Digital Interconnect Cables - What's Your Experience?
Comments
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Don't think so. The coax is transporting a converted signal, whereas usb transfers files. Never seen a dig coax out of a hard drive. My point is that we are talking about file transfer, not a DAC converted signal.
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A "DAC converted signal" is an analog signal. The sign is digital until it is handed off to the DAC.
The files are in binary format when they are stored on a hard drive and the signals representing the files as they transfer will be in binary (digital) format. The signal flow in my two channels system is as follows:
Binary music file stored on BDP-2 digital file player's hard drive ==>file is transported as a digital signal through the BDP-2 and is exits via the USB, coaxial, or AES/EBU output ==>digital file (as a digital signal) is transmitted through digital cable to the CD 306 Pro Version's digital to analog converter stage==> digital signal is converted to an analog signal and is transmitted to the XP-30 preamp's input.Proud and loyal citizen of the Digital Domain and Solid State Country! -
My laptop sends a digital audio signal from itself to my DAC via USB. It isn't sending files to the DAC because my DAC is *just* a DAC. It isn't a streaming device. Ergo, USB and digital coax would be sending the exact same signal in this case."Some people find it easier to be conceited rather than correct."
"Unwad those panties and have a good time man. We're all here to help each other, no matter how it might appear." DSkip -
(And before we get into this whole can of worms, I have nearly 20 years of computer systems engineering experience and knowledge and can assure you that digital communications between computers is pretty much the same thing as digital audio communications with the only true differences being the types of compression being used and the translation devices at each end. The signals are, for all intents and purposes, the same.)"Some people find it easier to be conceited rather than correct."
"Unwad those panties and have a good time man. We're all here to help each other, no matter how it might appear." DSkip -
That supports my premise, I think. I understand the delivery of the information is essentially the same, but the source of transmission is binary and has limits of what is acceptable and what is not. The file is perfect, or it is un-readable. Once it is processed by a DAC, and on it's way to another source, whether 're-read' or ended in a signal determines it's eventual sound signature.
To get back to the original question. Can one USB cable transfer binary information with a better sound quality than another? Have not seen anything to make me think otherwise.
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The file is perfect, or it is un-readable. Once it is processed by a DAC, and on it's way to another source, whether 're-read' or ended in a signal determines it's eventual sound signature.
This is a popular misconception. However, a "perfect" digital file, meaning one in which the differences between high and low are clearly distinguishable, will still have varying amounts of noise corruption in every bit.
As I stated previously in this thread, there is no such thing as a "digital" signal that consists only of high and low pulses. A "digital" signal is actually an analog signal with quasi-digital waveform characteristics. Since a digital signal is actually an analog signal, it is subject to the same noise corruption mechanisms as any other analog signal. However, a digital signal will be less affected by some noise mechanisms that affect signal amplitude.To get back to the original question. Can one USB cable transfer binary information with a better sound quality than another? Have not seen anything to make me think otherwise.
I started this thread with the same question. So far, I have not heard a difference among the USB cables I have auditioned, but it is theoretically possible. The key thing to grasp is that real world "binary information" does not consist of just high (1) and low (0) square wave pulses. There are deformations in the waveform which are analog in nature and there is noise being transmitted along with the digital signal. That noise can be transmitted all the way through the DAC and have an audible effect on sound quality.
Proud and loyal citizen of the Digital Domain and Solid State Country! -
A file transfer is a transfer of binary information. Any information sent over USB, coax, HDMI, SATA, IDE, or optical is all the same, whether it's a MP3, FLAC, video, power point presentation, or word document: 1's and 0's.Don't think so. The coax is transporting a converted signal, whereas usb transfers files. Never seen a dig coax out of a hard drive. My point is that we are talking about file transfer, not a DAC converted signal.afterburnt wrote: »They didn't speak a word of English, they were from South Carolina.
Village Idiot of Club Polk -
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/feb08/articles/digitalaudio.htm
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/jun98/articles/digital2.html
Pretty in depth article. Talks about cable induced clock pulse differences, such as DK was observing.afterburnt wrote: »They didn't speak a word of English, they were from South Carolina.
Village Idiot of Club Polk -
From your first link.
"Another source of jitter (the strongest source these days) is cable-induced. If you pass digital signals down a long cable (or fibre), the nice square-wave signals that enter degrade into something that looks more like shark fins at the other end, with slowed rise and fall times. This is caused by the cable's capacitance (or the fibre's internal light dispersion), so the longer the cable, the worse the degradation becomes. That's why digital cables need to be wide-bandwidth, low-capacitance types."Lumin X1 file player, Westminster Labs interconnect cable
Sony XA-5400ES SACD; Pass XP-22 pre; X600.5 amps
Magico S5 MKII Mcast Rose speakers; SPOD spikes
Shunyata Triton v3/Typhon QR on source, Denali 2000 (2) on amps
Shunyata Sigma XLR analog ICs, Sigma speaker cables
Shunyata Sigma HC (2), Sigma Analog, Sigma Digital, Z Anaconda (3) power cables
Mapleshade Samson V.3 four shelf solid maple rack, Micropoint brass footers
Three 20 amp circuits. -
That supports my premise, I think. I understand the delivery of the information is essentially the same, but the source of transmission is binary and has limits of what is acceptable and what is not. The file is perfect, or it is un-readable. Once it is processed by a DAC, and on it's way to another source, whether 're-read' or ended in a signal determines it's eventual sound signature.
To get back to the original question. Can one USB cable transfer binary information with a better sound quality than another? Have not seen anything to make me think otherwise.
Why would one digital cable (AES/EBU, Coaxial, USB, or Ethernet (Cat.5, 6, etc) be unaffected by the laws of physics? They are all transporting the digital signal(s) in the same fashion. All digital cable types use some type of transporting material (i.e. Metals such as copper, silver, gold, platinum, etc.; or more exotic materials like liquid ceramic). Regardless of what medium is used to transport the digital signal, all electrons are subject to the affects of natural laws.
There are design aspects of the geometry, metallurgy (i.e. PCOCC as an example), and dialectric(s) used that can affect the amount of noise introduced and the speed at which the digital signal travels through the digital cable. This can affect the quality of the digital signal the DAC receives and thus the quality of the audio you hear. To think this is not true of ANY digital cable is a falsehood. This is not to say that some digital cables don't reduce the amount of affects on digital signals, but ALL cables affect the digital signal. To think otherwise would be disregarding physical laws.
Taken from a recent Audioholics reply regarding "Club Polk" and Polk speakers:
"I'm yet to hear a Polk speaker that merits more than a sentence and 60 seconds discussion."![:\](https://forum.polkaudio.com/resources/emoji/confused.png ":\")
My response is: If you need 60 seconds to respond in one sentence, you probably should't be evaluating Polk speakers.....
"Green leaves reveal the heart spoken Khatru"- Jon Anderson
"Have A Little Faith! And Everything You'll Face, Will Jump From Out Right On Into Place! Yeah! Take A Little Time! And Everything You'll Find, Will Move From Gloom Right On Into Shine!"- Arthur Lee -
Makes sense and I am a neophyte in this regard. Just asking questions and trying to wrap my head around the difference between file transfer and a processed signal.
When using my ext hard drive, the files get loaded to my bluray through the usb. The DAC in the blurry converts the signal and goes to the AVR via HDMI.
So am I to assume that different USB cables can do a better job of transferring the files that make an audible difference? I don't know and am not disputing anything, just interested, and a bit skeptical. -
If your Bluray player is connected to your AVR via HDMI then you are using the DAC in your AVR. HDMI does not carry an analog signal.When using my ext hard drive, the files get loaded to my bluray through the usb. The DAC in the blurry converts the signal and goes to the AVR via HDMI.afterburnt wrote: »They didn't speak a word of English, they were from South Carolina.
Village Idiot of Club Polk -
Makes sense and I am a neophyte in this regard. Just asking questions and trying to wrap my head around the difference between file transfer and a processed signal.
Two people have already explained that there is not a difference between a file transfer and the digital signal processed by a media server or a DAC. They are both digital signals consisting of high and low pulses.So am I to assume that different USB cables can do a better job of transferring the files that make an audible difference?
Yes you can assume that. Any time a signal goes through a cable, it is changed in some way. Whether the change is audible depends on the type and degree of change, the resolution of your audio gear, your ears, listening room, and the characteristics of the recording.Proud and loyal citizen of the Digital Domain and Solid State Country! -
Just curious DK, when a file hits your BDP 2 from your storage device, does it convert the signal in anyway or does it simply pass it on ? Some convert to analog then re-digitalize the signal, stripping out the jitter and re-clocking before sending it out again. It does have to read the signal in order to store it, is that all done in the digital domain ?
That could be a good thing or a bad thing, depending. I would think though, the less monkeying around with a signal, the better.HT SYSTEM-
Sony 850c 4k
Pioneer elite vhx 21
Sony 4k BRP
SVS SB-2000
Polk Sig. 20's
Polk FX500 surrounds
Cables-
Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable
Kitchen
Sonos zp90
Grant Fidelity tube dac
B&k 1420
lsi 9's -
Don't worry deronb1...everyone starts somewhere.
The computer geek in me argues that it shouldn't make any different as long as it passes, it should be identical.
But my ears tell me a different story when I switched from cheap Chinese CAT5 cable to a name brand CAT6 cable. My wife who is far from being an audiophile (95% of the time when I say something related to audio, her eyes glaze over and she moans in protest) even asked what I did to the HT system to make it sound better. All I did was upgrade my digital cables.
The computer guy in me says Bits are Bits and you can't change that.
The audiophile in me has heard otherwise.
"Some people find it easier to be conceited rather than correct."
"Unwad those panties and have a good time man. We're all here to help each other, no matter how it might appear." DSkip -
Just curious DK, when a file hits your BDP 2 from your storage device, does it convert the signal in anyway or does it simply pass it on ? Some convert to analog then re-digitalize the signal, stripping out the jitter and re-clocking before sending it out again. It does have to read the signal in order to store it, is that all done in the digital domain ?
The BDP-2 does not do any signal conversion. It only provides a low noise path for the signal to be output as either AES/EBU, coax, or USB. It also provides an efficient means for storing and managing large music libraries.The computer geek in me argues that it shouldn't make any different as long as it passes, it should be identical.
It doesn't make a difference with digital data that is not particularly sensitive to noise and time relationships. An email data stream only cares about maintaining the difference between high and low pulses. A voice, video, or music data stream cares about the shape of pulses and the time relationships between pulses.The computer guy in me says Bits are Bits and you can't change that.
The audiophile in me has heard otherwise.
If bits were just bits, telecommunications and computer networking companies would not have different digital network design criteria for data-only networks compared to those that transport time sensitive traffic such as voice and video.
Proud and loyal citizen of the Digital Domain and Solid State Country! -
Raife, you're preaching to the converted brother man.
"Some people find it easier to be conceited rather than correct."
"Unwad those panties and have a good time man. We're all here to help each other, no matter how it might appear." DSkip -
At this point, a self-proclaimed expert needs to step-in and assure you guys that what you are hearing is impossible. In fact, it is because you are delusional that you think you hear a difference.
Zltful, thanks for the CAT5/CAT6 info. When I read about audiophile Ethernet cables I would wonder if just going to CAT6 or CAT7 would improve the sound.Lumin X1 file player, Westminster Labs interconnect cable
Sony XA-5400ES SACD; Pass XP-22 pre; X600.5 amps
Magico S5 MKII Mcast Rose speakers; SPOD spikes
Shunyata Triton v3/Typhon QR on source, Denali 2000 (2) on amps
Shunyata Sigma XLR analog ICs, Sigma speaker cables
Shunyata Sigma HC (2), Sigma Analog, Sigma Digital, Z Anaconda (3) power cables
Mapleshade Samson V.3 four shelf solid maple rack, Micropoint brass footers
Three 20 amp circuits. -
Usually an electrical engineer.At this point, a self-proclaimed expert needs to step-in and assure you guys that what you are hearing is impossible. In fact, it is because you are delusional that you think you hear a difference..
afterburnt wrote: »They didn't speak a word of English, they were from South Carolina.
Village Idiot of Club Polk -
At this point, a self-proclaimed expert needs to step-in and assure you guys that what you are hearing is impossible. In fact, it is because you are delusional that you think you hear a difference.
Zltful, thanks for the CAT5/CAT6 info. When I read about audiophile Ethernet cables I would wonder if just going to CAT6 or CAT7 would improve the sound.
Oh I am definitely delusional. At least my wife says so each time I drag her to look at the Magico Q5s.
"Some people find it easier to be conceited rather than correct."
"Unwad those panties and have a good time man. We're all here to help each other, no matter how it might appear." DSkip -
I think most electrical engineers who have some knowledge of signal theory understand that a signal is going to be changed by passing through a conductor and that the change may or may not be audible.
There is actually an audiophile community within the Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers whose members have published many papers relating to stereophonic performance and perception.
Proud and loyal citizen of the Digital Domain and Solid State Country! -
As in this?I read someone say that once they invested significantly in improving the power aspect, differences in cabling became less apparent.
...or amplifier power?afterburnt wrote: »They didn't speak a word of English, they were from South Carolina.
Village Idiot of Club Polk -
Dk, as far as your original statement of not hearing differences in cables, I read someone say that once they invested significantly in improving the power aspect, differences in cabling became less apparent. This could have been what you were experiencing.
Yes, I made the same observation and comment. I also wondered in this thread if the differences in USB cables that others so easily hear is due to them using (electrically) noisy computers.
Yes, as in power quality treatment. In my case, in my two channel system, I have:
1. A PS Audio P10 ac regenerator for source components and preamplifiers.
2. Three dedicated 20 amp power circuits, each terminated with a passive power conditioner.
3. Low noise power cables.
4. Audio grade fuses.
Proud and loyal citizen of the Digital Domain and Solid State Country! -
Great stuff and thanks for putting up with me DK. Seems like, once again, it is the sum of the parts, from outlet to speaker.
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Oh I am definitely delusional. At least my wife says so each time I drag her to look at the Magico Q5s.
Take her to see the new Q7 at $230,000, and she will love the Q5.
Lumin X1 file player, Westminster Labs interconnect cable
Sony XA-5400ES SACD; Pass XP-22 pre; X600.5 amps
Magico S5 MKII Mcast Rose speakers; SPOD spikes
Shunyata Triton v3/Typhon QR on source, Denali 2000 (2) on amps
Shunyata Sigma XLR analog ICs, Sigma speaker cables
Shunyata Sigma HC (2), Sigma Analog, Sigma Digital, Z Anaconda (3) power cables
Mapleshade Samson V.3 four shelf solid maple rack, Micropoint brass footers
Three 20 amp circuits. -
Note page 3 especially, addressing the interface/cable relationship with jitter:
http://www.stereophile.com/reference/1093jitter/index.htmlSource: Bluesound Node 2i - Preamp/DAC: Benchmark DAC2 DX - Amp: Parasound Halo A21 - Speakers: MartinLogan Motion 60XTi - Shop Rig: Yamaha A-S501 Integrated - Shop Spkrs: Elac Debut 2.0 B5.2 -
Take her to see the new Q7 at $230,000, and she will love the Q5.
That's almost our build budget...pretty sure she would divorce me at that point. Although, the Q7s do come in some nice crates I could live in...
"Some people find it easier to be conceited rather than correct."
"Unwad those panties and have a good time man. We're all here to help each other, no matter how it might appear." DSkip -
Live in ?? Dude....more like "buried" in.HT SYSTEM-
Sony 850c 4k
Pioneer elite vhx 21
Sony 4k BRP
SVS SB-2000
Polk Sig. 20's
Polk FX500 surrounds
Cables-
Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable
Kitchen
Sonos zp90
Grant Fidelity tube dac
B&k 1420
lsi 9's -
Note page 3 especially, addressing the interface/cable relationship with jitter:
http://www.stereophile.com/reference/1093jitter/index.html
That's why I'm getting a separate word clock for my next DAC.
Proud and loyal citizen of the Digital Domain and Solid State Country! -
In regards to my Yamaha Aventage:There's also a DAC on Pure Ground circuitry and Ultra Low Jitter PLL circuitry to help optimise sound imaging.
Anybody know what PLL is? Is this something that is real world beneficial or just marketing?
EDIT: I just found this: http://truecircuits.com/images/pdfs/maneatis96b.pdf but it might as well be in Japanese.afterburnt wrote: »They didn't speak a word of English, they were from South Carolina.
Village Idiot of Club Polk
