Paradigm Signature S2 anyone?

Lietuvis91

I'm trying to take a "less is more" approach with my next build. And by "less" I don't mean less money, just less clutter.

I'm currently selling off my polk monitors (m70 & m60) and some additional gear that I am currently not using and plan to move up to a speaker a few notches above the lsi/lsim series. I have found that for any of the rooms of the house that I live in, bookshelves seem to produce the best coverage/detail, so I'm trying to make a list of ones to look out for. So far in my search the Paradigm Signature S1 and S2 keep popping up as a good option, and I was wondering if anyone has any experience with them.

Part of what I would like to achieve is to be able to drive the set of speakers with the Outlaw 975 pre and my NAD 995 amp (5x100w). One concern I have is that the power from that NAD will be "adequate" but not quiet enough to make the speaker shine like it should. That definitely seemed to be the case for my LSi9s with this amp. I'd say it was BARELY "adequate" as music was just a bit too sloppy, the amp just didn't have good control of those drivers.

If the s2s turns out to be too much speaker for that amp, I can go 2 ways, pick a better matching speaker, or upgrade the amp. At this point, I'd rather explore option 1, but I'm not married to it.

What say ye?!

Lietuvis91

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maandjojo

S2 speakers are going to be hard to beat. Had a pair and sold them and a few other items to get the tributes. a hundred watts just won't do it but with 5 channels you can use the front and rear channels to bi amp and you can have best of both worlds. Good luck.

Joe

Lietuvis91

Thanks much maandjojo! I'm glad you addressed amp power. I had a feeling this amp was probably going to fall short. Did you have a center channel with your signature s2? If you did, how did you like it? Seems I hear nothing but good things about those S2 bookshelves.

Last night I also talked to John (I think) at Salk. I was inquiring about their 'Silk" bookies because they are also about the same price ($3500/pair). His view was the same. The amp really isn't going to give the speakers the headroom they should have.

It seems everything in this price range will basically need more power. Which means I should probably save up for something like a Parasound a51, and also means this project will take longer than I thought.

Almost makes sense to sell all my gear so i can scrape up the money! lol!

So at this point I have two contenders on my list:

Paradigm Signature s2
Salk - Silk Monitors

Both speakers seem to get no less than rave reviews. Somehow I'll have to arrange to hear them.

maandjojo

I've got the c1 center, it does a real nice job, would prefer c3 but too much money.

Lietuvis91

The c1 doesn't even look to be available anymore, so I guess my only choice is the c3 which definitely looks to be a REALLY nice speaker. I'm excited!

Sold my pioneer elite vsx52 yesterday so the budget is getting bigger, but damn, I'm still a good ways off, lol!

Hopefully I can score some used S2s, but they don't seem to come up on the used market often... I'll keep my eyes open though. If i can score some S2s, I'm thinking I can run them off my parasound hca 1000a. That should sound pretty good, cuz that amp is 125w x 2, which is close to the rated max input power for the s2 (140w).

tonyb

Lietuvis91 wrote: »

That should sound pretty good, cuz that amp is 125w x 2, which is close to the rated max input power for the s2 (140w).

The rated max input power of the speaker ?? C'mon man, you've been around long enough to know those numbers mean diddly squat.

Lietuvis91

tonyb wrote: »

Lietuvis91 wrote: »

That should sound pretty good, cuz that amp is 125w x 2, which is close to the rated max input power for the s2 (140w).

The rated max input power of the speaker ?? C'mon man, you've been around long enough to know those numbers mean diddly squat.

Lol! Let me qualify that statement, as I think I didn't come across right.

In the past, I have noticed that using an amp that is rated for the max range specified by the speaker manufacturer typically resulted in the best sound quality. The lsi9 is rated 20-200w and I personally feel that at 200w it sounds like it should. Not to say more wouldn't be better, but from a cost benefit perspective i think 200w is the point where you're getting to hear most of what the lsi is designed to deliver.

And now looking a the S2 I see:

Suitable Amplifier Power Range 15 - 225 watts
Maximum Input Power 140 watts

Based on my logic, I'd ideally throw 225w at this speaker, but budget doesn't allow for a new amp AND speakers, and the max power spec being 140w (whatever that means) makes me think that 125w might be sufficient power to have this speaker performing "close" to optimum.

If that absolutely makes no sense, feel free to shoot me down. I'm all ears.

Lietuvis91

Guy is coming to buy my last set of Monitors, which were my favorite out of this series, the M60s. I think I might cry... I really enjoyed having these.

But it will make way and money for the next setup, so I guess it's for the better.

mantis

I got tons of experience with Paradigm all models including the entire S line. I will go on record to say they are the worse speakers in every single price point. I find them to be extremely good looking speakers and I think many get lost in the eye candy. Can't blame them as if you look at an extremely beautiful women , it's hard to find her flaws.

So with that being said, Paradigm IMO are way over priced. I have tried my hardest to really like them as when I started working with them years and years ago, I was absolutely attracted to them. They look so damn good , they have a way with the curves and lines that can drive a man crazy. But once you peel back the onion, you get teary eyed and know you make a mistake.

mantis

In my rant I didn't talk about the S2's directly. Allow me to comment.

The S2's like the rest of the S line are beautiful speakers and IMO beauty is absolutely skin deep here.
I find them to sound off like something is missing in the sound. Like the mid range is there but not warm and pleasing.
The High end is squeeky and very annoying. It doesn't come off as musical to me. It's like they are crossed over incorrectly.
The Low end sucks , it's there but flat and lifeless. nothing never to get excited about at all.

I don't listen to speakers as a Audiophile or music lover but as a Musician looking for realism. There are many speakers on the market that capture and artist work well and the S2's are not one of them

Remember one thing in my words. Every man has his place as every women has a place by that man. I'm sure there is a man out there that is willing to except the S2's are his lady friend, I'm just not that man.

Lietuvis91

Thanks for your input Dan. You've guided me on several other questions where your input was spot on and have taught me so much over the time I have been on this board, that I know I'd be a fool not to give your input very considerable weight.

So let's say this is the gear you have to work with and you were trying to assemble a very impressive surround sound setup (with a small footprint, in ceiling not being an option), for 50/50 use that would be considerably better than an lsi setup. Say in the $4-5k range for the front 3:

Pre-
Outlaw 975 (which I personally think is fantastic, but I don't know any better than the avrs I owned previously)
or
Marantz 7002 avr

Amp-
NAD T955 (5x100)
Parasound HCA 1000a (2x125)
Parasound HCA 2200a (2x200)

Or should I just sell all of this gear and invest in a more powerful 5x200 amp for the purposes of driving a high end speaker?

If you don't think I need to spend that much to get sound head and shoulders above the lsi's, I'm all ears bud!

Lietuvis91

And just for some background:

I am quiet fond of my current 2ch lsi setup, which I will keep some variation of in my room regardless of what happens in the living room:

975 Outlaw pre + HCA 2200a + LSi9s

I think, for the money, this is a pretty impressive combo, especially for music purposes.

Because Ive gotten a taste of some really nice sound with LSI's, I am now wanting to step up a good bit for my next living room build.

Hope that makes sense.

mantis

the Original LSI speakers where very nice but lacked in many ways. I owned them and use to sit there thinking " There's gotta be more then this" all the time. Yes I did like them but I moved on for many reasons. I went Dynaudio which was one of my choices that I actually took the LSI's over back in the day and realized I make a mistake.

To better the LSi's for a 50/50 system isn't hard at all. There are tons of speakers around the same price and slightly more that outclass them in so many ways.
I had a pair of LSI9's in my shop years ago and everything beat them in all kinds of ways which honestly to me was slighty depressing but a justification to how I felt when I personally owned them.
As much as I find fault in the paradigm line , they are a better sounding speaker then the LSI's you currently have. But when it comes to dollar for dollar they are not.
Totem is a wonderful line that can be looked at as they are one of the most impressive speaker lines out there for the money.
Now depending on your musical tastes and Theater life like needs , Klipsch Reference series is something to really take a look at. They make some unbelievable sounding speakers that for theater they excel at and for music they thrill. Not so much for Jazz and Classical as I find them to be slightly over the top in some ways for this style of music but they hold their own especially since they do so well for theater.
Definitive Technology Mythos and even the BP line are some series contenders for what you are looking for. They excel at both music and movies about equal.
Honestly I still own a full Mythos system and everything I have access to I have not found a reason to replace them. For the money I feel they are kings and have no equal for a 50/50 system. That's how I use my system.
I have run NAD and Pioneer Elite on them and both systems are very impressive.

Now there comes a time in every man's life that needs to fully experience B&W speakers. Many will hate on them for whatever their reasons are and cool everyone has personal tastes that gotta be met BUT
I don't think there is another speaker line out there that can express sound as accurately as B&W can in most cases. For your budget the CM line would be a very worth while system to look into with a very good back end meaning amp and pre.
The New CM10's are damn nice and really a remarkable speaker for both music and movies. These I have considered myself many times and they are still on the list IF and WHEN I decide to move into something different. The Problem for me is I don't find any faults in my Mythos series speakers which is why I still have them. By now I would be 2 speaker lines away from them but I have decided that these do everything I want them to do and I don't see a reason. Yeah I get tempted , who doesn't just like when you see a beautiful women and think of all the possibilities but when you go home you realize you have everything you need.

As far as your gear man , thats hard for me to say as I really have a limited and narrow focus on what I consider is great for both music and movie systems. I remove all the others out as I find no benefits of going with this brand or that when I have found tested and been proved that this equipment is where it's at. I;m no fan of Outlaw as I have heard their stuff and found them to be lacking. For the money yeah nice but just not my cup of tea.
NAD both Pre and Amp is probably the best choice in todays market for that you are trying to achieve. the T series is fantastic but if you can afford Master Reference then I strongly suggest going that route. This way if you ever plan on getting into even higher end speakers , you are already set.
If you had a movie first system I would suggest an Integra Preamp with a NAD amp. This combo I have done many times and man does it work well together. Music your still good but forget outboard DAC's and such as Integra A to D's all analog incoming signals and reprocesses them anyway yielding no benefits to external DAC's.
BUT they do have very good internal DAC's so music can be achieved very well with a DHC80.3 preamp which IMO is probably the best all around preamp on the market right now. Yes the .6 models are out but unless your going Atmos , no reason to buy.
Now if you are considering Atmos , then look back at the Definitive Technology line in the BP8060's as they have a add on Atmos speaker that attaches to the top of the speaker by removing the Wood top plate and replacing it with a Atmos speaker. Very cool and a very good speaker line that will destroy the LSI's for all things sound. They don't even cost more if anything they maybe a sideways upgrade.
I really hope the BP8080 gets a Atmos upgrade as they are truly some badass speakers. They are so good I almost went with them over my Mythos when they came out. I still to this day think about them from time to time as they are amazingly impressive. You should hear a full 7.2 system with the BP8080's WOW man what a system. Music is incredible as well as one of the most impressive dollar for dollar theater experiences money can buy.
You don't even need to go high end separates to get them to sing. You can simply get a top of the line Pioneer Elite SC and you will have a serious sounding system. Most also will say going separates is always a better choice and in many ways they are very right BUT in most rooms and volume levels , the Elite can't be beat. Hell I have both NAD and Elite and Honestly for the money the Elite outperforms the NAD. If both being equal the NAD is slightly better for sheer dynamics and just a tad bit clearer in some things but when you factor in cost at this level , you really have to spend a lot more to get a little. I also factor in power cords and Interconnects as for Separates you have to have them, then the cost even looks worse and the value goes down even more.

mantis

tonyb wrote: »

Lietuvis91 wrote: »

That should sound pretty good, cuz that amp is 125w x 2, which is close to the rated max input power for the s2 (140w).

The rated max input power of the speaker ?? C'mon man, you've been around long enough to know those numbers mean diddly squat.

It's funny that still comes up as I never even check that rating when I'm designing a system.

deronb1

B&W gets a lot of grief here, but I have gone through a lot of bookies, trying to supplant my cdm 1nt and cdm cnt front set up. Yes they can be forward, but never tizzy or sstraining and with well recorded material, some of the best mids i have ever heard.

tonyb

The CDM-NT series to me is the sweet spot in their line up....to my ears anyway.

deronb1

Most reviews i have read put them solidly between the 700 and 800 series. I think its a fair assessment. I thoroughly enjoyed demoing the PM1s, but they are a bit steep still.

maandjojo

By the time you have finished with this post I am sure you will have no idea what speaker you want. I have read these comments and can agree with some and disagree with others. Unfortunately some don't seem to be on point much. My take was what are thoughts were about the S2 speakers and the power needed. If you are not going through a good 200 to 250 watts at them you will not do them justice. Most folks will tell you to put your ears on them, that being said, its a lot easier said then done. There are two things that can't be duplicated, your room and your ears. Be patient , and do your due diligence.

danz1906

mantis wrote: »

I got tons of experience with Paradigm all models including the entire S line. I will go on record to say they are the worse speakers in every single price point. I find them to be extremely good looking speakers and I think many get lost in the eye candy. Can't blame them as if you look at an extremely beautiful women , it's hard to find her flaws.

So with that being said, Paradigm IMO are way over priced. I have tried my hardest to really like them as when I started working with them years and years ago, I was absolutely attracted to them. They look so damn good , they have a way with the curves and lines that can drive a man crazy. But once you peel back the onion, you get teary eyed and know you make a mistake.

Dan,

Are Familiar with the Dynaudio Focus 380 speakers?
If so, what do you think of them?

Thanks
Danz

Lietuvis91

Dan,

This is superbly great guidance. Thanks a million! I’m glad you mentioned the Intergra pre. I had already begun to think about getting 4k ready equipment, so the Integra 80.6 should fit that bill as a good match for the NAD amp I already have. Putting it on my shortlist.

mantis wrote: »

Now there comes a time in every man's life that needs to fully experience B&W speakers.

lol! This is actually almost the exact thought I had when I started the revamping process. I told myself I was at that point in my audiophile journey where I am ready to step up to a B&W quality speaker.
I looked at your speaker suggestions, and staying in line with my “less is more” theme this are some of the options I’m coming up with:

B&W:
I have no need for a speaker the size of CM10, as in the room I’m working with it would be a complete waste. But a system built around CM1 S2 looks to be a great option.

8Ω / Sensitivity 84 db / Recommended amplifier power 30W - 100W
H (11 in) W (6.5 in) D (10.2 in) / 14.7 lb
Frequency response 50Hz - 28kHz ±3dB

Really like this on paper @$1,099.98/pair with the CM Centre S2 center $700. Small footprint, high quality, should run very well on my NAD t995.

Dynaudio:
Again, on paper, I’m really liking the Excel x14 model with the x24 center. Specs for the bookshelves seem to be nearly identical to the B&W CM1

8ohm / Sensitivity 85 dB / IEC Power Handling >150 W
Frequency Response 50 Hz–23 kHz (± 3 dB)
Dimensions (W x H x D) 6.7 x 11.2 x 10"

$1500/pair for the x14 with the x24 center going for $1000. This is more expensive, but might be worth it. Apparently the detail from these speakers is phenomenal for everything music and movies. These will require a trip to texas to get an ear on.

Def tech mythos:
BP8080 and BP8060 are too darn big. I’ll be looking at Mythos 7/6/Gemm which should be close to the footprint I want and easy enough to power for my current gear. Hopefully I can get a good sense for how they compare to the bw cm1.

Paradigm S2 will remain on my list, just need to get an ear on them at a local Hifi shop. I will let my ears be the judge as to how I like them relative to the B&W and Dynaudio options already on my list.

Klipsch – I’ll give these another listen at BB, but I suspect that Dynaudio Excite series and the B&Ws will be more to my liking since I do a lot of easy listening and really do enjoy the smooth and easy flow of the lsi9s.

Totem – nowhere I know of to listen to these within a reasonable traveling distance, so these really can’t be in the running, unfortunately.

I'll go listen to some of these in the next couple of days. Mission "Big sound, small footprint" is underway!

Lietuvis91

maandjojo wrote: »

By the time you have finished with this post I am sure you will have no idea what speaker you want. I have read these comments and can agree with some and disagree with others. Unfortunately some don't seem to be on point much. My take was what are thoughts were about the S2 speakers and the power needed. If you are not going through a good 200 to 250 watts at them you will not do them justice. Most folks will tell you to put your ears on them, that being said, its a lot easier said then done. There are two things that can't be duplicated, your room and your ears. Be patient , and do your due diligence.

I agree with you 100%. The initial purpose of this thread was to see where my gear stood in terms of being able to run the signature series, and I think we all agree that I don't really have enough amp to really do them justice. I also trust Dan's judgment enough to consider his recommendation seriously, so I therefore have expanded my search with the addition of some new options which might work better with my current goals/gear/budget.

Believe me, if I hear those S2s and love them over the other stuff on this list, I'm literally going to sell all my gear to fund their purchase and the required infrastructure. Im just hoping Dan is right, and the cheaper options will be satisfactory to my taste.

Lietuvis91

I got back from the BB Magnolia store. I'm glad I went on this adventure because it definitely helped in identifying my preferences.

I listened to B&W 684, CM10, CM1, and the CM series center.
Then the Def Tech sts towers with their center.
And finished with Martin Logan Motion 40 with their matching center.

The gear used was a peachtree for 2ch and Marantz 7009 avr for multichannel movies.

I first heard the CM1 on the peachtree. This thing was impressive. Small speaker with big/clear/articulate sound. Just what I'm looking for. Sounded good at low levels and was no slouch turned up. Pretty impressive.

The CM10s sounded sharp, but kind of edgy or thin at high volumes. They appeared to be a very revealing speaker, but I didn't find it pleasing to listen to. In fact when we switched to the 684 floorstander, I kind of felt a relief and liked that sound better. It just seem cleaner, less rattled, though not quiet as open or detailed as the CM10. The matching center CM1 S2 didn't impress at all. The sound seemed crisp but jagged, dialog didn't have any better clarity than my lsic (or at least not considerably better)

With the def tech sts towers my ears said "Hell no" in the first 5 seconds. I found the highs ear piercing. We tried movies and 2 ch, and I can see where the speaker was more dynamic than the CM10, but it all seemed exaggerated, didn't seem real/natural. I felt the sound was colored by the speaker and that is just not what I'm looking for. I prefer a much more natural sound.

Then I asked to hear the martin logan bookshelves with the matching center. The center impressed me. The sound was darker, kind of like the lsic, but smoother, less jagged and more coherent to my ears compared to the CM series center. I thought to myself "I could listen to this all day". This led me to ask for a demo of the motion 40 floor standers. These caught me off guard. I really got sucked into the music (same music that was played on the other speakers). The music seemed to be less jagged and seemed to flow much better. I even got a goose bump or two during that demo. The highs were crisp and smooth, while the lows dug deep, but didn't seem exaggerated. The overall sound was the most pleasant and soothing out of this group.

This made me wonder if years of listening to my LSi9s have trained/diverted my listening preference towards the smoother/darker sound. Who knows...

In the end, I felt that nothing I heard today outclassed my lsi setup by a large enough margin that would make me eager to open my wallet. That, is something I expected least of all!

Now I am super pumped to hear the Paradigm Signature and Dynaudio Excite speakers. Hopefully one of them delivers the smoothness, openness and clarity, that will make me gitty enought to open my wallet.

I will go back to listen to the CM1(which I liked a lot) and CM10s again. Maybe take a drive to a different magnolia store as well as bring my own set of CDs. The Cm1 remains a contender, while I have no intentions of buying the CM10, it's just too freakin big. I just have a hard time believing that what I heard is really all that this speaker is capable of. The openness and clarity seemed to be there, but the sound seemed dissected/chopped up and just not very harmonious.