eBay vs Everything Else

Nightfall

Why does audio gear seem to go for more money on eBay than it's actually worth? Take this for instance:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/NICE-YAMAHA-CA-1010-STEREO-AMPLIFIER-C966-/380966450319?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item58b35eb48f

I paid $225 for mine and am contemplating selling it to put towards the $2k loan I just took out for a vet bill. I have never heard of anyone ever saying they would pay upwards of $400 for one, even recapped mint condition. What is the reason for this? Is the buyer likely to back out after the auction is over? Are people that are in vintage audio dry areas just willing to pay a premium?

soundfreak1

In a word..... IDIOTS....... I've wondered the same thing myself and thats the only thing that explaines it.

Sci-fi Polk Guy

Nightfall wrote: »

Why does audio gear seem to go for more money on eBay than it's actually worth? Take this for instance:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/NICE-YAMAHA-CA-1010-STEREO-AMPLIFIER-C966-/380966450319?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item58b35eb48f


I paid $225 for mine and am contemplating selling it to put towards the $2k loan I just took out for a vet bill. I have never heard of anyone ever saying they would pay upwards of $400 for one, even recapped mint condition. What is the reason for this? Is the buyer likely to back out after the auction is over? Are people that are in vintage audio dry areas just willing to pay a premium?

Some folks just don't feel like doing a lot of bargain hunting. Also, they may feel safer about buying an item from Ebay than from another used audio gear site where that piece of gear may be cheaper. Perhaps they are so rich that it really doesn't matter how much it costs.

nspindel

I've seen used cd's get bid higher than the price on Amazon, where you can just press 'buy'.

mhardy6647

I think that the eBAY economy, in the steady state (i.e., absent the occasional perturbations of morons and shill bids) works like this. Let's say item X is worth $20 on the traditional garage sale/fleamarket circuit. An example of item X is put on eBAY. It attracts a few bids, including a late one for $19.75. That bid gets sniped, and the "winner" (how does earning the right to pay for a piece of used junk constitute winning? -- but I digress) gets item X for $20.50. Now, searches of complete auctions turn up one that sold for $20.50, so that becomes a perfectly reasonable price for item X. This cycle repeats a few times (perhaps hundreds, or thousands of times) and the going price for item X drifts inexorably upward to, let's say, $30... if supply remains adequate (not too many, not too few) and demand stays strong -- the price might rise further still.

There are other, less evolutionary and more revolutionary drivers, too -- related, I think, to the 'cult' mentality that the internet has exacerbated in recent years among "collectors". I am not sure if there are easy ways to trace the history of prices on eBAY for 'popular' items (there must be, right? I mean, it is the 21st Century! Jane, where's my Jetpack?!?) -- but it'd be really interesting to do so.

I think a great example would be the EICO HF-81 amplifier (a very nice stereo EL84pp integrated amp, by the way). I think I paid $220 for mine in pretty good shape on eBAY a long time ago. Later, a cult of sorts grew up around the amp, driven first by Klipsch forums member Kelly Holsten's beautifully implemented fanboy site* and later by a glowing retro-review (no pun intended) by Peter Breueninger in Stereophile**, of all places. The HF-81s tend to be a bit pricier now ;-)

* http://home.earthlink.net/~eico_hf81/
** http://www.stereophile.com/integratedamps/606eico/

pitdogg2

And yet there are time when an item should sell for a LOT more yet brings a small pittance. I think most get caught up in the auction thing. You've already bid X amount of dollars so bidding X more to win seems reasonable.

nspindel

mhardy6647 wrote: »

I think a great example would be the EICO HF-81 amplifier (a very nice stereo EL84pp integrated amp, by the way). I think I paid $220 for mine in pretty good shape on eBAY a long time ago. Later, a cult of sorts grew up around the amp, driven first by Klipsch forums member Kelly Holsten's beautifully implemented fanboy site* and later by a glowing retro-review (no pun intended) by Peter Breueninger in Stereophile**, of all places. The HF-81s tend to be a bit pricier now ;-)

Yeah, but that's got nothing to do with eBay. You're talking here about a situation where there is a legitimate spike in demand for the HF-81. Supply remains the same, demand goes up, prices go up. That's just Econ 101.

Dennis Gardner

I have a current item listed that the only recent sold listing sold for $600, so I though it would be a good time to list. Mine has sat for 3 weeks at $179 without a bid or question.

Right place at the right time.......

mhardy6647

nspindel wrote: »

Yeah, but that's got nothing to do with eBay. You're talking here about a situation where there is a legitimate spike in demand for the HF-81. Supply remains the same, demand goes up, prices go up. That's just Econ 101.

Half-right, I'd opine. That's why I called it a 'revolutionary driver' -- eBAY ain't driving, but it is enabling. eBAY, plays a big role due to its size, scope, and fluidity. Where do you suppose 90 percent of those HF-81s get bought, sold, and/or flipped?

Pastor Bill

It may be the difference between fairly instant and delayed gratification. Some people are willing to pay more to have a desired item right now...rather than wait patiently or search for it. I probably paid more than I should for the woofers for my Fried Model Qs...but after about five weeks of searching, Ebay was the only source that I found. "He who hesitates is lost." Ebay merely exploits that human tendency to want to have things right now.

nspindel

Yes, but that's just eBay providing an efficient marketplace for the laws of economics to take hold. There is still an external factor at play here, which is that this model amp acquired a cult following, an external fanboy website, and a retro-review in Stereophile. All of that contributed to a demand spike that had nothing to do with eBay. eBay being the most liquid marketplace out there is the natural choice for sellers to go to sell that amp, and buyers to go and buy that amp, and for the laws of supply and demand to take hold. Certainly eBay provides a vehicle for sellers to keep raising prices during a buyer-frenzy, but I think that's different from the case where you have people overpaying for commodity items obtainable elsewhere, just because they get caught up in the competitive nature of the bidding process, with the desire to "win".

EndersShadow

Eh, I'd say its right place right time.

I've been watching Furman gear lately waiting for a very cheap PM model to come across the line for my bedroom setup.

In looking at prices you see the same item sell days apart for between 50-100 dollars more or less. Same condition, so its just a right place, right time, w the right buyers out there.

I look at eBay as a worldwide Mecum Auto Auction. Your open to all buyers, but buyers have to be specifically looking to be looking for what you're selling, have money to buy it, and be willing to pay at least what your asking, not to mention you've got how rare or likely the item is to come up again in the near future for sale. Not all of those items always line up.

smglbrth

soundfreak1 wrote: »

In a word..... IDIOTS....... I've wondered the same thing myself and thats the only thing that explaines it.

Yup...

Toolfan66

But there is those fake bids from said friend that spikes the bid in hopes that one of the other bidders will top it!!

Dennis Gardner

I've had many items that went for much more than I expected over the years. I also had a $2500 BIN item that sold within 30 seconds of listing before I had a chance to add an accurate description to the listing. I took an iPhone photo, listed it from the phone, and went to edit it with my desktop computer and it had sold. The buyer tried to flip it and got $200 less on auction.

I also had an item that didn't meet the reserve or BIN price of around $800 and after the auction, got a contact from a NYC buyer to buy it for $930, more than I ever asked for it a day earlier.

I actually enjoy selling in these instances, but the buyers that claim "item not as described" are on the increase and a true pain to deal with.

nspindel

Dennis Gardner wrote: »

I actually enjoy selling in these instances, but the buyers that claim "item not as described" are on the increase and a true pain to deal with.

Yes. And they prey on sellers with very high feedback, so they can threaten that they'll leave you negative feedback if you don't give them a refund. I sold a Louis Vuitton wallet that was my wife's. Took about 10 pictures of the thing, wrote a very accurate description, and it sold. Then I got the old "Item not as described" dispute. I contacted the buyer and asked "What about this is not as described? There are plenty of photos, including a photos of all the original paperwork, and I fully disclosed that the wallet was used." Never got a reply, but just issued her the refund after she sent it back because I didn't want my feedback dinged. Re-listed it without changing a thing, someone else bought it, and contacted me to tell me that she loved it and what a great seller I am. There are some really sleazy buyers out there. However, that's really got little to do with eBay. Anyone who works in retail will have plenty of stories of sleazy buyers.

Dennis Gardner

Neil, that is the precise reason that I only offer a full refund upon return and will not negotiate for condition. I pay to have extra photos and always accurately describe the item. I also don't sell items that I don't understand.

mhardy6647

nspindel wrote: »

Yes, but that's just eBay providing an efficient marketplace for the laws of economics to take hold. There is still an external factor at play here, which is that this model amp acquired a cult following, an external fanboy website, and a retro-review in Stereophile. All of that contributed to a demand spike that had nothing to do with eBay. eBay being the most liquid marketplace out there is the natural choice for sellers to go to sell that amp, and buyers to go and buy that amp, and for the laws of supply and demand to take hold. Certainly eBay provides a vehicle for sellers to keep raising prices during a buyer-frenzy, but I think that's different from the case where you have people overpaying for commodity items obtainable elsewhere, just because they get caught up in the competitive nature of the bidding process, with the desire to "win".

I think we're in that good ol' fashioned violent agreement, actually. I guess my thesis is that the 'rate and extent' (heh, the shape of the "Q function") for the price escalation for, e.g., the aforementioned HF-81 wouldn't have been as big in eBAY's absence. What conduit served eBAY's purpose before eBAY? Auction houses? Newspaper classified sections? I actually don't know.

cnh

mhardy6647 wrote: »

I think that the eBAY economy, in the steady state (i.e., absent the occasional perturbations of morons and shill bids) works like this. Let's say item X is worth $20 on the traditional garage sale/fleamarket circuit. An example of item X is put on eBAY. It attracts a few bids, including a late one for $19.75. That bid gets sniped, and the "winner" (how does earning the right to pay for a piece of used junk constitute winning? -- but I digress) gets item X for $20.50. Now, searches of complete auctions turn up one that sold for $20.50, so that becomes a perfectly reasonable price for item X. This cycle repeats a few times (perhaps hundreds, or thousands of times) and the going price for item X drifts inexorably upward to, let's say, $30... if supply remains adequate (not too many, not too few) and demand stays strong -- the price might rise further still.

There are other, less evolutionary and more revolutionary drivers, too -- related, I think, to the 'cult' mentality that the internet has exacerbated in recent years among "collectors". I am not sure if there are easy ways to trace the history of prices on eBAY for 'popular' items (there must be, right? I mean, it is the 21st Century! Jane, where's my Jetpack?!?) -- but it'd be really interesting to do so.

I think a great example would be the EICO HF-81 amplifier (a very nice stereo EL84pp integrated amp, by the way). I think I paid $220 for mine in pretty good shape on eBAY a long time ago. Later, a cult of sorts grew up around the amp, driven first by Klipsch forums member Kelly Holsten's beautifully implemented fanboy site* and later by a glowing retro-review (no pun intended) by Peter Breueninger in Stereophile**, of all places. The HF-81s tend to be a bit pricier now ;-)

* http://home.earthlink.net/~eico_hf81/
** http://www.stereophile.com/integratedamps/606eico/

nspindel wrote: »

Yeah, but that's got nothing to do with eBay. You're talking here about a situation where there is a legitimate spike in demand for the HF-81. Supply remains the same, demand goes up, prices go up. That's just Econ 101.

There is some truth in both of these ideas. But there is ANOTHER that needs to be added.

Perceived economic troughs. In other words as people "imagine" that they are being STRESSED, they ASK for more and more, convince themselves what they have is worth MORE. It's simple greed multiplied by economic anxiety. or G X EA = E-pricing.

Of course for the equation to be complete we need to include mhardy's and nspindel's "variables" in it. (MH) + (NS) + G X EA = E-Pricing

Few things in the REAL world actually work according to the fantasies promulgated in Econ. 101. Apologies to my Economics colleagues, but their's is the least scientific of all the social sciences because there is RARELY anything "social" or "historical" rendered in their seemingly "elegant" equations. And as you rise up in the field you leave the real world of PEOPLE far behind. I've been on more than ONE job search for Economists who work in China and I can assure you that I have ALWAYS been able to ask one or two questions that often "embarrass" the candidate. Something their MODEL did not think about, take into account. And it is usually something that anyone familiar with the Chinese people, their culture and history would surely know and include!

Poor Economists want so DESPERATELY to be scientific and mathematical that they sacrifice too much to achieve this. Many economic problems in the third world, for example, have rather SIMPLE non-mathematical solutions that are too POLITICAL for economists to even entertain so they ignore the OBVIOUS! lol

cnh

mhardy6647

oh. by the way, as should be quite obvious, I am seriously not an economist! My daughter is, though... :-)

Dennis Gardner

Mark, isn't it funny that even though we have experienced so much life over our years that we have forgotten how small our existence was prior to how the internet opened up so many more avenues? Hobbies literally exploded over the past 15 years.

I am amazed everyday that my daughter-in-law makes a simple post on Facebook about wanting to buy or sell an item locally and literally dozens of interested parties are there within minutes to hours of the post.

Instant world we live in.....compared to classified ads in a weekly paper that no one looked at.

cnh

mhardy6647 wrote: »

oh. by the way, as should be quite obvious, I am seriously not an economist! My daughter is, though... :-)

My son is an economist as well. But he's very familiar with my take on his field. And he limits himself to micro-economics in his practice, readily admitting that the Macro boys and girls "rarely" get it right!

cnh

mhardy6647

Dennis Gardner wrote: »

Mark, isn't it funny that even though we have experienced so much life over our years that we have forgotten how small our existence was prior to how the internet opened up so many more avenues? Hobbies literally exploded over the past 15 years.

I am amazed everyday that my daughter-in-law makes a simple post on Facebook about wanting to buy or sell an item locally and literally dozens of interested parties are there within minutes to hours of the post.

Instant world we live in.....compared to classified ads in a weekly paper that no one looked at.

I bought my very first reel to reel tape deck, a Sony TC-353D, for seventy-five smackers from an ad in the Sunday [Baltimore] Sun classifieds when I was in college :-) I looked for stereo equipment in the classifieds every Sunday for several years; wish I'd had some disposable income back then!

sucks2beme

It's an auction. The winner is the only guy who thinks it was worth that much.
Repeat that a few times and this is what happens. Then at some point
people decide it's over priced and you can't give it away.
Think Stock prices

Nightfall

So the OP Yamaha in question sold for $405 plus $45 shipping. That's friggin nuts! Almost as nuts as selling a CA-2010 for $1900, what are these people smoking?! I'm going to keep an eye on the 2010 to see if someone actually pays that...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/YAMAHA-CA-2010-INTEGRATED-AMPLIFIER-/281405902815?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item4185194fdf

I'm going to have a tech look over my CA-1010, left channel is spotty when using it's own preamp. If I use it as a power amp it works fine. Should be a pretty cheap fix and I think there is no better time to try and sell it than now. I wouldn't normally but I need to pay back a large loan. I hope someone with a fat wallet comes by after I put it up for auction.

quicksilvergts

Yeah that is crazy. As a ebayer myself buy/sell, I am noticing more and more bogus deals.
A lot of the time people will bid a auction listing much higher than one with a "buy it now" or "auction"
With a return policy from a A rated seller. Instead they will pay much more for a non-return item
And the seller will have very recent negitive feedback.

Makes me giggle and pissed of at the same time lol. Especially if I want to bid on it lil

Cheers!

tonyb

cnh wrote: »

There is some truth in both of these ideas. But there is ANOTHER that needs to be added.

Perceived economic troughs. In other words as people "imagine" that they are being STRESSED, they ASK for more and more, convince themselves what they have is worth MORE. It's simple greed multiplied by economic anxiety. or G X EA = E-pricing.

Of course for the equation to be complete we need to include mhardy's and nspindel's "variables" in it. (MH) + (NS) + G X EA = E-Pricing

Few things in the REAL world actually work according to the fantasies promulgated in Econ. 101. Apologies to my Economics colleagues, but their's is the least scientific of all the social sciences because there is RARELY anything "social" or "historical" rendered in their seemingly "elegant" equations. And as you rise up in the field you leave the real world of PEOPLE far behind. I've been on more than ONE job search for Economists who work in China and I can assure you that I have ALWAYS been able to ask one or two questions that often "embarrass" the candidate. Something their MODEL did not think about, take into account. And it is usually something that anyone familiar with the Chinese people, their culture and history would surely know and include!

Poor Economists want so DESPERATELY to be scientific and mathematical that they sacrifice too much to achieve this. Many economic problems in the third world, for example, have rather SIMPLE non-mathematical solutions that are too POLITICAL for economists to even entertain so they ignore the OBVIOUS! lol

cnh

Ya know I love ya pal, but what on earth are you talking about ? lol

Economist are all about numbers and math, trends based on historical data. Theories that have been time tested and proven, and others that haven't. You relate, or seem to, the failures of certain economic theories as failures in the theories themselves, not the implementation of those theories by unscrupulous people. Which as long as we are talking people as in social issues, you will always have an element of society that no economic theory will help. You will also have an element of society that will base itself on greed and power, regardless of the economic theories at play. Thus the outcome of economic theories are largely based on those willing to adhere to those particular principles, which rarely happens and taints that theories name plate. It is the people in charge of implementing any particular economic theory that guides it's success or failure....generally speaking of course because there are some bad economic theories out there.

Granted, I'll give you not every successful economic theory will work in all parts of the world. The world is in a constant state of flux and adjustments need to be made along the way to assure stability in world markets/economies. I'll also grant you politics unfortunately stands in the way for many countries over economic development.

A products worth is deemed what someone is willing to pay for it. If nobody bought cars for 50k a pop, ya think next year that value might fall to 40k ? The laws of supply and demand are time tested and true to form, your not suggesting otherwise, are you ?

As far as economist being the LEAST scientific.....I would argue that economist are right more times in their predictions of market fluctuations, results of certain policies and their effects on economies, than actual real scientists are about predicting global warming.

cnh

tonyb wrote: »

Ya know I love ya pal, but what on earth are you talking about ? lol

Economist are all about numbers and math, trends based on historical data. Theories that have been time tested and proven, and others that haven't. You relate, or seem to, the failures of certain economic theories as failures in the theories themselves, not the implementation of those theories by unscrupulous people. Which as long as we are talking people as in social issues, you will always have an element of society that no economic theory will help. You will also have an element of society that will base itself on greed and power, regardless of the economic theories at play. Thus the outcome of economic theories are largely based on those willing to adhere to those particular principles, which rarely happens and taints that theories name plate. It is the people in charge of implementing any particular economic theory that guides it's success or failure....generally speaking of course because there are some bad economic theories out there.

Granted, I'll give you not every successful economic theory will work in all parts of the world. The world is in a constant state of flux and adjustments need to be made along the way to assure stability in world markets/economies. I'll also grant you politics unfortunately stands in the way for many countries over economic development.

A products worth is deemed what someone is willing to pay for it. If nobody bought cars for 50k a pop, ya think next year that value might fall to 40k ? The laws of supply and demand are time tested and true to form, your not suggesting otherwise, are you ?

As far as economist being the LEAST scientific.....I would argue that economist are right more times in their predictions of market fluctuations, results of certain policies and their effects on economies, than actual real scientists are about predicting global warming.

Not only have I attended countless talks by Economists with Ph.D.s in recent years. I also have a rather deep knowledge of Chinese history, language and culture. And I can assure you that most Economists who work in China do NOT have a clue!

You have a "belief" that Economists study history, but they really don't know much about the "complexity" of historical variables and most current theory is an apologetic for major transgressions by, well let's not go there.

The WORST of the group are those who delve into Development Economics without any acknowledgement of power relations and surplus extraction and dependency with the very countries they attempt to apply their FIRST WORLD models to (which have NO real value for these nations--we've been doing this at least since Rostow and Modernization Theory divided the world in the three? Rostow's ideas have merely been reframed and resurfaced as Neo-liberalism, the kind we're trying to spread everywhere regardless of culture and historical context.

And most American programs in Economics are more and more and more an education in ABSTRACT MATHEMATICAL models. I have that first hand from friends whose sons and daughters are in the most advanced Ph.D. programs in the U.S. Their children, if they have any critical perspective lament how abstract and REMOVED these mostly advanced mathematics are. Heck, my own son who graduated No.1 in his college class in Economics can't follow this NEW MATH! And, job candidates for Economics positions have their colleagues salivating over the beauty of their MODELS (not the reality or usefulness of them). As I said above, I have ABSOLUTELY no PROBLEM bringing DOWN the BEST models in my field (China) to the absolute shock and embarrassment of my Economic colleagues. It's child's play, in fact. Because most of these people have never seen a Chinese village, are not as familiar as they should be with the last 150 years of Chinese society and most are "apologists" for Western Economic theories they think are the TOTAL solution to Chinese problems?

Stop believing all the "rhetoric" about the pragmatic nature of economics and take a look at some Grad School catalogs and courses. Rather than the talking heads on the Business channels who are really "wonderful comics".

Prediction in the field is pretty piss poor, actually, not because what goes on in the market is merely an outcome of all the individual transactions but precisely because there is so much variability and IRRATIONALITY in the market. Even the classic models don't work properly. Too much noise here.

But, you are certainly free to keep believing what you do. My lived experience tells me otherwise.

cnh

tonyb

cnh wrote: »

Not only have I attended countless talks by Economists with Ph.D.s in recent years. I also have a rather deep knowledge of Chinese history, language and culture. And I can assure you that most Economists who work in China do NOT have a clue!

You have a "belief" that Economists study history, but they really don't know much about the "complexity" of historical variables and most current theory is an apologetic for major transgressions by, well let's not go there.

The WORST of the group are those who delve into Development Economics without any acknowledgement of power relations and surplus extraction and dependency with the very countries they attempt to apply their FIRST WORLD models to (which have NO real value for these nations--we've been doing this at least since Rostow and Modernization Theory divided the world in the three? Rostow's ideas have merely been reframed and resurfaced as Neo-liberalism, the kind we're trying to spread everywhere regardless of culture and historical context.

And most American programs in Economics are more and more and more an education in ABSTRACT MATHEMATICAL models. I have that first hand from friends whose sons and daughters are in the most advanced Ph.D. programs in the U.S. Their children, if they have any critical perspective lament how abstract and REMOVED these mostly advanced mathematics are. Heck, my own son who graduated No.1 in his college class in Economics can't follow this NEW MATH! And, job candidates for Economics positions have their colleagues salivating over the beauty of their MODELS (not the reality or usefulness of them). As I said above, I have ABSOLUTELY no PROBLEM bringing DOWN the BEST models in my field (China) to the absolute shock and embarrassment of my Economic colleagues. It's child's play, in fact. Because most of these people have never seen a Chinese village, are not as familiar as they should be with the last 150 years of Chinese society and most are "apologists" for Western Economic theories they think are the TOTAL solution to Chinese problems?

Stop believing all the "rhetoric" about the pragmatic nature of economics and take a look at some Grad School catalogs and courses. Rather than the talking heads on the Business channels who are really "wonderful comics".

Prediction in the field is pretty piss poor, actually, not because what goes on in the market is merely an outcome of all the individual transactions but precisely because there is so much variability and IRRATIONALITY in the market. Even the classic models don't work properly. Too much noise here.

But, you are certainly free to keep believing what you do. My lived experience tells me otherwise.

cnh

Some of that I can go along with, but your equating economic theory to social movement, too many variables in that to fault one theory or another. As far as what works in China....western economic theories, like I said not all theories will work inside a given political system.

Also, some economic theories are based on social movement, or lack there of, on purpose. Except it gets so convoluted that it really isn't an economic theory anymore and becomes more of a controlling factor.

The differences I see, is reality is far separated from what is taught in books. Unless we grasp how the real world works, what the means to the ends are, no book or college course can decipher the rights and wrongs of economic theory. They can guide you, throw in culture and histories and formulate a customized economic path forward, but until it's put into practical use and principles adhered to, means little.

We can talk about this for pages....but, what does this all have to do with an Ebay listing ? LOL
God forbid you and I ever sit down together, we'd need a bar that's open 24/7 because we'd never shut up.

sucks2beme

Guys- it's not rocket science. People get all caught up in winning, as opposed to thinking about it.
I bid on ebay on a lot of stuff. And win very little. I set limits, and most of the stuff I've been
bidding on has gone crazy. 40 year old stereo gear that's never been serviced isn't worth
$1000. I can buy modern gear that beats it hands down when you hit those ranges.
Once in a while you find a perfect one that has been restored. But the $5 finds they
wipe off and put on ebay, no thanks.

jgwinett

When I use eBay it is usually because I need something that I can't find locally. Or just plain convience. I have have gotten some awesome gear cheap over the years there, that is getting harder to do as often now. I wait months sometimes but I usually always come out ahead. (Then there are those "I want that now" times.)