proof positive avrs suck for music

leftwinger57

I've told this story many times. For newbies interested in getting dual purpose avrs (h/t, music) I say don't you'll never be happy w/ tunes. In my case I got a Yamaha RX-V665 90 watts driven. Now I know it's 90 divided by each channel and is a false type of rating. I tried to ' air it out' and the thing clipped and went into protecto mode and the thing came back. I called Yamaha and they blamed my speakers,ha. Yesterday I called Klipsch and told them this story and they literally started to laugh and said they have heard this hundreds of times. They said my Klipsch# 500 H/D smalls could handle 100 watts of pure power and of course not to go nuts w/ the volume control. They liked the idea of my external Adcom and said it never was the speakers but a lame powered avr. 1 MORE POINT Yamaha slouched on power for nonsensical effects that amount varying degrees of echo and delay.

tonyb

Maybe you should change that thread title to "cheap" avr's suck for music. The more expensive totl receivers can actually surprise you.

ZLTFUL

^ This.

And while power ratings tend to be over-bloated with AVR manufacturer specs, the Pioneer Elite D/ICE amps are pretty danged solid.

The problem isn't necessarily the AVRs themselves as much as most users not knowing their limitations and pushing the into clipping on a regular basis.

msg

I can attest to this for cheaper AVR's and "big" inefficient speakers, however, as noted above, more powerful AVR's can be quite pleasing. I'm using an older B&K AVR 507 and it's very smooth and I really enjoy it. if I had it to do over again, knowing what I know now, I'd seriously consider just going stereo all the way, even for TV.

hardware specs definitely make it difficult for new people to get a proper sense of what to buy. I found it maddening, and along the lines of what the lefty details.

WagnerRC

I use both arcam avr350 and pioneer elite sc27 and they both work great!

cnh

Those earlier Yammies were ALWAYS under-powered. No surprise there. It is what FORCED Yamaha to introduce the Aventage series because everyone knew their stock AVRs S U C K E D!

Now the Aventage have closed the gap. But most are HIGHER models than the 600 series! Starting around $1K+.

polkfarmboy

Expensive avrs may not suck but they are aslo not good. One can buy a dedicated 2ch component and a cheap avr and have it all.

tonyb

polkfarmboy wrote: »

Expensive avrs may not suck but they are aslo not good. One can buy a dedicated 2ch component and a cheap avr and have it all.

One can do a lot of things to up their 2 channel game, but not everyone has the means to do so or the room. Good sound can be had at any level, above Hello Kitty gear anyway.

If a receiver is in your cards for music, I'd go with the higher up ones or the vintage ones. Those in-between simply don't cut the mustard for music.

leftwinger57

I hear ya Tony.I bought into the bloated wattage rating and was thinking of going w/ the higher end Denon at the time but finances just could not swing it. Most here agree whether you have the bestes avr in world history it's still better to go w/ separates or at the very least add that external amp. I was LUCKY, I knew nothing of pre-outs before. Just being a voyeur here for a while before I gabbed my 2Bs and got my Adcom from Audio Classics sight and sound unseen for $300 shipped.

polkfarmboy

@Tony, I was refering to price of a high cost high end AVR. You can buy a yaqin tube integrated and a midrange avr for the price of a high end avr.

tonyb

True....many avenues for sure, but that Yaqin won't have HT pass through I think anyway, plus won't power some more demanding floorstanders, and is another piece taking up space, plus additional cabling.

The good thing is, we have such a variety of gear available to us that you can find anything to fit your needs and enjoy some good tunes

Polkie2009

cnh wrote: »

Those earlier Yammies were ALWAYS under-powered. No surprise there. It is what FORCED Yamaha to introduce the Aventage series because everyone knew their stock AVRs S U C K E D!

Now the Aventage have closed the gap. But most are HIGHER models than the 600 series! Starting around $1K+.

Point well taken cnh. I had owned my Yammy 663 for a year or so before the 665 came out. People over at AVS forum were already warning folks that the new 665 model was a weak sister compared to the 663, much smaller power supply, cheaper parts etc. Since I run all external amps from the pre outs , I'm eventually wanting to step up to a good used pre/pro soon in the $1000-$1500 range and I'm not talking about Emotiva. A lot of companies no longer sell the pre/pro, they figure there's more of a viable market for the higher end avrs as has been mentioned above.

WagnerRC

I also have a marantz 2385 for 2 channel listening

tonyb

I'd take that Marantz over pretty much any modern entry level receiver for music. Entry level AVR's have their place in the world though, just like spam in a can does.

WagnerRC

The 2385 is 185wpc

gce

I have a newer Marantz and it sounded good for music on its own. I've added amps for the fronts and now it sounds even better. But I'm still wanting to get an integrated. The ladder goes as high as you can climb in this hobby.

Nightfall

I had a RX-V667 before I stepped up to an Aventage. That thing sucked for music. The Aventage isn't super awesome at music, but compared to the RX-V it is.

Nightfall

nbrowser wrote: »

hrm my Onkyo TX-NR717 ain't too bad for music, then again I've never heard a pair of main speakers actually connected to it. As a pre/pro though it supplies a good signal to an external amplifier.

We'll never know what we're missing until we get a 2 channel preamp, and in our case with HT bypass.

WagnerRC

I bought the mf 6si and it is one hell of an amp and the ht bypass kicks ****

Nightfall

nbrowser wrote: »

So your talking to me again?

I guess.

Inspector 24

I tried to ' air it out' and the thing clipped and went into protecto mode and the thing came back

You activated power protection on these tiny little speakers??

How the hell far did you turn it up?!?!

leftwinger57

Oh way to the plus side. But like I said it was NOT the speakers that failed. Call Klipsch yourself (800-554-7724) and see how much pure watts they can handle and that avrs are the culprit here. When I bought the Klipsch smalls they were far and away better than any other brand of smalls I tested including Polk, Def-Tec,Infinity another brand that escapes me now. Do not knock em until you hear them w/ the right power source. W/ the Adcom for my 18'x15' living room they are great. After all they are called smalls for a reason......

tonyb

Way to the plus side ? C'mon man, you've been around long enough to know better than that.

That's not the speakers fault, nor is it the receivers fault, it's the fault of the user, plain and simple.

EndersShadow

As stated the higher you go AVR wise the better it is... Plus knowing what we know, you alleviate SOME of the pressure off your AVR and use it mainly for your surrounds and heights or wides...

Myself I'm in DEEP DEEP debates on a Marantz SR7009 (AVR) or a Marantz AV8801 or AV7702 (both pre-amps with XT32).... for me the main thing is the 7709 gives me the flexibility to add height/wides and atmos speakers (of a easy to drive 8 ohm load) while letting my B&K amp flex its weight for the 5 channels of LSi speakers I have....

Erik Tracy

AVRs can provide good results - no doubt. And there can be sonic gains by going with external amplification, but I won't delude myself into thinking an AVR is the penultimate component to use as the heart of a music based system.

Gotta go with either a good quality integrated or separates.

The preamp being the most critical section of an AVR that is a swiss army knife of features that will hold back that 'omg - *that* is what I'm missing' experience for musical presentation/performance.

imho, of course.

tonyb

Well stated Erik, couldn't agree more.

btown1985

Take a look at my setup. Definitely not much to brag about but I have been on this journey for many years. Some really old stuff and some kinda new. The consistency has always been finding quality used pieces from honest people who share this love and RESPECT the gear...hobbyists who take care of it. Worked my way up from old Klipsch speakers and Yamaha AVR's and a host of other setups to decent separates. Very seldom have I spent much more, just buying and selling is where its at man. I say ENJOY the journey, learn a lot along the way and keep an eye out for possible additions/upgrades at reasonable prices based on condition! Good Luck man

leftwinger57

Tony I don't think you understand me. Yes originally I did go into the + zone and it clipped. Learned about the external amp and again went into the + zone w/ great loud and clear results. I did ask them about my idea of using my unused ports of my Adcom to go back to the pre=outs and they said not a good idea just do what I'm doing which is either strictly H/T or to audio mute my Klipsch Smalls and use all the sources out of the Yammi into the tuner in of my NAD1020a and have the best of both worlds.

tonyb

I do understand you LW, point being is no entry level AVR on it's own is made to go into the + side of the dial without adding lots of distortion or clipping. Heck most good avr's aren't either. Why would you even do that knowing you can do some damage which I think your lucky in that respect you didn't. It's not Yamaha's fault you got crazy on the volume dial, and if a speaker blew up it wouldn't be Klipsch's fault either.

Sure, adding an amp is gonna give you some added headroom, but even then walking on the positive side of the dial is not a smart thing to do without careful considerations.

If the point your trying to make is basic receivers are low on quality power, point taken, and repeated often around here too.

tonyb

WagnerRC wrote: »

I bought the mf 6si and it is one hell of an amp and the ht bypass kicks ****

LOL....ya know, I still kick myself in the arse for not holding that one in my back pocket for myself. Glad your digging it.

Inspector 24

tonyb wrote: »

Way to the plus side ?

That's not the speakers fault, nor is it the receivers fault, it's the fault of the user, plain and simple.

Right!

Sounds like you wanted to find the failing point and you're dosappointed that you did?

Sounds like you'll be lucky if you haven't done some damage from clipping the heck out of the signal.