7.2 or 9.2?

Talon_Sr

I've been looking at upgrading my receiver and found this. It's advertised as a 7.2ch receiver, but it has speaker outs for Front/Height/Wide. So would this not also be used or capable of being used as a 9.2ch, rather than using the outs for another zone? Will these outs receive different channel information. I have to admit this receiver has a lot of features and power for what they want "new-in-the-box".

Tornado Red

I believe the 1123 is 7.2. Check out Pioneer's web site, the height/wide connections are separated on the 9.2 models. Pioneer receivers are well regarded, I wouldn't let 7.2 stop me from picking one up if you like the price and features.

Talon_Sr

Thanks for the reply. Yeah, I know that it's listed as a 7.2, but do you see the separate Front Height/Wide speaker outs in the lower right corner of the receiver? Why would they label them as such if these were nothing more than a clone of the Fronts outputs for a zone 2 application? So you think that the audio info coming out of these is not intended for Front height ambience? Check this out and tell me how many speakers do you see hooked up here. This is from the 1123 user's manual.

EndersShadow

It "might" be that it can do 9.2 but only provides 7.2 channels of amplification, meaning you need to provide a amp for the other 2 channels. I think some of the Pio models do this.

Talon_Sr

Hi ES, can you check my last post to see the speaker diagram from the manual, and confirm that you would need a separate amp for these? Also, why would they give you speaker outs if you needed an external amp for these? Wouldn't they just give you RCA pre-outs? The external power amp would have the speaker outs.

EndersShadow

Page 18 of the manual:

It is not possible to produce sound from simultaneously from the front height speakers and surround back speakers.

So its either one or the other.

Talon_Sr

Aww, ok I see it now. Damn, well for the power this has and the Network ready features for only $350 new (not refurb), I think I'll still grab one. Thanks EndersShadow.

EndersShadow

Talon_Sr wrote: »

Aww, ok I see it now. Damn, well for the power this has and the Network ready features for only $350 new (not refurb), I think I'll still grab one. Thanks EndersShadow.

Its all good. TBH most folks layouts are right for either heights or rear surrounds, but not both....

Plus I am going to be honest, I am over the "more speaker the better" concept. Since movies are at least mastered for 7.1 now I am cool with 7 speakers. Adding height requires additional DSP and many movies don't really have what you need (helicopters coming down, ect) to utilize them right.

So for me while my next AVR will have the ability to do heights/wides/rear surrounds with amp power behind them, I am going to stick with my 5.1 setup for now and shoot to add 2 in-ceiling speakers for rear surrounds at some point, but still not sure if I will as they may be just too close to my side surrounds to make it work.

Talon_Sr

Then what about the Bi-amping option of this receiver for a 5.2 bi-amped setup on page 19? Would you go that way with this receiver for a better 5.2 system?

Hermitism

The opinion here is bi-amping with a receiver does no good because of the shared power supply. Current is just as important as the WPC. It's more less a sales gimmick. True bi-amping requires two separate external amps and an external crossover.

Talon_Sr

Ok, thanks Herm. And where would they post the current in the specs for an AVR, next to WPC? And what values are better?

EndersShadow

Talon_Sr wrote: »

Ok, thanks Herm. And where would they post the current in the specs for an AVR, next to WPC? And what values are better?

They wont . If they do you want higher current normally, but it also depends on the design of the amplifiers how much current they need to deliver the specific wattage they promise...... They dont want you to see the "real" numbers because they fudge on the high side with wattage. That said PIONEER in general is MUCH closer to their listed spec's compared to Onkyo, Denon, Yamaha, etc....

I would google and see what folks out there are saying and see if you can find some reviews that list all channels driven. Manual is going to list 2 channels driven which will be a higher number. More speakers from same pool of wattage = less wattage per speaker.

I have spent the past 2 years researching AVR's to use with my LSi's because they cant be driven by just ANY AVR.

Pioneer is the ONLY one that can drive my speakers without a dedicated amp. Well technically the Anthem MRX-710 can (or according to the manufacture they think it can) but its outside what I want to spend.

Hermitism

Here is an example of how important current is. I have an old early to mid 80's Pioneer receiver rated at 45WPC. It's a small unit, but when you pick it up, it's like a heavy tank. Last year I purchased an entry level Denon AVR rated at twice the WPC, which I didn't keep long, but it was light as a feather and seemed less powerful than that old Pio. Most of the weight from that old Pio was coming from the power supply...I think. And the Pio I have now is about 41 pounds.

Talon_Sr

ES, Herm, & ne1, how much of improvement, in your opinion, does D3 amplification bring to the table? I mean some of these Pioneers are touting this? And is it pretty well standard with high end amps nowadays?


Also @ES: wouldn't I get the current specs in the "white sheet" if that's available online?

EndersShadow

Talon_Sr wrote: »

ES, Herm, & ne1, how much of improvement, in your opinion, does D3 amplification bring to the table? I mean some of these Pioneers are touting this? And is it pretty well standard with high end amps nowadays?

D3 amplification is fairly UNCOMMON in AVR's hence Pioneer touting it. Most other AVR's are not using it (until you get to the ones more expensive than Pioneer). You will also hear about ICE power, same type of amplification. Very good.

Pio is the best brand right now until you get into the NAD, Cambridge Audio, etc pricepoint. And most of those AVR's have some sort of limiting factor that the Pioneer doesnt.

Talon_Sr wrote: »

Also @ES: wouldn't I get the current specs in the "white sheet" if that's available online?

Probably, but I doubt Pioneer will list it.

What you really want is the all channels driven measurements. Thats what really matters so you know what your actually getting per speaker if you use all the connections they have.

Talon_Sr

EndersShadow wrote: »

They wont . If they do you want higher current normally, but it also depends on the design of the amplifiers how much current they need to deliver the specific wattage they promise......

But wouldn't the more efficient amp require less current to reach the stated output and therefore you could not determine the quality of the amp based on current specs alone? A new design of amplification (say the D3) may be very efficient and so its stated output may actually be on the undervalued side?

Talon_Sr

EndersShadow wrote: »

What you really want is the all channels driven measurements. Thats what really matters so you know what your actually getting per speaker if you use all the connections they have.

Btw, the specs on the 1123 are showing only one channel driven and THAT was into 6ohms rather than 8, so it would be even less into 8. So most mfg.ers are gonna use the FTC specification of continuous, 20-20k, and into 8 ohms with 2 ch driven, correct?

Hermitism

When I first joined here and was looking into buying a receiver. The Pio SC models were recommended to me. Once I saw their prices on Pioneer's website, I said NO WAY! I had no idea AVR's could cost that much. But the money I was willing to spend wasn't going to get me anything but an entry level unit. If you are wiling to take a chance on buying something without a warranty, the used market can be your best friend. I got my Pio SC 7.1 channel, with a class D ICE amp used for $300 on Craigslist. But I had to make an afternoon road trip to get it. It's been completely trouble free. It's only a 2008 model, but I'd take it over anything else that costs that much new. It has so much power for my needs. Nothing but clean sound at the volume levels I use it for.

Talon_Sr

Wow, this is interesting. Now that I put my current AVR (Pioneer VSX-1018AH-k) specs next to the VSX-1123, the 1018 actually has better, less noisy output! I'm surprised.

Talon_Sr

Herm, take a look at the 1123 feature set and specs and tell me if you thinks that's a great deal for $350.

Hermitism

I think you should list the speakers that you plan to use and let someone here who has those speakers comment on if they are a hard speaker to drive and if the 1123 will suffice. I remember you saying you bought some Monitor 75T's recently, unless I'm mixing you up with someone else. I think the monitors are supposed to be easy to drive.

Talon_Sr

Well for any average mid-range speaker system. But I'm using 75t's front. I'm not talking about the perfect match. Just best bang for your buck consideration.

Talon_Sr

The next step up looks like the SC-1523. You get more power and the D3 amp. But is over twice the price of the 1123 worth it?

txcoastal1

1523-The built in amp section is a lot better and will provide more versatility with speakers without adding an amp.
1523-If you ever want to add amp it provides pre-outs for all channels
1523-If you ever sell the unit it will sell faster having D3 and full pre-out
IMHO-this is the route I would go

1123-Cheaper
1123-Does have pre-out for front to channels which is good especially if you want 5.1 or higher for HT,

Talon_Sr

txcoastal1 wrote: »

1523-The built in amp section is a lot better and will provide more versatility with speakers without adding an amp.
1523-If you ever want to add amp it provides pre-outs for all channels
1523-If you ever sell the unit it will sell faster having D3 and full pre-out
IMHO-this is the route I would go

1123-Cheaper
1123-Does have pre-out for front to channels which is good especially if you want 5.1 or higher for HT,

Yes, preamp outs on all channels on the 1123 also. Ooops, sorry I see you mentioned that as well. So what do you think? Is the 1523 at $800 a better buy than the 1123 at $350?

Ooops, man I really gotta skim these posts better. I see you'd go with the 1523

txcoastal1

Unless you are looking at a different 1123 the 1123 only has pre-outs for front 2-chnls and subwoofer

Which is not a bad thing because they are the ones you need to provide more pwr too

Talon_Sr

Yep, you're right, only for front two. The 1523 is starting to look better. I'm not really into the internet features as I got most of them on my Oppo. But 4K ready/upscaling, 3D, and the SABRE32 DAC is making the 1523 more future proof.

Hermitism

Another deciding factor would be your listening habits. I know you don't live in an apartment, but if you did, you could go with a low powered unit. It wouldn't have the punch at lower levels that a more powerful one would. Room size matters too. I listen to music at a lower level, but when it comes to movies, I like the theater experience...higher volume. And it's going to be pushing more speakers than when I use it for 2 channel music. If you are someone that wants to be able to hold a conversation without yelling while watching a movie, that extra power may be a waste. But even at a lower level, when something exciting happens in a movie and there is a sudden punch to your speakers, that extra power sounds better imo. Most important, you never want your amp to strain by over-driving it, that's when it starts to sound bad.

Talon_Sr

Tru-dat, Herm. I think that if I go with the 1523, I'd like to at least try the 7.2 with biamp-ed fronts setup just to see if it sounds better. Thanks for the help.

Tornado Red

I'm also running the Monitor 75t as fronts (with the 25c as center). I have the Pio SC-61 in a 7.2 set up and after some time decided to go with a 3 channel amp for the front 3 and let the Pioneer do the 4 surrounds. No regrets for making that move, it made the 75's and 25 better and I'm all set power wise if I want to trade up in speakers down the road. I'd definitely look at the Pioneers with pre outs across the board. Hard to future proof in this business, but having MC pre-outs will help for a HT/hybrid type system.

Talon_Sr

Tornado Red wrote: »

I'm also running the Monitor 75t as fronts (with the 25c as center). I have the Pio SC-61 in a 7.2 set up and after some time decided to go with a 3 channel amp for the front 3 and let the Pioneer do the 4 surrounds. No regrets for making that move, it made the 75's and 25 better and I'm all set power wise if I want to trade up in speakers down the road. I'd definitely look at the Pioneers with pre outs across the board. Hard to future proof in this business, but having MC pre-outs will help for a HT/hybrid type system.

Which three-channel amp was that, TR? Sounds like a nice setup.