New sub......fronts large or small?

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  • mrloren
    mrloren Posts: 2,454
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    I found my perfect match with my system was to set RTi8 to 60hz, CSi5 to 70hz TC80 and RC80 to 80hz. perfect for my family room
    When I was a kid my parents told me to turn it down. Now I'm an adult and my kids tell me to turn it down.
    Family Room:LG QNED80 75", Onkyo RZ50 Emotiva XPA3 GEN3 Oppo BDP-93,Sony UBP-X800BM. Main: Polk LsiM 705Center: Polk LSiM 704CFront High/Rear High In-Ceiling Polk 80F/X RT Surrounds: Polk S15 Sub: HSU VTF3-MK5
    Bed Room; Marantz SR5010, BDP-S270Main: Polk Signature S20Center: Polk Signature S35Rear: Polk R15 Sub: SVS SB2000
    Working Warehouse; Yamaha A-S301, Sony DVP-NS3100ES for disc Plok TSX550T SVS PB2000 Mini tower PC with 400GB of music
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  • Lietuvis91
    Lietuvis91 Posts: 908
    edited December 2014
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    I just sold my m70s, and put my m60s back to front duty, right where they started. Since i was hooking everything back up and resetting the settings all over again, I thought i would (again) try the fronts set to large with the sub crossed at 80hz, since so many of you seem to like the results. I kept flipping the fronts back and forth, small to large, and yes, you get more low frequency coverage with large + sub combo, but YUCK! The bass isn't even close to clean, or musical. It's more like a huuuuummmmm AND a bluuurrrr AND there's lots of it. I adjusted the volume on the sub to have the right amount of base, but the overall sound was still dirty and busy, not even close to clean. Switched the fronts back to small, same 80hz xover. It's just beautiful! The sub SINGS! The base/mids are tight and punchy. All the detail across the entire frequency range is there for your enjoyment. Each speaker is singing along, doing what each does best. But the best part is the combo makes it seem like really the room is harmoniously singing! If you closed your eyes you couldn't point to the sub.

    Maybe it's my room (13x18)...
    Or my ears...
    Or this particular combo of the M60 + Emotiva 12 in sub...

    But this same setup with the m70s never sounded this good. I could never get the m70s blended in where the sound was harmonious and clean like this. The m70s set to large with the sub on was even more awful. But it did shake the walls, lol!

    Anyway, I'm enjoying the M60s in this setup much more. Just sounds "right". Thought I'd share my experience.
    Living Room 7.1 HT Rig:

    M70 | CS2 | M60 | Atrium5 - Surr. | SUB - Emotiva ULTRA12 + Tara Labs sub cable | Pioneer Elite VSX-52 | Parasound HCAs 1000A | Sony BDP-S790 | Belkin PureAV PF60 | MIT Exp2 Wires

    Bedroom 5.0 HT Rig (Music/Movies/Gaming) :

    LSi9 | LsiC | Lsi/fx | Marantz SR7002 | NAD T955 | Sony BDP-S360 | Belkin PureAV PF30 | AQ Blue Racer II ICs & AQ Type 4 wires | PS3
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  • mrloren
    mrloren Posts: 2,454
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    try taking you front down to 60hz, I found that to be the sweet spot on my RTi8
    When I was a kid my parents told me to turn it down. Now I'm an adult and my kids tell me to turn it down.
    Family Room:LG QNED80 75", Onkyo RZ50 Emotiva XPA3 GEN3 Oppo BDP-93,Sony UBP-X800BM. Main: Polk LsiM 705Center: Polk LSiM 704CFront High/Rear High In-Ceiling Polk 80F/X RT Surrounds: Polk S15 Sub: HSU VTF3-MK5
    Bed Room; Marantz SR5010, BDP-S270Main: Polk Signature S20Center: Polk Signature S35Rear: Polk R15 Sub: SVS SB2000
    Working Warehouse; Yamaha A-S301, Sony DVP-NS3100ES for disc Plok TSX550T SVS PB2000 Mini tower PC with 400GB of music
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  • Lietuvis91
    Lietuvis91 Posts: 908
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    I'll give it a shot. i think that particular receiver goes from 100hz to 50hz so I'll try 50hz and see how it sounds.
    Living Room 7.1 HT Rig:

    M70 | CS2 | M60 | Atrium5 - Surr. | SUB - Emotiva ULTRA12 + Tara Labs sub cable | Pioneer Elite VSX-52 | Parasound HCAs 1000A | Sony BDP-S790 | Belkin PureAV PF60 | MIT Exp2 Wires

    Bedroom 5.0 HT Rig (Music/Movies/Gaming) :

    LSi9 | LsiC | Lsi/fx | Marantz SR7002 | NAD T955 | Sony BDP-S360 | Belkin PureAV PF30 | AQ Blue Racer II ICs & AQ Type 4 wires | PS3
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  • pearsall001
    pearsall001 Posts: 5,002
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    What you experienced by setting the fronts to Large & also running the sub is called "Double Bass" & will sound like mud. Glad to hear you got things ironed out & back to sounding great.
    "2 Channel & 11.2 HT "Two Channel:Magnepan LRSSchiit Audio Freya S - SS preConsonance Ref 50 - Tube preParasound HALO A21+ 2 channel ampBluesound NODE 2i streameriFi NEO iDSD DAC Oppo BDP-93KEF KC62 sub Home Theater:Full blown 11.2 set up.
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  • jflail2
    jflail2 Posts: 2,868
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    I have about 30 hours on this new sub now. I think there may be some break in effect at play, as it seems like the bass has noticeably improved depth. It just sounds better. I'm pondering running Audessey again, and then giving my settings another tweak.
    2007 Club Polk Football Pool Champ

    2010 Club Polk Fantasy Football Champ

    2011 Club Polk Football Pool Champ


    "It's like a koala bear crapped a rainbow in my brain!"
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  • Lietuvis91
    Lietuvis91 Posts: 908
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    mrloren wrote: »
    try taking you front down to 60hz, I found that to be the sweet spot on my RTi8

    So I tried this setup at 50hz, since the receiver goes from a minimum setting of 50 to 80 as the next setting. I asked my dad to be the judge, mostly because he is a blank slate who doesn't understand anything about audio systems. I asked him to listen for a difference as I made setting changes and which he liked better. I was a bit surprised at his response. The difference in sound between 80 and 50 hz crossover is very subtle on this particular system, but he did notice it. He said the sound was more detailed at what happened to be 80hz, the base hit harder and deeper and the voices sounded clearer/cleaner.

    My observation was exactly the same. So in this particular system, 80hz is where we will leave it. Either way, it was worth a try. ;-)
    Living Room 7.1 HT Rig:

    M70 | CS2 | M60 | Atrium5 - Surr. | SUB - Emotiva ULTRA12 + Tara Labs sub cable | Pioneer Elite VSX-52 | Parasound HCAs 1000A | Sony BDP-S790 | Belkin PureAV PF60 | MIT Exp2 Wires

    Bedroom 5.0 HT Rig (Music/Movies/Gaming) :

    LSi9 | LsiC | Lsi/fx | Marantz SR7002 | NAD T955 | Sony BDP-S360 | Belkin PureAV PF30 | AQ Blue Racer II ICs & AQ Type 4 wires | PS3
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  • mrloren
    mrloren Posts: 2,454
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    Cool, it takes time and no system and room is the same. my RTi'8s hit the sweet spot @ 60hz with my HSU VTF-2. It takes time to dial it all in and have fun doing it. With a different sub my sweet spot maybe different never know till you try it.
    When I was a kid my parents told me to turn it down. Now I'm an adult and my kids tell me to turn it down.
    Family Room:LG QNED80 75", Onkyo RZ50 Emotiva XPA3 GEN3 Oppo BDP-93,Sony UBP-X800BM. Main: Polk LsiM 705Center: Polk LSiM 704CFront High/Rear High In-Ceiling Polk 80F/X RT Surrounds: Polk S15 Sub: HSU VTF3-MK5
    Bed Room; Marantz SR5010, BDP-S270Main: Polk Signature S20Center: Polk Signature S35Rear: Polk R15 Sub: SVS SB2000
    Working Warehouse; Yamaha A-S301, Sony DVP-NS3100ES for disc Plok TSX550T SVS PB2000 Mini tower PC with 400GB of music
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  • drumminman
    drumminman Posts: 3,396
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    pearsall001 wrote: »
    What you experienced by setting the fronts to Large & also running the sub is called "Double Bass" & will sound like mud.

    This doesn't make sense to me. If both the bass and sub are playing the low end why would it sound like mud since they're both playing the same material? The output of the lows may need to be adjusted volume wise so they're not too loud, but otherwise I've never experienced this.
    "Science is suppose to explain observations not dismiss them as impossible" - Norm on AA; 2.3TL's w/sonicaps/mills/jantzen inductors, Gimpod's boards, Lg Solen SDA inductors, RD-0198's, MW's dynamatted, Armaflex speaker gaskets, H-nuts, brass spikes, Cardas CCGR BP's, upgraded IC Cable, Black Hole Damping Sheet strips, interior of cabinets sealed with Loctite Power Grab, AI-1 interface with 1000VA A-L transformer
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  • pearsall001
    pearsall001 Posts: 5,002
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    Room boundaries overload & bass note's cancelling each other out. They're at war with each other trying to take over.
    "2 Channel & 11.2 HT "Two Channel:Magnepan LRSSchiit Audio Freya S - SS preConsonance Ref 50 - Tube preParasound HALO A21+ 2 channel ampBluesound NODE 2i streameriFi NEO iDSD DAC Oppo BDP-93KEF KC62 sub Home Theater:Full blown 11.2 set up.
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  • Mystery
    Mystery Posts: 2,546
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    pearsall001 wrote: »
    Room boundaries overload & bass note's cancelling each other out. They're at war with each other trying to take over.

    You may need to teach them to be at peace with each other. :wink:
    In my room, they work together.
    If that's the case, then multiple subwoofers always sound worse than single as they fight with each other.
    It's all about setting them up.

    Klipsch RB81, KG3.5, B&W DM602.5, Polk.
    Subwoofers: Klipsch RW10, Triad ProSub Bronze.
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  • pearsall001
    pearsall001 Posts: 5,002
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    Actually the more subs the easier the integration is. The speakers is where the problem lies...trying & struggling to produce bass they're not capable of reproducing. They just muck everything up.
    "2 Channel & 11.2 HT "Two Channel:Magnepan LRSSchiit Audio Freya S - SS preConsonance Ref 50 - Tube preParasound HALO A21+ 2 channel ampBluesound NODE 2i streameriFi NEO iDSD DAC Oppo BDP-93KEF KC62 sub Home Theater:Full blown 11.2 set up.
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  • tonyb
    tonyb Posts: 32,906
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    What Phil's referring to is the speed matching of the bass between a speaker and a subwoofer. A dedicated sub, a good one anyway, is going to be faster and more dynamic than what comes out of the speaker.

    That said, it doesn't mean the double bass option can't ever be a good thing. Depends on various things but as always let your own ears judge.
    HT SYSTEM-
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    Sony 4k BRP
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  • drumminman
    drumminman Posts: 3,396
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    pearsall001 wrote: »
    Room boundaries overload & bass note's cancelling each other out. They're at war with each other trying to take over.

    Sounds like more of a phase issue than speakers fighting each other. Good quality floor standers are designed to roll off below the frequencies they can't reproduce so running them full range and then having the sub dialed in to slightly overlap the lowest notes they can reproduce works in my set up in my room.

    Conventional wisdom is mostly that low frequencies are non directional so you don't need to place a sub in the same plane as the mains. However, I've always attempted to place a sub and mains in the same plane - it makes integration much easier. Also reduces the chance you'll experience anything like what you're describing above.
    "Science is suppose to explain observations not dismiss them as impossible" - Norm on AA; 2.3TL's w/sonicaps/mills/jantzen inductors, Gimpod's boards, Lg Solen SDA inductors, RD-0198's, MW's dynamatted, Armaflex speaker gaskets, H-nuts, brass spikes, Cardas CCGR BP's, upgraded IC Cable, Black Hole Damping Sheet strips, interior of cabinets sealed with Loctite Power Grab, AI-1 interface with 1000VA A-L transformer
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  • jeremymarcinko
    jeremymarcinko Posts: 3,785
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    Mystery wrote: »
    pearsall001 wrote: »
    Room boundaries overload & bass note's cancelling each other out. They're at war with each other trying to take over.

    You may need to teach them to be at peace with each other. :wink:
    In my room, they work together.
    If that's the case, then multiple subwoofers always sound worse than single as they fight with each other.
    It's all about setting them up.

    I have to agree with mystery on this. Yes hz's can get canceled out, but don't have too. Placement, phase, and distance all plays apart. I have my avr crossover at 80z but also use double bass(ypao default). The sub integration is transparent and adds no "mud." With double bass the sub is to support the mains not overpower them. My acoustically dead room definitely benefits from double bass even with the rti12's. You have to use a little common sense, if your mains aren't capable of producing the low notes than obviously don't use double bass. As with the case of the rti12's they won't do much below 40hz or so, but it certainly doesn't make any kind of distortions trying. The lfe channel for movies is still only being sent to the sub, therefore there isn't anything wrong with asking a "full-range" speaker worth is salt to do its job.
    Oh, Listen here mister. We got no way of understandin' this world. But we got as much sense of this bird flyin in the sky. Now there is a lot that bird don't know, but it don't change the fact that the world is happening to him all the same. What I am tryin to say is, is that the course of your life, well its changing, and you don't even see it- Forest Bondurant
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  • gce
    gce Posts: 2,158
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    jeremymarcinko wrote: »
    I have my avr crossover at 80z but also use double bass


    If I'm not mistaking you cannot set a crossover on your speakers and use double bass (extra bass for Yamahas). You can only set crossovers when you set your speakers to small. You can only use double or extra bass when speakers are set to large.

    I've always had better luck setting speakers to small and letting the sub do all the heavy lifting.

    Anaheim Hills CA,
    HT 5.1: Anthem MRX 720 / BDP-Denon DBT1713UD / Polkaudio LSiM703 / W4S mAmp's / Polkaudio LSiM706c / Polkaudio LSiM702F/X's / SVS PC12-NSD / Panasonic TC P55VT30

    2 Channel: Rogue RP-5 / WireWorld Electra power cord / Marantz TT-15S1/ Ortofon - Quintet Black MC / Marantz NA8005 DAC / W4S mAmp's / Synology DS 216+ll-4TB / Polkaudio LSiM703
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  • jeremymarcinko
    jeremymarcinko Posts: 3,785
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    gce wrote: »
    jeremymarcinko wrote: »
    I have my avr crossover at 80z but also use double bass


    If I'm not mistaking you cannot set a crossover on your speakers and use double bass (extra bass for Yamahas). You can only set crossovers when you set your speakers to small. You can only use double or extra bass when speakers are set to large.

    I've always had better luck setting speakers to small and letting the sub do all the heavy lifting.
    You are mistaken. My speakers are set to large, and the crossover is set at 80hz. Double bass with my Yamaha means that the sub will also receive the crossed over signal from the discrete channels. If set to small then the speakers will not receive the crossed over signal.

    Oh, Listen here mister. We got no way of understandin' this world. But we got as much sense of this bird flyin in the sky. Now there is a lot that bird don't know, but it don't change the fact that the world is happening to him all the same. What I am tryin to say is, is that the course of your life, well its changing, and you don't even see it- Forest Bondurant
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  • gce
    gce Posts: 2,158
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    I guess the RXA810 is different then the 1010 then.

    gma99shz3de4.jpg
    Anaheim Hills CA,
    HT 5.1: Anthem MRX 720 / BDP-Denon DBT1713UD / Polkaudio LSiM703 / W4S mAmp's / Polkaudio LSiM706c / Polkaudio LSiM702F/X's / SVS PC12-NSD / Panasonic TC P55VT30

    2 Channel: Rogue RP-5 / WireWorld Electra power cord / Marantz TT-15S1/ Ortofon - Quintet Black MC / Marantz NA8005 DAC / W4S mAmp's / Synology DS 216+ll-4TB / Polkaudio LSiM703
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  • Mystery
    Mystery Posts: 2,546
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    In my Marantz, bass options were Both and Mix.
    Both means front speakers and sub are getting bass signals and Mix means only fronts are getting full range while sub only gets LFE out so no output in stereo music as there is no lfe.
    Sub gets LFE in either mode.
    But different receiver has different settings.

    Klipsch RB81, KG3.5, B&W DM602.5, Polk.
    Subwoofers: Klipsch RW10, Triad ProSub Bronze.
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  • jeremymarcinko
    jeremymarcinko Posts: 3,785
    edited December 2014
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    My manual says the same thing, but it isn't entirely correct. Yes the crossover does set the lower limit when speakers are set to small, but in addition, it sets the upper limit for the subwoofer (not LFE) when speakers are set to large and extra bass on. Try it, I am sure yours will do the same thing. When I only had the 12's up front with no center or surrounds ypao would set the fronts to large the crossover at 40hz and extra bass ON. I was able to still adjust the crossover up to 80hz with the mains still getting the full range signal.
    Oh, Listen here mister. We got no way of understandin' this world. But we got as much sense of this bird flyin in the sky. Now there is a lot that bird don't know, but it don't change the fact that the world is happening to him all the same. What I am tryin to say is, is that the course of your life, well its changing, and you don't even see it- Forest Bondurant
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  • tonyb
    tonyb Posts: 32,906
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    So whats the moral of the story here ? Read your manual.....where have I heard that before ? lol
    HT SYSTEM-
    Sony 850c 4k
    Pioneer elite vhx 21
    Sony 4k BRP
    SVS SB-2000
    Polk Sig. 20's
    Polk FX500 surrounds

    Cables-
    Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
    Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
    Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
    Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable

    Kitchen

    Sonos zp90
    Grant Fidelity tube dac
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  • gce
    gce Posts: 2,158
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    I don't have the Yamaha anymore but I do remember that when the speakers were set to small the extra bass was grayed out and could not be used.
    Anaheim Hills CA,
    HT 5.1: Anthem MRX 720 / BDP-Denon DBT1713UD / Polkaudio LSiM703 / W4S mAmp's / Polkaudio LSiM706c / Polkaudio LSiM702F/X's / SVS PC12-NSD / Panasonic TC P55VT30

    2 Channel: Rogue RP-5 / WireWorld Electra power cord / Marantz TT-15S1/ Ortofon - Quintet Black MC / Marantz NA8005 DAC / W4S mAmp's / Synology DS 216+ll-4TB / Polkaudio LSiM703
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  • jeremymarcinko
    jeremymarcinko Posts: 3,785
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    And you would be right. You can't use extra bass when the fronts are set to small. You can, however, use the crossover when speakers are set to large or small. "Extra bass" will keep the fronts at full range AND send the hz's below the crossover point to the sub. If the fronts are set to small they will not receive the full range signal at any point therefore, "extra bass" wouldn't be applicable. The subwoofer cross over in never grayed out unless you do not have a sub of course.
    Oh, Listen here mister. We got no way of understandin' this world. But we got as much sense of this bird flyin in the sky. Now there is a lot that bird don't know, but it don't change the fact that the world is happening to him all the same. What I am tryin to say is, is that the course of your life, well its changing, and you don't even see it- Forest Bondurant
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  • tonyb
    tonyb Posts: 32,906
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    nbrowser wrote: »
    . Is it the right way to run things? Maybe but eh sounds quite nice to my ears.

    ....and that my friend is the name of the game.

    Audio, especially HT doesn't have to be something created in the basement at NASA.

    HT SYSTEM-
    Sony 850c 4k
    Pioneer elite vhx 21
    Sony 4k BRP
    SVS SB-2000
    Polk Sig. 20's
    Polk FX500 surrounds

    Cables-
    Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
    Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
    Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
    Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable

    Kitchen

    Sonos zp90
    Grant Fidelity tube dac
    B&k 1420
    lsi 9's
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  • jflail2
    jflail2 Posts: 2,868
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    I should consider changing my user name to Captain Waffle on here, as I've done a complete 180 on my 2CH set up. After re-calibrating and tinkering now that the sub sounds much more broken in, I've landed on fronts set to small, sub on, and crossover set to 90 for 2CH.

    To cover my rear/ make sure I wasn't hearing things, I had a friend do a blind test for x-over at 80 or 120, and then worked to the middle. I also tried the x-over at various settings with the fronts set to both small and large. We agreed on everything except the x-over, which he preferred at 100, and I prefer at 90.

    Maybe it was just the effect of "sober ears", or maybe it was the sub breaking in. Either way, this is now my settings of choice for 2CH listening.


    2007 Club Polk Football Pool Champ

    2010 Club Polk Fantasy Football Champ

    2011 Club Polk Football Pool Champ


    "It's like a koala bear crapped a rainbow in my brain!"
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  • Mystery
    Mystery Posts: 2,546
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    Okay you got the 'Flip Flopper' title. ;)

    Klipsch RB81, KG3.5, B&W DM602.5, Polk.
    Subwoofers: Klipsch RW10, Triad ProSub Bronze.
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  • gce
    gce Posts: 2,158
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    Nothing wrong with waffling as long as it sounds good, it's all good!
    Anaheim Hills CA,
    HT 5.1: Anthem MRX 720 / BDP-Denon DBT1713UD / Polkaudio LSiM703 / W4S mAmp's / Polkaudio LSiM706c / Polkaudio LSiM702F/X's / SVS PC12-NSD / Panasonic TC P55VT30

    2 Channel: Rogue RP-5 / WireWorld Electra power cord / Marantz TT-15S1/ Ortofon - Quintet Black MC / Marantz NA8005 DAC / W4S mAmp's / Synology DS 216+ll-4TB / Polkaudio LSiM703
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  • MetropolisLake
    MetropolisLake Posts: 128
    edited January 2015
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    pearsall001 wrote: »
    In 2 channel if you set your speakers to Large & you prefer the sound to setting them to Small w/ the sub then you haven't dialed the sub in correctly to play in your room.

    An electric guitar with standard tuning can actually hit 81 hz as the root frequency of the low E string, with drop D going even lower. Personally I don't like electric guitars coming through my subs via a mono signal so I don't quite understand the crowd that says set them to small and cross them over at 80. Drums are the same way, I think your towers ought to be able to handle a floor tom and most of the kick drums. The upper end of what gets sent to a sub when you cross over at 80 then start bashing on the kick drums isn't really omni-directional like sub-bass is either.
    Post edited by MetropolisLake on
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