my fiendish plan

mhardy6647

Thanks to this forum's own mrbiron, I have - on loan - his lovingly hand-crafted Hagerman Bugle II phono preamp/EQ. I also have a smattering of other semi-interesting "phonostages", an original Hagerman Bugle (with power supply and Piccolo head amp for LOMC, too) and a very early, bone stock Bottlehead Seduction. I also have the luxury of owning one pretty good store-bought (solid state) phono preamp (Just Listen to It, designed by the late Allen Wright).

I think it would be fun, and possibly even interesting, to make at least WAV-quality digital recordings of each phono preamp playing the same recording using the same tt and cartridge -- the only variable being the preamp.

I was going to do this with a dual-tray Philips standalone CD-R (audio) recorder I have -- but it has an "issue" --it'll only record about 1 minute of audio program before it stops and says that the disc is full :-P

Now, I am thinkin' of using as best I can one of the computers and s/w to do it. No, I don't own any good soundcards, so this may be a fool's errand... but sometime in the next month to decade, if I actually get around to it... I'll let you know.

I am happy to receive any constructive :-) advice from those here who know infinitely more about crossing the divide from analog to digital than I!

JLTiphonopreamp by mhardy6647, on Flickr

erniejade

My Philips standalone CD-R did the same thing before it stopped all together.

voltz

sounds cool

I wish had time to ship you my "Graham Slee" Gram amp 2 SE phono stage to add to your test bed

mhardy6647

heh, yeah... I wish that you did, too! ;-)

voltz

You know...if you really wanted to try it, it would only cost me like $5-7 to ship it to you and I would if you pay to ship it back I would be curious of another thoughts on this little phono amp and how it would compare to other. I'd just listen to flac's or SACD's till it got back.

mrbiron

Mhardy,
I'll send you my reduction if you want to really have a true "old vs new" battle.

As a side note, beautifully constructed is an exaggeration. Its a plastic box with RCA's...

Take your time on this one. I haven't spun a record in months!!!! I want to be part of the beta for audio files.

mhardy6647

Well - not sure why I should be the phonostage clearing house! ;-)
That said, anyone close enough ought to just bring a phonostage up to New Hampster and give a listen themselves (plus save a little postage).

That said - the Slee preamp gets good press... and it would be really cool to hear the new(er) Reduction.

Yes, the Bugle II's a board in a box; but it is very nicely done, compact, and works well (i.e., sounds quite good)!

EndersShadow

Thats pretty cool! I am very interesting to hear your thoughts on the Bugle II v I..

mhardy6647

I can tell you already -- and I've only tried it on a b&o TX-2 with the entry-level b&o MMC-4 moving iron cartridge... it sounds very nice, indeed. My sense is it's considerably more "upscale" sounding than the original Bugle but I have yet to A/B them head to head... which is kind of what got me to fomentin' this dastardly plan in the first place! :-)

If I really, really get my act together, I could probably rustle up a few more vintage phonostages (of sorts) to compare, too, you know? ;-)

yamaharack 012414 by mhardy6647, on Flickr
lowrentrack 012414 by mhardy6647, on Flickr
hkrack 012414 by mhardy6647, on Flickr

mrbiron

Dear god man!!!! You're probably on a list somewhere as a potential ted kaczynski. I'd lay low if I were you. Just saying....

I can't bring you the reduction any time soon due to taking a vaca in Mexico but maybe when I get back.......maybe.

chumlie

mhardy6647 wrote: »

I can tell you already -- and I've only tried it on a b&o TX-2 with the entry-level b&o MMC-4 moving iron cartridge... it sounds very nice, indeed. My sense is it's considerably more "upscale" sounding than the original Bugle but I have yet to A/B them head to head... which is kind of what got me to fomentin' this dastardly plan in the first place! :-)

If I really, really get my act together, I could probably rustle up a few more vintage phonostages (of sorts) to compare, too, you know? ;-)

yamaharack 012414 by mhardy6647, on Flickr
lowrentrack 012414 by mhardy6647, on Flickr
hkrack 012414 by mhardy6647, on Flickr

Holy crap. You fell in the hole deep. Hit the bottom & started digging.

bugsnt

mhardy6647 wrote: »

I can tell you already -- and I've only tried it on a b&o TX-2 with the entry-level b&o MMC-4 moving iron cartridge... it sounds very nice, indeed. My sense is it's considerably more "upscale" sounding than the original Bugle but I have yet to A/B them head to head... which is kind of what got me to fomentin' this dastardly plan in the first place! :-)

If I really, really get my act together, I could probably rustle up a few more vintage phonostages (of sorts) to compare, too, you know? ;-)

yamaharack 012414 by mhardy6647, on Flickr
lowrentrack 012414 by mhardy6647, on Flickr
hkrack 012414 by mhardy6647, on Flickr

OMG !!!
Your "Shrine" is impressive to say the least

EndersShadow

Needless to say I can see you definitely like silver faced stuff lol...

Thats a very nice collection of things!

mhardy6647

I have this... thing...for 1970s Yamaha hifi.
I call it a "nonlinearity"; sounds so much more neutral than "obsession" ;-)

On topic, them there ol' Yamahas (Yamahae?) had very respectable sounding phono sections in 'em.

SCompRacer

Aaron (ALL212) built a Bottlehead Seduction with Integration Upgrade and modest cap upgrades. It's an outstanding phono stage.

I was using an older Dell Inspiron E1705 with Audacity to do needle drops. They came out sounding very good. Used tape outs from pre amp with RCA to mini 1/8" phono. IIRC I bought the Signal Cable Silver Mini adapter cable here from Sal.

pitdogg2

mhardy6647 wrote: »

I have this... thing...for 1970s Yamaha hifi.
I call it a "nonlinearity"; sounds so much more neutral than "obsession" ;-)

On topic, them there ol' Yamahas (Yamahae?) had very respectable sounding phono sections in 'em.

There was a time when they really got it right I'm right there with you. I popped my audio cherry with Yamaha AX900u intergrated. My first loan was for that sucker 2nd loan was for *gulp* Cerwin Vega D7's ...I was in heaven:biggrin:

EndersShadow

pitdogg2 wrote: »

There was a time when they really got it right I'm right there with you. I popped my audio cherry with Yamaha AX900u intergrated. My first loan was for that sucker 2nd loan was for *gulp* Cerwin Vega D7's ...I was in heaven:biggrin:

3rd loan was for money for the wedding... and you wish you hadn't taken it out right ....

mhardy6647

The second piece of hifi hardware I bought and paid with my own money was this [amplifier, that is]. Still have it (although it's boxed up in the basement at the moment); still sounds very good... and looks great. Considering what cars and clothes looked like in 1978, the cosmetics of the Yamaha hardware of that time are almost unbelievably simple and elegant.

CA610II and T550 by mhardy6647, on Flickr

Now. Don't laugh at me, OK? I am an analog guru, but a digital tyro! :-)
Today I downloaded & installed Audacity on this here laptop running Win7 and hooked up a b&o TX-2 with MMC-4 MI cartridge via mrbiron's Bugle II to an old (but never before used) Soundblaster outboard USB "soundcard" thingy that I bought years ago (for just this purpose!), and thence to the 'pute. I then recorded a track from Charlie Byrd's eponymous 12" 45 rpm Direct to Disk album on Crystal Clear Records (white vinyl) as a 2 channel WAV file.

I had a little trouble setting the gain (I kept adjusting things, but the peaks kept maxing out... I'm on a learning curve fo' sho'!) but otherwise everything worked as intended and the end result sounded pretty respectable when played back from the laptop to a real hifi (through the USB audio thingy, rather than the laptop's built-in soundcard).

Thought you'd like to see it...

Old Hymn first try 080714 by mhardy6647, on Flickr

So - my intent would be to do essentially the same thing using the same tt, cartridge and recording/track (not necessarily the ones used in this test!) and varying only the phono preamp used. I have to work through my own gain gremlins -- for best results the output levels of all the preamps should be normalized. I think it will be very interesting to be able to listen to multiple phono preamps 'blind' (or, at least, without a lag to switch hardware & cables). I am not really sure the A to D converter's up to the task of differentiating the quality of audio, but it'll cost me nothing but my time to see what happens!

Further details as events warrant.

pitdogg2

EndersShadow wrote: »

3rd loan was for money for the wedding... and you wish you hadn't taken it out right ....

ha ha very funny man you are......uum no spent no money on wedding...court house baby well ok spent just enough to get the marriage license, so I did spend some

mrbiron

Earth to Mr. Hardy....come in Mr. Hardy!!

Even though im in Mexico at this current juncture, i'm still waiting for my files!!!

mhardy6647

I haven't had a chance to make any more :-( The one I did a few days back is clipped -- sounds ok to me but I was hittin' the wall.
I had hoped to spend some quality rainy-day time on the project today... but Mrs. H and I ended up spending the afternoon at the Verizon Store! :-P On the bright side, she has joined the 21st century and now has a smartphone. My cell phone, on the other hand, is analog, has a bell to make it ring, and uses vacuum tubes and a carbon granule microphone ;-)

EndersShadow

mrbiron wrote: »

Even though im in Mexico at this current juncture, i'm still waiting for my files!!!

Big secret, they let you leave but wont let you back in hehehe... they know better....

voltz

mhardy6647 wrote: »

My cell phone, on the other hand, is analog, has a bell to make it ring, and uses vacuum tubes and a carbon granule microphone ;-)

I would expect no less

mhardy6647

The weather is beautiful today... but I will still be retiring to the loft to try - again - to generate some good-quality sound files from rekkids... prolly not 'til eventide, tho'. Not sure what time it is in Mexico... ;-)

mrbiron

Dear lord....i gave you a one of my best weeks in Riveria Maya and still can't produce!!!!
I'll be home tomorrow afternoon and i had better have a beta sample in my inbox. We're taking a packmule from the pennisula...it should only take 42 weeks to cover 3000 miles.

As a side note, dees shoulda's es HAWT!

mhardy6647

OK, here's last night's progress.

Dave Brubeck. Blue Rondo a la Turk on an old (slightly scratchy, but otherwise fine sounding) Columbia Two-eye. b&o TX-2 tangential with MMC-4 MI cartridge. Two different preamps tested: Bugle II and Seduction. The former has lots more gain than the latter; I didn't do a great job of matching levels in the two 'rips' to the digital domain... but at least I didn't clip...

Blue Turk a la Rondo BugleII by mhardy6647, on Flickr
(here's the output from the BugleII)

Data exported to two different formats - WAV and FLAC
(I assume MP3 files wouldn't be worth the effort)
The WAV files are 68 MB, the FLAC are 39 MB.
I think I need some sort of dropbox kinda thingy to put these in? Help? :-P

The two preamps are certainly audibly readily distinguishable -- that's all I'll say for now ;-)

I am interested to compare the Bugle II to the original Bugle that I have...
but...
I am actually kind of scared to compare the Bugle II to my JLTI!

voltz

I got Dave Brubeck's "Time Out" in 45 rpm vinyl! that would be a great choice for testing with

Too bad you don't live closer I'd drop it and my Graham Slee off at your place.

I'd say you just need to make a new folder called "Flac & Wav" to put them in?

and keep up the great work

mhardy6647

No, you silly goose :-) I need to share them with our buddy mrbiron! Too big to e-mail...
I was actually planning to make a full set of comparisons, burn 'em onto a CD and snail-mail 'em.

mrbiron

Did you have to swap out the resistors for the MC vs MM loading or did you just stick with MM carts for the experiment?

I really want to get you the reduction. Maybe some time next week, i'll put on my bigboy pants and ship her up to you. Again, i haven't spun a vinyl in months!!!!!

I could also do a handoff in the cambridge area if you ever stop harassing NH wildlife.

Pit the II against your prized JLTI.....I TRIPLE DOG DARE YOU!!!!!!

mhardy6647

Just MM so far -- I have more options in MM space (although I do own a nice pair of SUTs)...
Actually you ought to pack up the family locomobileone day before the ice age settles back in again and trundle way on up north to New Hampsha and live free... or die!
You really can bring the whole family if'n you like. You've got a little one, right? Mrs. H loves the little ones -- particularly when they're not hers ;-)

I am gonna be in the People's Republic of Cambridge on some business (I still consult a wee bit to help pay for soda pop 'n' stuff) near the end of the month, actually...

voltz

ah I get it I think those file are even to big to use the old Winzip to shrink them up. I haven't tried to do that in years.