anyone who says they taste smokiness is crazy? Could another person not easily taste the smokiness and possibly teach you how to discern the complexity of the drink?