Sony HAP-Z1ES‎ music streamer/DAC review

BlueFox

Emlyn wrote: »

Sound quality with the pre-installed DSD files is spectacular. Better than SACD disc quality when I've played tracks through my Marantz SA-8004 SACD player. I also have a bunch of high resolution FLAC tracks which I had previously been running through a Squeezebox Touch into a Wyred4Sound DAC or the Marantz. With the DSEE (DSD engine) enabled the sound quality seems to be slightly improved. More engaging without losing detail. WAV files sound slightly better also, sort of reminds me of something like adding a tube buffer inline before going to a preamp.

I suspect Sony is using the same, or improved, DSD circuitry they have in their XA-5400ES SACD player. I had read that it converts CD PCM files to DSD before decoding to analog. I know that it sounds great, for a physical disk spinner.

Enjoy your new toy. It has gotten rave reviews from numerous sources.

[Deleted User]

I personally think anything upsampled is a joke. You simply cant make something out of nothing. Well you can. You take crap, and you will make more crap.

Halen

tonyb

halenhoang wrote: »

I personally think anything upsampled is a joke. You simply cant make something out of nothing. Well you can. You take crap, and you will make more crap.

Halen

Don't know if I'd go that far, but naturally a native signal is most likely your best bet. Truth is, little these days is native, being audio or video.

We have HD movies that were never shot in HD....4K movies upsampled from HD. Most receivers upscale the sound along with BDP's.....dacs too, and in some cases, downsample before upsampling again. We also have Higher rez audio files that were never recorded in high rez, yet have been re-worked, upsampled, and sold as a hi-rez file. So what you think you just bought as a native 24/192 file, has already been upsampled.

I could go on, but I don't think I need to draw a picture for anyone. Yes, there are ways around all that, but what is truly native from start to finish these days ? Maybe your old records on an analog pre amp is about as good as native gets.

erniejade

I heard one the other week at Holm audio. I wish it was a full blown dac but its not. I wish i could take the several sacd and convert or upload to it in dsd but I can't. I wish it had a built in cdp or sacd player and could rip it that way but it doesnt.

I will say whatever it does to the flac files, it makes them sound better vs the cd or just flac played regular on a pc\dac setup or even the NAD player they had in the room.
I brought some flac files on a usb stick. We uploaded them to the Sony. Took the same files and put it on a NAD M50, and then again same files on a pc dac combo. Same system, cables speakers and the sony sounded better every time. I havent done too much research on the HAP-Z1ES‎ to see what else it is doing besides up-sample or changing it to dsd ( like is it applying any other type of correction? ) but, whatever it is doing, it did sound better. They offer a in home weekend trial. I might need to take one home and play with it more.

erniejade

Sony has included its Digital Sound Enhancement Engine (DSEE), which, it says, restores a natural sound thats why lol

tonyb

Which doesn't make it necessarily a bad thing either, especially if your ears are telling you you like the sound.

polkfarmboy

I had the Sony, ps audio mk2, ps audio Dsd and the W4S all playing some Alice Cooper high resolution pcm. The ps audio dsd sounded very artificial the way it smoothed everything over to the point it began to rob it of its dynamics. The sony however did smooth it over a tad but it never intefered with the music to the point it bothered me. The w4s dac 2 and mk2 had a rougher but more dynamic presentation and so my happy medium is the sony.

Guys Isaidon another thread before that the ps audio dsd is overpriced but thats not to say its not a great component. The Dsd from ps should be priced at 3k and its gona crash hard in pricing. Right now one can get the Sony super cheap and with all the features and superb sound its a high end bargain even atfull retail thanks tothe R&D department at sony.

Emlyn

erniejade wrote: »

Sony has included its Digital Sound Enhancement Engine (DSEE), which, it says, restores a natural sound thats why lol

The DSEE function is a different thing from the DSD processing and filtering of PCM signals. DSEE simply reprocesses compressed or lossless PCM files, which is a pretty common thing, but the implementation in this case is developed by Sony. I have no MP3 files on mine, so I can't comment on what difference that function may make with compressed files. The DSD processing, filtering, and clocking is the big deal here and isn't a common function at all at the price point Sony is offering it at. There is also an 8x oversampling function, but I can't tell if that does anything from what I hear at the different settings.

The settings are explained here:

http://helpguide.sony.net/ha/hapz1es/v1/en/contents/TP0000525634.html

tonyb

I don't know if I'd say it's a "big deal" offering DSD at Sony's price point. There's some others also hitting that price point. Bottom line is how this sounds to you, and meets your needs which is pretty much how we judge all pieces I would think.

Audio never stops amazing me at the amount of ways they keep coming up with to skin the same cat. Some may sound better, some not, but one things for sure, it never comes cheaply. lol

erniejade

Skip, it sounds funny but, I have never played with the eq or sound settings on Jriver and I have been using it for 2 years now. I upgraded to v20 a few months ago. I should see how it does with it on some bad mastering.

Since its sony's 1st run at it, I don't want to jump on one just yet but, I am definatly interested in playing with one at home. I have been using the w4s dac2 for a few years now. I was debating to update it to the se DSD version then I jumped on the Geek soul tube dac that is still being built but, then I heard the sony and I was just suprised on how much better it sounded.

The one thing I did like about the NAD version, it has a built in cdrom. Granted the "storage unit" for the nad 2k$!!!

Again, the Sony really did sound good. Like better then it should have.

erniejade

I have a little cheater on the w4s. Kind of un-audiophile of me but, thanks to Pitdog i have a yaqin buffer on the back of it.... ya I went there LOL.

erniejade

That was another reason why the Tube Soul had my interest,,, well that and them actually listening to their customers during the build out of the units and adding things to them like Femto, better caps, power supply... The list goes on. I am inpressed with the little geek out 1000 so I took a chance.

pitdogg2

F1nut wrote: »

Oh snap, we should have released our entire music catalog on SACD like we said we would ten years ago.

couldn't agree more they flubbed it real good.

[Deleted User]

tonyb wrote: »

halenhoang wrote: »

I personally think anything upsampled is a joke. You simply cant make something out of nothing. Well you can. You take crap, and you will make more crap.

Halen

Don't know if I'd go that far, but naturally a native signal is most likely your best bet. Truth is, little these days is native, being audio or video.

We have HD movies that were never shot in HD....4K movies upsampled from HD. Most receivers upscale the sound along with BDP's.....dacs too, and in some cases, downsample before upsampling again. We also have Higher rez audio files that were never recorded in high rez, yet have been re-worked, upsampled, and sold as a hi-rez file. So what you think you just bought as a native 24/192 file, has already been upsampled.

I could go on, but I don't think I need to draw a picture for anyone. Yes, there are ways around all that, but what is truly native from start to finish these days ? Maybe your old records on an analog pre amp is about as good as native gets.

You ever compared a so called up sampled anything video to 1080? Has it ever looked better than anything native 1080? What size screen? The best way I could explain this. If up sampling in audio and upsampling in video makes the video that amazing, I strongly suggest getting the vision checked. Screen size is in play here. So too, is the synergy and how revealing your audio components are.

BlueFox

You appear to not understand the concept of upsampling. Of course some video recorded at a lower rate and upsampled to 1080p will not look as good as the same thing recorded in 1080p. Nobody has ever claimed it would be better than, or even equal to, native 1080p.

It most likely will be better upsampled than at the original lower resolution. Of course, that is a generality, and depends on the quality of the original source, and the skills of the video engineer doing the upsampling.

The same thing applies to audio. My Bryston BDA-2 DAC has switchable on/off upsampling. Some tracks benefit, some don't. My Auralic Vega DAC upsamples everything, PCM/DSD, to some crazy rate, and then outputs it at its native rate. I have no complaints here. It sounds freaking great.

polkfarmboy

Halenhoang your opinion is just that so try expressing it as just that, your not some wise audio guru. I noticed your posting all aggressive on other threads too so maybe you should relax a little?

SCompRacer

halenhoang wrote: »

I personally think anything upsampled is a joke. You simply cant make something out of nothing. Well you can. You take crap, and you will make more crap.

Halen

If only it would be that simple and true......

[Deleted User]

It all comes down to personal preferences, it is not a knock on anything or anyone. Ultimately, it is not about a badge that is placed on a product, really. I just noticed a trend of what sounds good is based on statistics, 24 bit, 32 bit, etc. How about we just sit, listen and enjoy.

I am still learning as my journey still continues. There are certain setups that I do really enjoy and highly praise but I have never walked away saying "Man,.. that upsampling was just mind blowing".

PFB. The aggression probably stems from researching too much into Home Theater and the minions from two very large web sites. Apologies.

Halen

erniejade

If we all had the same opinions, it would be one heck of a boring world!. Like me putting the tube buffer on my w4s dac2. Some would say its just introducing noise into the system but I thought it gave it some "personality".

Anyway back to the Sony, besides up sampling, it its applying sound correction. There is a feature to disable it. So far from what I have read, it sounds better enabled.

[Deleted User]

So all of this is: making a bootleg live greatest hits CD of your favorite band with audacity and then find they sound live Shiite after going to see them in concert?

tonyb

halenhoang wrote: »

It all comes down to personal preferences, it is not a knock on anything or anyone. Ultimately, it is not about a badge that is placed on a product, really. I just noticed a trend of what sounds good is based on statistics, 24 bit, 32 bit, etc. How about we just sit, listen and enjoy.

Halen

Now that, I can get behind.

We keep saying there is no right or wrong in audio and let your ears be the judge. Different strokes for different folks and all that.

Earnie, that is a great description of what the W4S lacks, imho anyway, personality. As long as you found a way to give it some, roll with it.

erniejade

Tony as I get a little older, (im only 46 but.....) my taste is changing slightly. I used to be all about finding "the truth" in my home system and prefered a bit more anlitical sound. Now while I still find that souns good, I cant take it for a long period especially kicked up for too long and leaning towards the warmer or laid back sound for longer louder listening without fatigue for my ears. If I can quote myself "accurate but not accurate". I want the truth but I want it a hair sweeter. The w4s dac2 is accurate. Putting the buffer on it just sweetened it up a bit and gave it personality.

I think thats what I liked about the Sony unit when I was heard it against a couple of units at the store. It just made things sound pleasing or better to my ears.

Emlyn

erniejade wrote: »

I think thats what I liked about the Sony unit when I was heard it against a couple of units at the store. It just made things sound pleasing or better to my ears.

That is exactly what I am hearing with mine. I have been looking for better digital sound for many years, and think I have finally found something I can live with for a long time. And to say that about a Sony product for me is quite something! The trend around 15 years ago seemed to be to try and make high end CD players and DACs to sound more analog, but those usually came up short in resolution. I used tube buffers too to try to add some life to the sound but never came close to sounding analog to me. The latest trend seems to be to go for resolution, but at the expense of soul and sounding overly dry, unengaging, and analytical (boring!). I also have a DAC2 and moved it into a second system that is all solid state electronics. It sounds better there.

I wouldn't say the HAP-Z1ES is without problems on the ease of use end, and could easily understand why many would grow frustrated with how slow it is to initially set up. The wireless connectivity on mine is unstable for more than a handful of tracks at a time. There is also room for other improvements if they come up with a version 2 in a couple of years.

tonyb

I think you may find the same in most older sets of ears Ern. We can't take that "turn it up 'till your ears bleed" stuff anymore. We like volume, just not those highs when played at higher volumes that send you running out of a room.

That said, maybe the Sony is voiced for our age brackets, and ears. Not a bad thing, just good marketing. After all, younger sets of ears won't shell out a G note for a streamer anyway.

erniejade

@tony & elmyn. True on both! . Elmyn from what I have been reading the sony also has a 20k limit. The other thing I wish it would do is be able to take a "normal pc " formatted drive and hook it to the back for uploading. I also wish it had an internal sacd player that would rip sacd and redbook. Like an all in one unit so you would not have to have a pc to rip and then load it to the sony but, then I would be afraid it might make the files only readable to the Sony and not something else like you pc or car or portable devices. I would also like to see a remote kind of like a pad with a small display but just for the sony so you dont have to rely on another device and app to run it or search. In the words of Queen, I want it all and I want it now!.

I still feel its a start in the right direction while not perfect, a start.

I am glad Holm audio by me has this unit. Having it up side by side with your own files is a nice way to go for a demo.

tonyb

LOL...you want it all and you want it now huh. Join the crowd, some of us have been waiting 40 years for that to happen, good luck with that. It's all about maximizing profits, the money....which makes change sluggish.

Emlyn

erniejade wrote: »

Elmyn from what I have been reading the sony also has a 20k limit. The other thing I wish it would do is be able to take a "normal pc " formatted drive and hook it to the back for uploading.

I loaded 25K tracks on mine and found any tracks above the 20K database limit "confused" the player. Speed of track access seemed to be fine with that many files loaded into it, but it would not show the right cover art for tracks loaded after the 20K boundary was reached. Some of the tracks were also randomly spread in different folders than where they belonged after the 20K limit. I backed out several thousand files I was unlikely to ever listen to. Bear in mind though, that all of my tracks are in WAV format, including a lot of high resolution PCM tracks from HDtracks. At around 19K files, I'm still only using around 750GB. I did load a 2TB onto it through the USB port and it worked fine, but I just haven't needed to use its extra capacity so disconnected it.

I guess the solution to get around the 20K limit is to buy two!

erniejade

Buy 2? You just lost your credibility since you clearly work for Sony's marketing department! lol.

polkfarmboy

I dont have enough music to fill my z1 up.

erniejade

I dont either yet. I still have around 1k of cds to rip.