MM vs MC cartridge

gce

Which cartridge will produce the better sound. I have a Clearaudio Virtuoso Ebony MM cartridge with my TT15S1. I do like the sound it produces but I plan on getting a Tube Phono Preamp soon that will handle a MM or MC. So I'll have the option of trying a MC.

So the question for you turntable guys is which cartridge do you have in your rig and which one do you think is better?

SCompRacer

Whoa, this can be a spirited debate. Basically, the MC has less internal mass and can respond quicker thus providing more detail than an MM cart. The general downside, MC's typically output less mV and you need a real good high output phono pre or good SUT (step up transformer) before the MM phono stage.

I prefer low output (.3mV) MC's over high output MC's. Then again there are threads that prefer certain MM carts. Then you have Soundsmith cartridges which are moving iron with less internal mass than MC... it can go on and on. IMO the better the gear, the more appreciation for MC carts.

I had a Dynavector Karat 17D3 which is a low output MC. Currently have an aluminum bodied Denon 103R on one arm and an AT33PTG/II on another. Both are low output MC's. IMO the AT is on a par with the 17D3 for less money.

We need an LOMC action shot...

Msabot1

Yea...I can see this turning into one of those cable debates....I have always used a higher end MM....anyway..the cartridge is the last consideration in vinyl playback..the first two are the turntable and tonearm that it is matched to...You can always get away with a lesser cartridge that is matched with a precision tonearm..and the table itself.

westmassguy

Loved my Shure V15 Type V MR, wish I still had it. One of the best MM Cartridges.

Msabot1

westmassguy wrote: »

Loved my Shure V15 Type V MR, wish I still had it. One of the best MM Cartridges.

Heck yea...there is a reason why the V series sat on top of the heap for 50 years...I think they are out of production....sadly...

westmassguy

You can still find the Cartridges, and there is a company manufacturing the MR Stylus again.

gce

SCompRacer wrote: »

The general downside, MC's typically output less mV and you need a real good high output phono pre or good SUT (step up transformer) before the MM phono stage.

So would the Pro-Ject tube DS have enough output to drive a MC or would a higher end preamp be needed?


Technical data

Tube assembly - 2x ECC83 (12AX7)
Input impedance for low output MC - VARIABLE 10 ohms - 1000 ohms
Capacitance (MM) - 47pF / 147pF / 267pF / 367pF
Gain MM / MC - 40 / 50 / 60 dB
Signal-to-noise ratio - 93dBA
THD - < 0,1%
RIAA curve accuracy - within 0,5dB/20Hz - 20kHz
Subsonic filter - 20Hz @ 18dB/octave
Power supply - 18V/1000mA DC; 220 - 240V, 50Hz

jon s

Moving Coil:
1. sounds better
2. no rubber grommet to hold the stylus in place, so lasts longer
3. A lot more expensive
4. low output, usually requires a MC pre-amp for the phono preamp
5. cartridge usually pretty massive

Moving Magnet
1. okay sound
2. rubber grommet that holds stylus in place hardens with age, affecting sound
3. cheaper
4. works with standard phono preamp
5. lighter than MC

mhardy6647

Almost anything will sound better than that Virtuoso Ebony, IMO -- I found it soul-less; "uninvolving" as the golden ear types might put it. Very boring, relative to my expectations.

You might want to try a Grado (a moving iron design, available in normal MM-level output and, in the case of the better ones, lower output versions, too) -- they get that flesh and blood thing pretty well and there are many, many to choose from (pick your price point). Had I the discretionary cash to spare, I think I'd put a Denon DL-301II (another pretty good and not terribly expensive LOMC) in mine. I do know someone in MA who is using a Denon DL-103 LOMC (see below) in a Clearaudio Satisfy arm (same arm as the Marantz) with some added mass on the headshell to allow for the very low compliance of the DL-103

FWIW, I put my TT-15S1 back into its box and went a different route entirely: Denon DL-103 (just the unsuffixed, plain vanilla version) on a dump-find Technics SL-Q2 (direct drive :- O) tt. Much more life. There's a reason that this cartridge has been in (continuous) production since the very early 1960s... it's a gateway drug :- )

Oh, something above about an LOMC action shot... here's another :- )

spinnin3 by mhardy6647, on Flickr

SCompRacer

gce wrote: »

SCompRacer wrote: »

The general downside, MC's typically output less mV and you need a real good high output phono pre or good SUT (step up transformer) before the MM phono stage.

So would the Pro-Ject tube DS have enough output to drive a MC or would a higher end preamp be needed?


Technical data

Tube assembly - 2x ECC83 (12AX7)
Input impedance for low output MC - VARIABLE 10 ohms - 1000 ohms
Capacitance (MM) - 47pF / 147pF / 267pF / 367pF
Gain MM / MC - 40 / 50 / 60 dB
Signal-to-noise ratio - 93dBA
THD - < 0,1%
RIAA curve accuracy - within 0,5dB/20Hz - 20kHz
Subsonic filter - 20Hz @ 18dB/octave
Power supply - 18V/1000mA DC; 220 - 240V, 50Hz

Yeah, 60dB will work for LOMC cartridges. You have variable loading for MC cartridges too. HOMC cartridges will usually be like MM, 47k ohm. In other words, make sure you can adjust your stage to the suggested cartridge loading. Some phono stages have a fixed MC loading. My LOMC's have been >100 ohms.

The ProJect tube phono boxes I've heard sounded pretty good!

More LOMC shots.



An aluminum bodied Denon 103R.



A nice NOS Acutex MM cart.

mhardy6647

oooh. You win! :- )

voltz

Sterophile mag did a review of 500 recommended components and and the Denon DL-103 was on the list.

SCompRacer

mhardy6647 wrote: »

oooh. You win! :- )

Those who spin vinyl are all winners.

schwarcw

The DL-103 has been around for around 50 years and is still selling well. There are some mods that can be done to make this cartridge sound even better. I have a Zu D-103R that the Soundsmith retipped with a contour diamond stylus and a ruby cantilever. Here are some photos:

schwarcw

This cartridge on my Denon DL-59 table is a match made in heaven!!

gce

Will all MM n' MC cartridges mount on any tonearm or is there something you have to look for on each application, wiring, mounting etc...?

mhardy6647

SCompRacer wrote: »

mhardy6647 wrote: »

oooh. You win! :- )

Those who spin vinyl are all winners.

well...

mhardy6647

gce wrote: »

Will all MM n' MC cartridges mount on any tonearm or is there something you have to look for on each application, wiring, mounting etc...?

Well - most use the standard 1/2" mount, but there's a bit of art and science involved in matching cartridge and arm. The other common cartridge mount standard, late in the game, was the P-mount. There are still P-mount cartridges available for arms that requre them.
-

SCompRacer

mhardy6647 wrote: »

well...


[/quote]


I'll raise you an improved portable player.

Mike Reeter

A lot of cartridge **** on here I have a SoundSmith Zephyr, a Moving Iron design that plays very well, and loads in the same parameters as an MM.

Getting ready to try a LOMC design one day soon, want to hear what all the hubbub is about!

[Deleted User]

Hello,
Interesting discussion. There is another difference between the two generating systems. In a moving magnet or moving iron type cartridge as the record is moving underneath there is a pulling movement along the axis of the cartridge's cantilever. The pivoting system used on the cantilever allows for a very small of forward and backward motion by the cantilever. The result is a very small output voltage is produced, by the cartridge, as the cantilever is pulled forward. In some cartridge designs, such as Bang and Olufsen's, there can be as much signal produced by the tugging on the cantilever as the record groove moving it from side-to-side. This output voltage acts as a frequency modulator causing the music to "ride" on this "carrier" frequency. Thing of having your speakers mounted on stands that moved them forward and backward small amounts as they played.
In a moving coil type speaker, since the coil has to be moved at an angle, rather than along its axis, to produce an output voltage it isn't susceptible to this type of distortion. This is why a properly setup and adjusted moving coil cartridge has a more stable image than a moving iron or moving magnet type. Listen to a well recorded violin recording and see if the violin doesn't change position as the frequency changes, as if the violinist were being moved from side-to-side on a skateboard. Chances are it will be the result of the cartridge design.
Cheers, Ken

Dennis Gardner

I can't get the visions of P.T. Barnum and his skateboarding violinist outta my head...Thanks Ken.

I do believe that when most people get great sound from their vinyl rig with changes, they rarely know what they changed to get that magic. The same happens in reverse, that when small changes are accidentally made, you don't know how to get back the lost magic.

Thus the "science and art" part of tuning and setup of a turntable. Simply getting both channels to be equal in volume crops up from time to time, unless you are meticulous in your setup method;

I suggest P type mounts for new listeners with fumble fingers or someone that lacks loads of patience. I know this is below the level of MM/MI vs. MC, but for those just finding vinyl, it is an important consideration.

Vinyl can be just as exasperating as it is exhilerating.....

To original poster's question, I currently run Ariston RD40 with Jelco arm & Grado MF3, Ariston Icon with Jelco arm and Grado Z1+ and Thorens TD318 with TP21 arm & Signet MR E, all higher output MI or MM designs.

voltz

now these are the subjects & talks that make this forum special, thanks for the good info.

soundfreak1

I will ad this.... I heard my first MC Cartridge In A Buddys System ( I'm very fimiliar with the sound of his system) he has been using shure V15 with MR stylus for some time and it sounded great! He put in a MC cartridige and blew his and my mind.absolutly ruined my ears for any MM cartridges I've heard! Will be upgrading to MC as soon as possible! The differance was astonding.

gce

So I'm still going to try a MC cart. I came across a Ortofon Quintet Black MC and it looks like a good buy (good reviews). Anyone have any opinions on these?

voltz

here is Ortofon info
http://ortofon.com/hifi/products/cartridges/moving-coil/mc-quintet-series/quintet-black

scottyboy76

great info guys thanks.

My question is would buying a more expensive mc cart to replace the rega bias 2 that came with my Rega RP1 really make it shine considering the lower level TT it would be attached to.

I run it through a jolida JD9 in case that helps.

If this plus a dac for digital files and cd playback is where i spend my upgrade money of about 1000 bucks, would that amount be enough to make a great difference.

I run everything through a sonic frontiers sfl1, and an anthem amp2, into a pair of sda 1cs.

Any help is appreciated.

gce

scottyboy76 wrote: »

My question is would buying a more expensive mc cart to replace the rega bias 2 that came with my Rega RP1 really make it shine considering the lower level TT it would be attached to.

Yeah, that's the big question. Without listening to one or the other you just don't know and the more you spend the better they supposedly get. That's why I post, to maybe see if anyone has one and can comment. The problem with that is their system is different then ours. So it might/could sound different than what they say.

I was looking at some reviews on the Ortofon Quintet Black and in one review they said that the Ortofon Cadenza Black is way better but its more than twice price. I guess in this hobby you get what you pay for.