Let's talk senses.

EndersShadow

And he's living proof of his statement

audiocr381ve

ZLTFUL wrote: »

I think I am going to start bumping this post every single time someone starts or runs with a cable thread that degenerates into "You can't hear differences because I can't..."

The argument between both the "you don't hear it" and the "yes I do hear it" crowd was never "red is better than blue." We all have our preferences. I like sushi and some don't.

If I were to think about this from a video perspective, things are pretty black and white (no pun). I own a little video production studio and I wear a lot of hats. One of which is color correcting and color grading footage. We use calibrated video monitors to ensure accuracy. This process can't accurately and repeatedly be done by eye. We absolutely have to use video scopes to evaluate the footage to check for color balance, saturation, exposure, etc. So if John Doe were to tell me that he saw deeper blacks through one Blu-ray player over another, I'd simply look at my video scopes and measure whether or not John's senses were accurate. I could show John that there was zero difference in what he's seeing and he could argue day and night that I'm wrong. John could go about his merry way thinking he saw deeper blacks, but he'd be emphatically WRONG.

Will John enjoy Blu-ray player X more if he believes the blacks are blacker? Probably. Will he see what he wants at the end of the day? Yep. Is he wrong for doing that? No, he's just human.

The point is, we have to arrive at a place where we understand how fickle the human mind is. Both sensory wise and emotionally. For example, some days I hate sushi and some days I love it.

In my eyes the "you don't hear it" crowd has a hard time understanding where most of the happiness comes from in this hobby. It's from experimenting, trying something new, evaluating, and most importantly, getting a shiny new toy and seeing if it lives up to your expectations. There is an innocence in that. In a lot of ways we're just like women who obsess over finding the perfect purse to compliment the perfect outfit. There is nothing wrong with it either if you're not drowning in debt or being irresponsible with your money.

The "yes I do hear it" crowd has a hard time accepting that there are some things that cannot be argued. If you can see deeper blacks, show me how and prove it. They will go to war with the other crowd but at the end of the day they have no real firepower. It doesn't matter how intelligent of an answer you could give to support your claims if you can't back it up in a real world test. I personally think it's a waste of time though. People are so damn stubborn that they'll leave an ABX test, be proven wrong, and still hold on to their beliefs.

I don't like when people think they're god's gift to the hifi community. Like their perspective is the ultimate perspecitve. The problem with being surrounded by a community of people that share the same beliefs as you is that it makes it extremely difficult to hear a different angle. Each side has a herd of morons who support each other, go to war on these subjects, and there is very little room for growth. This forum absolutely suffers from a herd of morons who go to great lengths to prove their point and could give two s h i t s about creating an environment were healthy discussions happen.

ZLTFUL

I respect your post but in the end, what John sees is all that really matters isn't it? I mean to me, my perfectly calibrated panel looks great but to a couple of people who came through my house recently, they stated that it looked "too vibrant".
I can't tell them they are right or wrong based on what the scope told me. To them, that was their truth plain and simple.

Going back to your example of John and the Blu-Ray player, I would postulate that neither is actually wrong. Your scope is right and John is right. To *his* eyes, the blacks are indeed deeper regardless of what your scope says. But your scope is right based on a very black and white definition of the science. But let's take it a step further...we are trying to use a black and white explanation for something that is chock full of grey areas (our senses).

Each brain is different. Each brain processes senses differently. I know people who can "smell" colors. At first, it made absolutely no sense to me because I kept applying the black and white definitions of the senses to their postulation. In the end, I realized, not everyone experiences senses the same way so why *couldn't* that person actually "smell" colors. Yes, a lot of it is personal bias and can be effected by everything from how you were raised to what kind of a day you are having but in the end, is it really wrong because they perceive something different from you or from the definitions of science?

My argument has *never* been about who is right or who is wrong in these conversations (and I use the term loosely) but it is always about realizing that *your* way isn't the only way and you should always accept that there are things out there that can't be explained by a very square box of thinking.

11tsteve

My reality is that the rig in my sig is the best audio system I have ever had, and it only exists because the wisdom, experience, and exposure to options which I have gained from listening to folks here.
When I joined Polk in 2012, I had a dirty sounding NAD 1020/2150 combo with an aged pair of RTA 11T that sounded like mud.
I had just learned from a computer forum that I could hook up a device to my computer (a DAC?) and listen to music files, but that was about as far as guidance there could take me....

Everything I have learned here has headed me in the direction of being open, and almost more importantly, being unafraid.

The willingness to know there are different and better (for me) audio experiences has helped me to learn how to rework Xovers, reveneer enclosures, that not everything that sounds good needs to cost a lot (my Keces), music file resolution, playback software (wow I don't miss Itunes), and that the ones who really know also like to share.

I have worked my way up the chain based on the advice, and ears, of those here.... and learning what sounds good in my room to my own ears.
And really, it was just that simple.

tonyb

11tsteve wrote: »

I have worked my way up the chain based on the advice, and ears, of those here.... and learning what sounds good in my room to my own ears.
And really, it was just that simple.

....and your right, it is just that simple. Key is to be unafraid to experiment a tad with what your own wallet allows, and use your ears as your guide. Kudos to you, obviously your musical enjoyment has expanded.

audiocr381ve

ZLTFUL wrote: »

I respect your post but in the end, what John sees is all that really matters isn't it? I mean to me, my perfectly calibrated panel looks great but to a couple of people who came through my house recently, they stated that it looked "too vibrant".
I can't tell them they are right or wrong based on what the scope told me. To them, that was their truth plain and simple.

Going back to your example of John and the Blu-Ray player, I would postulate that neither is actually wrong. Your scope is right and John is right. To *his* eyes, the blacks are indeed deeper regardless of what your scope says. But your scope is right based on a very black and white definition of the science. But let's take it a step further...we are trying to use a black and white explanation for something that is chock full of grey areas (our senses).

Each brain is different. Each brain processes senses differently. I know people who can "smell" colors. At first, it made absolutely no sense to me because I kept applying the black and white definitions of the senses to their postulation. In the end, I realized, not everyone experiences senses the same way so why *couldn't* that person actually "smell" colors. Yes, a lot of it is personal bias and can be effected by everything from how you were raised to what kind of a day you are having but in the end, is it really wrong because they perceive something different from you or from the definitions of science?

My argument has *never* been about who is right or who is wrong in these conversations (and I use the term loosely) but it is always about realizing that *your* way isn't the only way and you should always accept that there are things out there that can't be explained by a very square box of thinking.

Nothing but respect for your views as well ZLTFUL.

Back to the example of John. I clearly see your point. You're saying he is ultimately judge and jury for whether or not the blacks are actually blacker. The problem with this is that it doesn't hold up that well if we shift the context. And just to be clear, I'm on the "use your ears" side but I'm very aware of my inherent shortcomings when evaluating audio gear.

You said: "is it really wrong because they perceive something different from you or from the definitions of science?"

Yes, absolutely and specifically when it comes to delivering information to others. Now if we shift the context and I were seeking someone's opinion on a piece of art which was made for the viewer to discover meaning, than NO, it would not be wrong. We can perceive art any way we want to perceive it.

Let's shift the context again. If John told me that he perceived an ant to be bigger and stronger than an elephant, and he then were to lead me to believe that I should choose to ride the ant across the jungle rather than the elephant, that would create problems for me. If I asked him to prove how it would be a smarter decision for me to ride the ant and his argument was a passionate belief that came from the way he perceived the two, that would create problems.

John was asked to deliver information and what he gave me was absolutely inaccurate and flat out wrong, and because people are like sheep and follow the leader, he could potentially lead a lot of people astray with his perceptions. If John were to hold this belief that ants were bigger than elephants in the context of his own home where it did not affect others, than fine. He's crazy as hell but whatever makes him happy.

The funny thing is that I'm absolutely not on the "measurements are all that matters" side. Because technically tubes shouldn't sound better than transistors on paper but I think they do. But even in this instance, science supports my findings. It says that there is harmonic distortion being added to the signal so I can absolutely pinpoint why I like it. I like the distortion.

Nothing but love and respect for you guys.

ZLTFUL

This is what I mean when I say that we can have good conversation without pissing contests.
Shane, thank you for your addition to this post as I think it actually gets my point across perfectly.
Yes, we have differing views and context can change any argument. But we can also discuss those differences without it becoming an argument.

Your tube example is a perfect example. A lot of people love the sound of tubes. They aren't wrong for doing so. But when you bring science into the mix, tubes aren't supposed to sound better than transistors. But I will be darned if I don't think a tube pre mixed with a solid state amp isn't a sweet sounding combination.

cfrizz

ZLTFUL wrote: »

I will be the first to admit that I get frustrated with others. But the part that frustrates me is closed mindedness. I encounter it every day in my workplace. I have folks who have done something the same way for 15 years and when they are told to try it another way, they are so set in their ways that they don't realize that the new way is more efficient and faster. It is just "different" and therefore it can't be better.

I have come across this in the workplace as well. However, you BETTER be open minded and flexible in the workplace especially since you all have to work together and what you do or don't do may impact your coworker.

This is certainly not true about this hobby. It is up to each and every individual to decide what they want, what they want to spend, etc. When they decide enough is enough and it is good enough then that is that.

Not everyone is as into it as others. I know I'm not. I might not have the latest and greatest, but it is more than I ever thought I would have and I enjoy it immensely.

I believe in putting the majority of my money into the gear. I upgraded to BJC for my ICs and have a bunch of various brands for my speaker cables. All sound better than what they give you in the box when you purchase the gear. As far as I'm concerned it's good enough.

Those of you who want to keep searching and spending have at it, if it makes a positive improvement for you that's great.

Is it possible that if I bought something more expensive I might hear an improvement? Of course it is, but I'm not interested in spending that kind of money for wires when what I have now sounds just fine to me.

That is not being closed minded, it just means I'm not interested in endlessly looking for small improvements for lots of money. Or interested in constantly playing around with what I have now. I'd just rather be listening to and enjoy my system with my own two ears.

And that's the bottom line. So long as my ears are happy, what you hear with your system doesn't matter to me and what I hear with my system shouldn't matter to you.

Certainly not enough to start putting other people down simply because they disagree with what you said, and following them all over the board to insult them every time they make a post. It reflects badly on those who do it and the board in general.

Live and let live, and we will all be happier.

F1nut

Certainly not enough to start putting other people down simply because they disagree with what you said, and following them all over the board to insult them every time they make a post. It reflects badly on those who do it and the board in general.

Your prespective on that matter is seriously skewed.

BlueFox

It is one thing to say, "I would never spend 'X' dollars on a cable", versus saying 'You are just imagining the cable sounds better, and have been fooled by marketing." The first is a valid comment. The second is a veiled insult.

ZLTFUL

Cathy, Bud hits the nail on the head. The "naysayers" always talk about how the differences are imagined or placebo and that you are stupid for spending *your* money however *you* see fit.

Your live and let live statement is all well and good in an idyllic fantasy la la land but there are people who just can't accept that others *may* have it better off than they do whether it be financially, acoustically or otherwise.
Me...I don't begrudge Donald Trump or Warren Buffet or Bill Gates for having more/better than I do. They worked a lot harder than I am willing to do and had better ideas. C 'est La vie.

tonyb

cfrizz wrote: »

[
That is not being closed minded, it just means I'm not interested in endlessly looking for small improvements for lots of money. Or interested in constantly playing around with what I have now. I'd just rather be listening to and enjoy my system with my own two ears.

And that's the bottom line. So long as my ears are happy, what you hear with your system doesn't matter to me and what I hear with my system shouldn't matter to you.

.

Nothing wrong with that Cath, we always maintain that if your happy with what ya have, rock on. However some aren't and seek some guidance. That's what audio forums are for isn't it ? Share experiences, offer suggestions ?

Except we are all limited in our experiences, some more than others, so the advice given will vary under any particular situation. No shame in any of that, it is what it is. Some have just been exposed to more audio related stuff than others. It's only human nature to explore the unexplored. I'm sure most were perfectly happy with the horse and buggy too, imagine if we just stopped exploring there ?

voltz

^^^^
Nicely said Tony!

I didn't have the experience many of you have had, so I have used what you people have said to me and then made my own choices in what I was willing to try and its been a very nice experience that has given me a joy of Audio I would never have had if not for this board and its members!

I was smart enough to trust in what I read to make a sound decision on what to try!

Ohh and thanks everyone what what has been a great ride! and it ain't over yet, my new plans are to tear down my 10x20 day room and turn it into a 20x20 2 channel room after dropping a few trees and filling in a pond I have with a fountain in it.

BlueFox

This is an interesting read from a speaker designer (Siegfried Linkwitz), and he touches on a number of audio areas, and their affect on the audio illusion of stereo.

One quote from the speakers and room interaction that appears relevant to recent discussions.

"Books have been published. I mention just two:
Floyd Toole, Sound Reproduction and
Peter Damaske, Acoustics and Hearing

Much has been investigated & understood
It has influenced the shape of loudspeakers
It has improved the integration of different size drivers

Having read much of the published material I come away with the conclusions

Psycho-acoustics research deals with difficult to study multi-parameter problems
The signal processor between the ears has evolved for survival and is not easily fooled
The signal processor between the ears is adaptive, learns & has memory
Hearing in reflective and reverberant spaces is not fully understood."

http://www.linkwitzlab.com/ALMA'14/Sound_quality.htm