New to me 3.1tl... Upgrade

gtianz

I dont have the Larry rings or the new terminal cups yet but, I got started on one of the speakers.

Actually a lot of work and it definitely takes some time.

I've taken a lot of photo's. Will get them posted soon.

gtianz

I managed to complete 1 speaker tonight. Approximately 8 hours of work to do these minor upgrades.

As I stated from the begining these speakers are in excellent condition. I don't think any of the drivers have ever been pulled. The grills and side panels are in perfect condition....no breaks snares or snags. There is some dust on the fabric in a few of the photo's. They just need a damp cloth to clean up.





1st round of upgrades (will only need 1 tube of loctite power grab and 1 tube of JB weld for both speakers):


There are original stickers from 1990 on the crossovers, grills, and even some of the drivers.





The bracing and build quality is actually quite impressive. The cabinet felt very solid with 9 cross braces and countless corner braces throughout the enclosure.



Installed blackhole 5 based on the information and photo's seen elsewhere on club polk. 3" x 4" for most of the squares. In a couple of locations on the side walls I used 3" x 7-8" rectangles. Curious to see the results. I figured it would be easy to remove some if I'm unhappy with the performance.





Loctite power grab over all the internal edges. I focused heavily on the the passive radiator chamber. There were a couple of holes on the rear bottom corners that I filled with loctite.



Installed JB weld in two locations on the bottom and top of the magnet assemblies. I know most people recommend 4 places on bottom and top but, my drivers all looked good and I didnt see the need or reason for it.



You can also see how the dynamat and armacell was applied. I did learn a nice trick applying the armacell: approximately every 1" of the armacell place a relief cut on the edge (relief cut should not impeed upon the basket frame).



At this point only one of the speakers is completed. I can hear a difference between the two speakers but I'm hesitant to attempt to draw any conclusions on the changes. I will repeat the process on the 2nd speaker and then I'll report back with any conclusions.

xjghost

Nice write up and pictures. Is the Black hole just put on the back of the enclosure or is that it that looks to be about 1" thick? I have heard mention to it but never seen it installed.

gtianz

Blackhole 5 is really thick. Well over 1" and it weighs quite a bit - I was rather surprised. Even though it doesn't look like it in the photo's I put the squares directly behind all the midrange drivers and tweeters and on the sides next to them as well. On the back of the BH5 is a strong adhesive. I can't imagine any problems with it losing adhesion.

xjghost

gtianz wrote: »

Blackhole 5 is really thick. Well over 1" and it weighs quite a bit - I was rather surprised. Even though it doesn't look like it in the photo's I put the squares directly behind all the midrange drivers and tweeters and on the sides next to them as well. On the back of the BH5 is a strong adhesive. I can't imagine any problems with it losing adhesion.

What is it for? What is it supposed to do?

gtianz

From what I have read i believe it serves two main purposes.

(My language, understanding, and explanation may definitely be off here - if it needs correcting feel free to chime in.)

Drivers send sound both to the front and also to their back. The sound waves sent to the rear are absorbed and reflected by the speaker cabinets. Some of these sound waves are also reflected back out of the front of the speakers resulting in a "muddled" sound.

Using black hole 5 helps reduce cabinet vibrations as well as absorb some of reflecting sound waves.

Product description

"Black Hole 5 is a complex multi-layered material only 1-3/8" thick creating a system that combines the three key functions of damping, isolation, and absorption. All layers are laminated together without adhesive to optimize the overall performance of the Black Hole 5 and to eliminate the release of undesirable solvent fumes. The thin diamond pattern embossing, densified with a polyurethane film surface,will dramatically improve performance of the whole acoustical system, especially the sensitive lower mid-range and mid-bass frequencies. A 1" thick polyurethane foam provides highly efficient acoustical absorption. A "dead wall" made with limp flexible vinyl copolymer loaded with non-lead inorganic fillers serves as a vibration isolator. An open cell flexible polyurethane foam allows for dispersion of vibrations from the cabinet wall from the rest of the damping system. Finally a high loss black flexible viscoelastic damping layer with pressure sensitive adhesive provides superior bonding for optimum efficiency of the Black Hole 5. The Black Hole 5 can be used in any type of enclosure as well as acoustical panels of a sound listening room."

gtianz

I just had my WOW and AHA moments within 10 minutes of each other.

I've been working out my system with music like mark knopfler, pink Floyd, the Beatles, misc rock and electronica.

But, I'm a big piano, jazz, and blues fan. I just generally listen to jazz/classical at low volumes on my bedroom system while I'm relaxing in bed reading a book or playing games on the phone.

Tonight i threw some Wynton Marsalis on the 3.1's.

The WOW moment came after Wynton was blasting beautifully center stage and completed his portion of the song. An alto saxophone came in to his right for an exuberant solo.

I swear that I could see (hear) the saxophone being moved around the microphone as the musician was demonstrating his mastery of the instrument. It was amazing to visualize the player moving up, down, left, and right of the mic as he played.

I have never noticed anything like that with any other speaker I have owned.

The AHA moment came with a piano that had a stereo mic or two microphones in the "chamber" (no idea what the stringed component of a grand piano is called). Bottom line the piano sounded terrible..... Sure the tone and reproduction of the piano sounded good.... But, it sounded like the piano was 20 feet wide. Lower registry on my left and the upper on my right. And, the middle range was somewhat lost and muddled center stage.

This has to be from how they set up the microphones for the piano. And, this is definitely the Achilles heal for SDA speakers.

Shortly after suffering through a 20 foot wide piano i was graced with a beautiful rendition of "when you wish upon a star" where it was definitely single mic'd. The piano was absolutely wonderful sounding dead center and full of life.

On a positive note, i was very happy with how balanced and full the 3.1's sounded with jazz. Very realistic and accurate reproduction of instruments. The mids/tweets (rd0-198's) are fantastic with sax/trumpet.

Another negative: i think my Dahlquist DQ-10's are a better speaker for jazz/piano/blues. They do very well with the female voice and they sound so relaxed.

Mike Reeter

As far as can tell, you haven't rebuilt the x-overs yet? If not, you still haven't realized the full potential of these speakers.

The 20+ year old caps. and resistors are holding them back. Your 3.1's are in impecable condition, they deserve the Full Treatment!

gtianz

Mike i will be doing the crossovers as well. Will just take some time.

I'm even taking things a step further. I will be dividing the basement by building a new wall and enclosing the media room. The room will measure 15'x11'. A little small but it will make tremendous improvements for audio reproduction.



On the right you can see a stairway banister. That will be getting enclosed and the wall will start at the base of the stairs.

gtianz

Completed round 1 of upgrades to both speakers.

Sealed cabinets and dampened all speaker baskets.

Tremendous improvements. Bottom line the speakers sound more accurate and responsive. Very forward and aggressive in their presentation. I am loving them especially turned up loud!

I do feel the tweets are too hot. I am considering a previous recommendation of reversing the polarity and putting in a higher value resistor to reduce the tweeter output when i redo the crossovers. Or perhaps I should just add an EQ to the signal path.

Then i got something in the mail today:





VR3 terminals. Beautifully made and absolutely plug and play. Applied the included armacel and simply unclipped the old ones and installed the new ones.

xjghost

Ok what is that where you get it and how much it cost.....???? Hopefully my rings will be in soon!

gtianz

They are a tad spendy at $200 shipped. But, i figured that I'm going whole hog for these speakers that I might as well go all in.

(Google) Vr3 mods - a member here on the forums as well.

xjghost

Ok so that is his speaker terminal plate and inter connect adaptation. I've emailed him about his upgrade but it might have to wait on my 3.1's. I have an adcom that needs attention and a Hafler I'm dying to upgrade not to mention the monitor 10's and RTA 12c's I want to upgrade...... damn rabbit hole!

ken brydson

xjghost wrote: »

I want to upgrade...... damn rabbit hole!

Sig material right there... Surprised "damn" made it past the vanilla police, LOL...

gtianz

Was doing some listening tonight with the mrs cuddling at mid to moderate volumes.

I have commented extensively about how i feel the speakers are forward and too hot on the top end. Listening with my wife i turned the volume down everytime the sound seemed a bit harsh. The harshness is quickly controlled once the volume is reduced by the slightest of margins.

Perhaps i need to look at my pre/amplification.

The music my wife was wanting to listen to sounded great at moderate volume levels. (80's female goddesses)

Wife said "they sound good and i can see how it is a stress release."

Approval! I am a lucky man.

Larry rings arrived. After the holidays I'll buy the crossover parts and get stage 2 of the upgrades completed!

Mystery

gtianz wrote: »

Was doing some listening tonight with the mrs cuddling at mid to moderate volumes.

That's a nice way of enjoying music.

gtianz

solved all my brightness issues.

It was entirely the fault of my pre-amp. I was using a very old parasound beast of a preamp. It covered my needs well but was an old design intended for AV.

i replaced it with a parasound p5. Beautiful preamp that seems to just get ut of the way of the music. Stereo pre with a built in dac - no coloring, no noise, and quite detailed. The harshness is gone with a very mild reduction on the high end.

listening to a sexy french female voice at the moment. pure bliss!
coeur de pirate - corbeau. highly rcommended

https://youtube.com/watch?v=jJ9FlZiENRw

tonyb

Doing a bang up job there , and btw....love the look of that room.

drumminman

Your in for a treat if you like the speakers now. Once you rebuild the Xovers they'll rise to another level of SQ.

gtianz

I picked up a 2nd M&K MX-70 subwoofer.

I know the Polk's have good base response and can go quite low. According to the speaker specifications 3.1 TL's are -3db at 35 hz. I just want/enjoy a little more punch on the bottom end.

I am trying to figure out the best way to integrate the subs into the system. The parasound pre-amp has good crossover/level controls for subs. Currently I have the crossover set at 35 hz. This definitely results in an undesirable bass hump.

Anyone have any suggestions? Does anyone know the crossover points for 3.1TL's - I haven't been able to find anything online?

I was thinking that I could have the subs roll in at the top of the bass range.


Speaker update: I am trying my first crossover rebuild on a pair of Dahlquist DQ-10's. Figure I'll screw them up before attempting a rebuild on the Polk's + I will need back-up speakers while the polks are under the knife.

gtianz

No responses but I found quite a few other posts.... Even the monster at the top of the list concerning using a sub with 1.2's.

After a bunch of fiddling I got it figured out.

I just set the crossover to 100hz and set the subs at a really low output. Two push-pull 8" drivers per sub makes them very fast and musical.... And having 2 subs makes a huge difference compared to the H/T junk I have tried in the past.

Definitely doing a good job to re-enforce the low end without being overwhelming. I'm sure that I still have a low frequency peak or two.

After i build the wall to enclose my entertainment room I might build a couple of floor to ceiling corner bass traps to help resolve potential room issues.

sirmrks

hey am interested in an update please.
great job posting information
hoping to pick up a pair on teusday and start a new journey.
one of my sda2s developed issues and I haven't done much to fix them.
this post gives me a little motivation as it doesn't look so overwhelming any more.
thank you
mrks

lawdogg

gtianz wrote: »

No responses but I found quite a few other posts.... Even the monster at the top of the list concerning using a sub with 1.2's.

After a bunch of fiddling I got it figured out.

I just set the crossover to 100hz and set the subs at a really low output. Two push-pull 8" drivers per sub makes them very fast and musical.... And having 2 subs makes a huge difference compared to the H/T junk I have tried in the past.

Definitely doing a good job to re-enforce the low end without being overwhelming. I'm sure that I still have a low frequency peak or two.

After i build the wall to enclose my entertainment room I might build a couple of floor to ceiling corner bass traps to help resolve potential room issues.

I crossed mine at 80Hz with a 400W 12" ADS sub set to about 1/3 strength. The combination works well, bass isn't boomy but is still house-shaking.

JayCee

Necroposting.....

Look what I found on my doorstep last Friday. Almost all the parts for a 3.1tl upgrade...


Also, building/converting all my SDA and dreadnought IC's to Neutrik connectors.

Was a rumor Blackhole 5 was discontinued a while back. Sonic Craft has it in stock. T'aint cheap but nothing compares.

http://www.soniccraft.com/product_info.php/blackhole-p-50?osCsid=800758f62ec7cf7554bce050ff7c33b5

verb

Very cool! Good to see BH5 back in stock too!

cincycat13

Wahoo. 2 deliveries as well. I don’t think I remembered to get boards on order yet. I think I need to order boards, connectors from mouser and maybe some wire. Gonna take some time but I’ll get it all...

BMF35

Yo Tim, it may have already been mentioned, but make sure the OEM insulation is all up high behind the mid-woofers. None behind the passive radiators.

F1nut

JayCee wrote: »

Necroposting.....

Look what I found on my doorstep last Friday. Almost all the parts for a 3.1tl upgrade...


Also, building/converting all my SDA and dreadnought IC's to Neutrik connectors.

Was a rumor Blackhole 5 was discontinued a while back. Sonic Craft has it in stock. T'aint cheap but nothing compares.

http://www.soniccraft.com/product_info.php/blackhole-p-50?osCsid=800758f62ec7cf7554bce050ff7c33b5

Jeff must have found more of the original BH5 because the current version comes in a different size and isn't made the same. The current version is 12"x18" and costs a lot more per square inch than the original 24"x27". It was never discontinued by the manufacturer, but Jeff told me he wasn't going to sell the new version because of the reduction in size and increase in price.

http://www.speakercity.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=SC&Product_Code=damping-bh5&Category_Code=damping

pitdogg2

Yep last i know jesse and I bought the last two sheets from Jeff. Is that lije 15-20$ more than we paid Jesse? I can't remember I've slept a few times since then. I'll have to think about thus I may buy some just to have.

JayCee

F1nut wrote: »

JayCee wrote: »

Necroposting.....

Look what I found on my doorstep last Friday. Almost all the parts for a 3.1tl upgrade...


Also, building/converting all my SDA and dreadnought IC's to Neutrik connectors.

Was a rumor Blackhole 5 was discontinued a while back. Sonic Craft has it in stock. T'aint cheap but nothing compares.

http://www.soniccraft.com/product_info.php/blackhole-p-50?osCsid=800758f62ec7cf7554bce050ff7c33b5

Jeff must have found more of the original BH5 because the current version comes in a different size and isn't made the same. The current version is 12"x18" and costs a lot more per square inch than the original 24"x27". It was never discontinued by the manufacturer, but Jeff told me he wasn't going to sell the new version because of the reduction in size and increase in price.

http://www.speakercity.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=SC&Product_Code=damping-bh5&Category_Code=damping

Was rooting around in the basement and found well over 1/2 a sheet of BH5 from my upgrades in 2012. Enough that I don't need the sheet I just purchased. Hadn't thought to but will compare the old and new to see if there are any differences.