Would you buy new, slim, SDA speakers?

VR3 · February 2004

This is simple, this is a Poll, to see if you would buy a new style of SDA that is slim as the RT line, uses the SDA technology and sounds 60 feet wide, for a reasonable price (like the RT line). Would you buy this kind of speakers?

jmasterj · February 2004

I wish Matt would come out with a SDA line so bad, so bad that I considered bidding on the SDA-2's that were on ebay this week.
The only reason I didn't was because the speakers are too old the drivers are worn out... I just brought a second Carver TFM 35x, and a Carver C-2 Pre Amp just for music. A new SDA speaker would be a wonderful addition to this system. I haven't decided on a speaker yet. If a new SDA were available no question It would be the speaker I'd buy... He could use drivers from the LSi line in a SDA . But I don't think he could do it in a smaller box. Please Matt Hear Or Plea. and let us know it's comming so we don't spend the money on something else. I would gladly wait for a new SDA....

F1nut · February 2004

Originally posted by jmasterj
The only reason I didn't was because the speakers are too old the drivers are worn out...

Who told you that? Polk built the SDA's as high-end speakers with quality parts that should last 30 years or more. Solid case construction, rubber driver surrounds and with tweeters that keep on tweeting as long as you don't drive your amp into clipping. Besides all that, Polk still has parts for them. Believe me, there is nothing worn out about the SDA line of speakers.

RuSsMaN · February 2004

Yeah, what F1 said.

Sid, the 'width' of the SDA's, and the driver placement is crucial for the SDA effect. A slim tower just wouldn't work, period.

hoosier21 · February 2004

Slim line SDA's = using an electronic SDA device of some sort, I would have to see and hear them first.

Part of the "cool factor" about SDA speakers, is that the SDA effect is not generated by a chip on a circuit board. but rather by the delayed SDA signal, the SDA signal is delayed by placing the SDA drivers further away from your ears than the stereo drivers are. The SDA''s have to be "wide" in order to get the correct delay of SDA information.... **** read how SDA work yourself.

F1nut · February 2004

I want to add to my comments above that there are still plenty of speakers 40-50 years old and older that are still in service. Some of them will have had repairs done to them like replacing the foam surrounds, etc., but a great speaker will always be a great speaker no matter how old. There are WWII era speakers (drivers) that command staggering prices today.

disneyjoe7 · February 2004

Ok so here's the design idea, I accept cash.

Take the RT line mount drivers on a angle to angle thing like the FX line.

This should give you the width needed, good R&D thing to try.

Originally posted by RuSsMaN
Yeah, what F1 said.

Sid, the 'width' of the SDA's, and the driver placement is crucial for the SDA effect. A slim tower just wouldn't work, period.

RuSsMaN · February 2004

Still wouldn't work bud.

SDA is hard to understand, much less explain. I'll see if I can't PDF the white papers so you guys can begin to understand why they were done the way the they were.

Cheers,
Russ

Tour2ma · February 2004

How 'bout two pairs of "slim lines" and a roll of duct tape?

disneyjoe7 · February 2004

Originally posted by Tour2ma
How 'bout two pairs of "slim lines" and a roll of duct tape?

Ya how about that !!!!!!

I just my have 2 RTxxxi to "Duct Tape"

disneyjoe7 · February 2004

Russ,

Would love to understand what makes the SDA tick.

>>I'll see if I can't PDF the white papers so you guys can begin to understand why they were done the way the they were.<<

PolkWannabie · February 2004

Originally posted by RuSsMaN
Yeah, what F1 said.

Sid, the 'width' of the SDA's, and the driver placement is crucial for the SDA effect. A slim tower just wouldn't work, period.

SRT's ? Isn't the SDA effective in these ?

hoosier21 · February 2004

http://www.polkaudio.com/home/technology/sda.php?category=3&speaker=82

here is a start, not much detail, but the diagram at the bottom shows the crosstalk cancellation

hoosier21 · February 2004

Originally posted by PolkWannabie
SRT's ? Isn't the SDA effective in these ?

Don't know how effective it is, I will assume it is, but the problem with the SRT's SDA is that it comes from an electric box, and I would assume it "applies" or "adds" the SDA effect to any and all music that is play through it, like the Caver Sonic Holography.

The SDA speakers of yesterday will only widen the soundstage if the information is in the original recording.

HBombToo · February 2004

Originally posted by RuSsMaN
Still wouldn't work bud.

SDA is hard to understand, much less explain. I'll see if I can't PDF the white papers so you guys can begin to understand why they were done the way the they were.

Cheers,
Russ

I think I get the concept.

I would like to be included in all paper work you may have on sda.

PLEASE:D

Twin

PolkWannabie · February 2004

Originally posted by hoosier21
Don't know how effective it is, I will assume it is, but the problem with the SRT's SDA is that it comes from an electric box, and I would assume it "applies" or "adds" the SDA effect to any and all music that is play through it, like the Caver Sonic Holography.

The SDA speakers of yesterday will only widen the soundstage if the information is in the original recording.

The link you pointed at in your previous post is a direct link from the SRT page.

The SRT's have the same type of SDA & Stereo arrays that the SRS's have. The only real difference between the two that I am aware of is that the settings for the SRS's are fixed in the electronics inside the cabs as opposed to the SRT's where electronics are outside the cabs in a user controllable unit. The principle is the same.

From the SRT documentation ...

"The outboard Control Center brings the convenience of remote control and the ability to finely tune the SRT subwoofer and SDA soundstage functions"

http://www.polkaudio.com/home/technology/controlb.php

hoosier21 · February 2004

The SRS and other SDA speakers use a passive system to get the SDA effect, it is all in the speakers crossover and the SDA drivers are spaced away from the Stereo drivers to passively create a small delay. This "system" only works when the original recording has a wide soundstage recorded in it. It does not "create" it.

Now I am assuming here, as I have never used or heard the SRT system, I am sure it capable of great things, it's just the SDA part I have a reservation about, why, well the SRT's SDA system is an electronic ACTIVE system, to me it is like an old Yamaha receiver I have that has this exspander control, it goes from min. to max. and applies the "effect" to everything. The SRT magic box has something like that in it, it has a variable "effect" knob, that is a good idication to me that I can ADD as much SDA effect to the mix as I want, destroying the original recording. Takes all the fun out of it fot me.

PolkWannabie · February 2004

The crossovers are passive but the SDA effect is the product of the removal of interaural crosstalk and whether or not that is performed inside two speakers or inside a control box between the amplifier and the speakers or at the pre-amplification stage is irrelevant.

As long as we're assuming, I would assume the normal position is equivalent to the passive solution.

Do we not buy and use receivers and/or pre-amps because they have bass and treble controls or do we purposely not play with the bass and treble controls ?

Tour2ma · February 2004

Agree for the most part with hoosier...

As Stu was explaining to us at TX PFII, the SRS's relied on an acoustical array for their effect. Can see this in the design where the center points of the MW's are roughly the width of an average adult head apart (size of your melon may vary).

If you then look at the SRT array, clearly the MW's are not the same distance apart as they are in the SRS's so at minimum the "box" must control the delay timing for the SDA drivers. This delay is likely what you fine tune.

PW,
Having heard the SDA and SH effects, I assure you there are differences.

Using your "analogy", for many it would be the difference between keeping the tone controls set to flat and bypassing them altogether.

F1nut · February 2004

Tone controls? We don't need no stinkin' tone controls.

Having had a SRT demo I can say they sounded very good, but the demo was too short and I can't say that I was paying attention to the SDA effects all that much, although it was present. It is a well known fact that the Carver system does not sound as good as the SDA system, so it seems reasonable that the SRT's active system may not be as good either.

PolkWannabie · February 2004

LOL ... It does ?

The fact that some settable system might not sound as good to some listener as some non settable system is usually rooted in the ineptitude of the setter.

You can call the routing of some subset of signals to the opposite channel "passive" if you like but that's not what I'd call it. Furthermore the idea that a non settable array would accurately reproduce the differences in the conditions of a small club .vs. a concert hall .vs. a studio is highly debatable.

Some reading for those with an interest ... This is very long but worth the read imho.

http://www.ambiophonics.org/

Tour2ma · February 2004

The principles behind SDA and SH technologies are essentially the same, i.e., interaural crosstalk cancelation via the extraction, phase inversion and delay of L-R and R-L information, but their delivery is very different. Something even Bob Carver became convinced of when he paid Matt and Co. a visit to discuss patent issues (another good Stu story).

As said above the SDA time delay is accomplished via the physical arrangement of the drivers whereas SH electronically delays. But SH also uses the same drivers to deliver the cancellation info. In my mind it's this added duty that is why SH finishes a distant second to SDA. A driver's life is difficult enough in fulfilling its primary function without adding all this phase inverted information to its "do-list". I think being mindful of this SH extracts less difference info than SDA.

Yes, SH can be effective. But in the demo's I've heard the sweetspot is literally a few inches wide and outside of that range the effect is nil. Whereas SDA's can easily achieve complete jollies a couple headwidths wide and some effect at almost every spot between the speakers.

SRT??? Kinda a hybrid, but more towards SDA in design me thinks...

Tour2ma · February 2004

Originally posted by PolkWannabie
LOL ... It does ?

Furthermore the idea that a non settable array would accurately reproduce the differences in the conditions of a small club .vs. a concert hall .vs. a studio is highly debatable.

Well, yes, it does... For example, yours seems a bit thicker to me...

As for the hall effects and such, I think you're confusing SDA with the kind of ambience effects that Yamaha introduced many moons ago. Two distinctly different animals...

Yamaha's system (name is escaping me dammit) did not simply make the main speakers "disappear", but rather created reflection information based upon characteristic time delays of selcted venues around the world (really ingeneous stuff for its day).

SDA's "simply" turn a 60 deg soundstage (assuming listening position is third point in an equilateral triangle) into a 120 deg or more soundstage. This effect is great for Pink Floyd and other effects bands, and ranges down from there. Only annoying SDA material I've found is solo piano. Something not quite right about a 20' wide keyboard...

The link looks interesting...

hoosier21 · February 2004

Well passive it that there is no AC cord involved.

I would love to hear the SRT, maybe someday I will know if my reservations are just.

I think the variable SDA effect has the potential to be over used, like those who says screw the SP meter and setup disk and cranks the powered sub up well above where is should be.

Hey, it's just my opinion here, nothing was stated as fact.

PolkWannabie · February 2004

Tour2ma,

The differences between listening to Pink Floyd in SDA and a piano solo or other small group or club I think illustrates my point. With regards to the SRT's being a hybrid, I concur.

Hoosier21,

As far as abuse of the system goes, I agree, but then that's pretty much like anything else that can be abused and has already been mentioned the SDA effect for a solo piano for example is already an abuse of sorts if you will. What I guess I find interesting here is that you find settable controls for individual sound levels of different channels and/or sub woofer to be a good thing, but not settable controls for SDA effect.

hoosier21 · February 2004

actually I have been talking about 2 channel only, my powered sub reference was just trying to give an example.

What are you talking about with the solo piano Bruce (remember you said something about this at Russman's house), I mean all piono material or do you have one that sound funny, I only have a few "piano" cuts and I didn't get that.

SDA speakers work VERY VERY well on small club settings, solo performances, as well as the Pink Floyd tricks.

PW, hunt down a local SDA owner and get a good demo.

Damn I got yard work to do

Tour2ma · February 2004

PW,
Sorta agree... and that ain't bad for us. But a club stage is going to be wider than your average 2 ch speaker split.

Completely agree that if an artificial effect is applied to all situations, at least one will arise where it is less satisfying than if it was not present. On the whole I think my SDA SRS's succeed in a very high percentage of the musical situations in which I put them. It's why they are my everyday speakers.

As for SDA and me and solo piano, or I should say some solo piano.... Several of my Horowitz studio recordings are there. However, live performances, e.g., "... in Moscow", are fine and concertos are also quite good, e.g., Vlad's Golden Jubilee performance of Rachmaninoff's #3 (a flat out, great performance, just glorious).

So when it's solo piano time, I just pull the Maggies out front and center.

BTW, I edited a smilie into an earlier post that I'd neglected to insert earlier...

Russ,
Your reply popped in while I was writing this, but I think your question was accidently answered as I rambled in my post to PW...

Yard work???

RuSsMaN · February 2004

SDA and effect (affect?) probably shouldn't be used together.

It doesn't process or change the soundfield, it simply (tries to) cancel intranural crosstalk. It makes stereo sound more like, well stereo. The seperation between channels is more noticeable, and without the crosstalk (or at least reduced crosstalk) between channels, the soundstage usually becomes wider, and deeper.

SDA is simply trying to keep the information from the left speaker, heard on the left ear only, and vice-versa. An attempt at 'true stereo'. If you want to try to experiment with crosstalk cancellation on your own, get a large piece of cardboard, and hold it straight out in front of you, running right down the center of your face.

The amount of 'effect' (what's another word to use?), will be dependent on the original recording, and how it was mixed, and how much it has been compressed.

If you have a recording that where a piano sounds 20ft wide, I'd say it was poorly recorded / mic'd to begin with.

SDA speakers, when setup properly, in a good room, can be a near life-altering experience for first timers. If you are doubtful, or skeptical (I once was) - you simply need to hear it.

Cheers,
Russ

disneyjoe7 · February 2004

Originally posted by hoosier21
actually I have been talking about 2 channel only, my powered sub reference was just trying to give an example.

What are you talking about with the solo piano Bruce (remember you said something about this at Russman's house), I mean all piono material or do you have one that sound funny, I only have a few "piano" cuts and I didn't get that.

SDA speakers work VERY VERY well on small club settings, solo performances, as well as the Pink Floyd tricks.

PW, hunt down a local SDA owner and get a good demo.

Damn I got yard work to do

Ok so do you own SDA's?

And how far from Orlando are you?

Tour2ma · February 2004

Russ,

At least three minor points of disagreement that would best be thrashed out over a few cold ones in the cave with plenty of demo material...

Does Luther own SDA's?

disneyjoe7 · February 2004

Originally posted by Tour2ma
Russ,

At least three minor points of disagreement that would best be thrashed out over a few cold ones in the cave with plenty of demo material...

Does Luther own SDA's?

I at lease think SE Taxas is too far to drive, flights are up there:(

Would you buy new, slim, SDA speakers?

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