Pioneer ELite SC-68 vs NAD T187 pre and T977 amp
mantis
Posts: 17,194
Hello all,
I have had NAD separates for a few months now, I recently hooked back up my SC-68 to hear all the differences I have been experiencing with the NAD gear and then did a head to head as I thought it was a pretty close race.
When I first got the NAD gear and Installed it. I noticed a few things about it that I really thought was better then the Elite. Power was the first thing. The amp is rated at 140 watts by 7 but it performs more like a 200+ by 7. It's got power for days and incredible Dynamic range. More then the Elite does at all volumes. The Elite is no slouch here as it's one of the very best dynamic range receives I have ever owned , It even rivals my B&K AVR.
Sound quality wise I thought it also was pretty close as watching movies and TV shows really didn't seem to improve greatly. It was small things like dynamic range ability at higher volumes , slightly more clear on certain high action sounding scenes and that was about it. For movie watching I didn't think the NAD was worth it's cost vs the Elite. Yeah it was slightly better but no where near the cost to get there.
You have to consider retail pricing in what the Elite cost vs the NAD plus the IC's you have to purchase not to mention 3 power cords instead of just 1( EXTERNAL DAC)
So If I was only using my system for movies and TV , I don't think buying the NAD gear would warrant the extra cost. I'm kinda on the fence with this as any improvement to me is worth it but when I think about how much more you have to spend to get very little is absolutely not worth it. If I had harder to drive speakers or even higher end speakers then I could see more value.
So honestly with my speakers ( Definitive Technology Mythos ST mains and Mythos 10's surrounds and center) The Elite really does the job and does it extremely well. It doesn't out perform the NAD gear but it's damn close and for the money it destroys it.
Now Music
This is where the NAD starts to really pull away. When I first did the swap I thought that the NAD was just a slight improvement over the Elite for music until I put the Elite back in. I listen to music a few different ways. I basically use my Macbook Pro as my music server. I have all my CD's ripped onto the hard drive in Apple Losses and also have a small collection in High Res which I have to use Pure Music running behind iTunes so I can use USB out to drive a DAC to 24 bit 192. iTunes alone can't play Flac files or high Res music. From what I understand Apple is changing that but currently I need my Pure Music software.
With the NAD, I have to use a External DAC so I picked up a 1050 NAD which is damn fantastic for the money. The Elite has a built in USB DAC which was the first of it's kind when it came out. I'll be honest I was blown away how good the Elite is with it's internal DAC as I have compared it to many other External DAC's and to be fair used the Elite in analog bypass to compare and the internal DAC did amazingly well again Stand alone models up over $1000.00.
The NAD with the External DAC is warm inviting and clear. Again the Dynamics here are effortless and beautiful. Every single note breath cymbal strike and drum beat comes across with clarity and realism. Nothing gets left behind or leaves you wanting more IMO anyway. My Mythos ST's never sounded this good on the Elite playing music. Not to mention the NAD gear really seems to bring out the very best the Mythos has to offer. Sandy Gross is always talking about how damn good the Mythos line is ( or was since he moved on and started another company) and using higher end electronic on them will only unlock more of the beauty they have to offer.
Well he is (was) right. Over the years I have considered upgrading my speaker package to B&W or Klipsch Reference but I knew the Mythos's still had something more to bring to me. They really when listening to music with the NAD running them.
So what's a man to do at this point? Keep the NAD , sell the Elite and life a happy life? Take back the NAD , use that money and try out the NAD receiver in the T787 to see if it retains most of the beauty of the separates for an amazingly less of a shot to the wallet?
Forget about NAD and hopefully one day actually build the basement theater and 2 channel rooms and have 2 entirely different systems one for music and one for movies?
Right now I'm deep involved in the Wire demo with MIT, I'll be posting my results when I'm finished on the official already started MIT wire demo thread. So all this swapping out gear and wires has been a lot of fun and an eye opener. I'm one of those guys who get the upgrade bug and have to do something about it right.
I'll be honest I think the NAD gear is over powering for my room. My current room isn't ideal and the room gives up when I get into reference listening levels. I have high ceilings in 14 feet and it echoes and kills my overall performance. For normal listening volumes there isn't that much of a difference to warrant the cost of the separates and everything that also goes with them. Yes my music does sound better and more enjoyable the once a week or so I actually get time to sit down and really listen. My system gets used 90% of the time for TV , 8% for movies and 2% for music. I listen to music around the house way more then in the family room. I have speakers all over the house and they are on way more. I use Spotify or my iTunes library streaming off my iPhone 99% of the time as I have the Apple TV connected to the NAD DAC with the NAD gear installed and when the Elite is installed, the Elite has built in Airplay and I can Airplay anything I want to it and play it anywhere in the house. I have 6 rooms shared off Zone 2 and 1 room on Zone 3.
One of my close friends owns a business that carries NAD and he allowed to to demo it all I want with the option to own or return at any time. I'm at that cross roads right now and I'm pretty sure I want to try out the T787 receiver from NAD as that might make more sense in my system. The Elite really does the job well but now that I have heard better in my house even for the amount I use it especially since Spring/ Summer is here, I could use that money for other things I want.
Honestly if I had my Theater room built , this would be a non issue. I would absolutely keep the NAD and the Elite would go up for sale. I have this soft spot for Elite receivers as they perform so damn close to separates which years ago simply was not the case. B&K's receivers where as good and better IMO then some separates on the market but honestly that isn't fair as B&K's receivers where separates in one chassis. NAD builds there receivers basically the same way and IF the T787 outperforms the Elite SC-68 as I think it will, that might be my best Alternative.
Getting rid of all the Interconnects, power cables and such is also something I'll enjoy. I hate having all that wire back in my system as I really love the simplicity of a AVR. If I had a Rack in the basement with all my gear and house gear in, this again would be a mute point.
I have had NAD separates for a few months now, I recently hooked back up my SC-68 to hear all the differences I have been experiencing with the NAD gear and then did a head to head as I thought it was a pretty close race.
When I first got the NAD gear and Installed it. I noticed a few things about it that I really thought was better then the Elite. Power was the first thing. The amp is rated at 140 watts by 7 but it performs more like a 200+ by 7. It's got power for days and incredible Dynamic range. More then the Elite does at all volumes. The Elite is no slouch here as it's one of the very best dynamic range receives I have ever owned , It even rivals my B&K AVR.
Sound quality wise I thought it also was pretty close as watching movies and TV shows really didn't seem to improve greatly. It was small things like dynamic range ability at higher volumes , slightly more clear on certain high action sounding scenes and that was about it. For movie watching I didn't think the NAD was worth it's cost vs the Elite. Yeah it was slightly better but no where near the cost to get there.
You have to consider retail pricing in what the Elite cost vs the NAD plus the IC's you have to purchase not to mention 3 power cords instead of just 1( EXTERNAL DAC)
So If I was only using my system for movies and TV , I don't think buying the NAD gear would warrant the extra cost. I'm kinda on the fence with this as any improvement to me is worth it but when I think about how much more you have to spend to get very little is absolutely not worth it. If I had harder to drive speakers or even higher end speakers then I could see more value.
So honestly with my speakers ( Definitive Technology Mythos ST mains and Mythos 10's surrounds and center) The Elite really does the job and does it extremely well. It doesn't out perform the NAD gear but it's damn close and for the money it destroys it.
Now Music
This is where the NAD starts to really pull away. When I first did the swap I thought that the NAD was just a slight improvement over the Elite for music until I put the Elite back in. I listen to music a few different ways. I basically use my Macbook Pro as my music server. I have all my CD's ripped onto the hard drive in Apple Losses and also have a small collection in High Res which I have to use Pure Music running behind iTunes so I can use USB out to drive a DAC to 24 bit 192. iTunes alone can't play Flac files or high Res music. From what I understand Apple is changing that but currently I need my Pure Music software.
With the NAD, I have to use a External DAC so I picked up a 1050 NAD which is damn fantastic for the money. The Elite has a built in USB DAC which was the first of it's kind when it came out. I'll be honest I was blown away how good the Elite is with it's internal DAC as I have compared it to many other External DAC's and to be fair used the Elite in analog bypass to compare and the internal DAC did amazingly well again Stand alone models up over $1000.00.
The NAD with the External DAC is warm inviting and clear. Again the Dynamics here are effortless and beautiful. Every single note breath cymbal strike and drum beat comes across with clarity and realism. Nothing gets left behind or leaves you wanting more IMO anyway. My Mythos ST's never sounded this good on the Elite playing music. Not to mention the NAD gear really seems to bring out the very best the Mythos has to offer. Sandy Gross is always talking about how damn good the Mythos line is ( or was since he moved on and started another company) and using higher end electronic on them will only unlock more of the beauty they have to offer.
Well he is (was) right. Over the years I have considered upgrading my speaker package to B&W or Klipsch Reference but I knew the Mythos's still had something more to bring to me. They really when listening to music with the NAD running them.
So what's a man to do at this point? Keep the NAD , sell the Elite and life a happy life? Take back the NAD , use that money and try out the NAD receiver in the T787 to see if it retains most of the beauty of the separates for an amazingly less of a shot to the wallet?
Forget about NAD and hopefully one day actually build the basement theater and 2 channel rooms and have 2 entirely different systems one for music and one for movies?
Right now I'm deep involved in the Wire demo with MIT, I'll be posting my results when I'm finished on the official already started MIT wire demo thread. So all this swapping out gear and wires has been a lot of fun and an eye opener. I'm one of those guys who get the upgrade bug and have to do something about it right.
I'll be honest I think the NAD gear is over powering for my room. My current room isn't ideal and the room gives up when I get into reference listening levels. I have high ceilings in 14 feet and it echoes and kills my overall performance. For normal listening volumes there isn't that much of a difference to warrant the cost of the separates and everything that also goes with them. Yes my music does sound better and more enjoyable the once a week or so I actually get time to sit down and really listen. My system gets used 90% of the time for TV , 8% for movies and 2% for music. I listen to music around the house way more then in the family room. I have speakers all over the house and they are on way more. I use Spotify or my iTunes library streaming off my iPhone 99% of the time as I have the Apple TV connected to the NAD DAC with the NAD gear installed and when the Elite is installed, the Elite has built in Airplay and I can Airplay anything I want to it and play it anywhere in the house. I have 6 rooms shared off Zone 2 and 1 room on Zone 3.
One of my close friends owns a business that carries NAD and he allowed to to demo it all I want with the option to own or return at any time. I'm at that cross roads right now and I'm pretty sure I want to try out the T787 receiver from NAD as that might make more sense in my system. The Elite really does the job well but now that I have heard better in my house even for the amount I use it especially since Spring/ Summer is here, I could use that money for other things I want.
Honestly if I had my Theater room built , this would be a non issue. I would absolutely keep the NAD and the Elite would go up for sale. I have this soft spot for Elite receivers as they perform so damn close to separates which years ago simply was not the case. B&K's receivers where as good and better IMO then some separates on the market but honestly that isn't fair as B&K's receivers where separates in one chassis. NAD builds there receivers basically the same way and IF the T787 outperforms the Elite SC-68 as I think it will, that might be my best Alternative.
Getting rid of all the Interconnects, power cables and such is also something I'll enjoy. I hate having all that wire back in my system as I really love the simplicity of a AVR. If I had a Rack in the basement with all my gear and house gear in, this again would be a mute point.
Dan
My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time.
My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time.
Post edited by mantis on
Comments
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Excellent write up Dan. I think your at the crossroads where your listening is telling you one thing & your wallet is telling you another thing. It sounds like the NAD separates pull away slightly over the Pio AVR for music listening (always questionable the more you listen) but are somewhat locked in a tie for movie listening. I've experienced the same scenario with separates vs AVR 's over the years & to be quite honest the AVR (always the flagship models) were the clear winners. I simply couldn't pull myself together to spring for the extra $$$$$ simply for the fact that separates are always supposed to sound better because they're separates. My findings on the matter have always proven to me to be nothing more than an old wives tale. Your next move is to pick up the NAD T787 & give it a spin in your system. I think I already know what the outcome will be. I must say though that it is a lot of fun doing these comparisons as long as you are honest with your findings & tell it like you hear it. And over the years I've saved myself a lot of money just not blindly believing the status quo on what is supposed to be better. That's what we have ears for...use them."2 Channel & 11.2 HT "Two Channel:Magnepan LRSSchiit Audio Freya S - SS preConsonance Ref 50 - Tube preParasound HALO A21+ 2 channel ampBluesound NODE 2i streameriFi NEO iDSD DAC Oppo BDP-93KEF KC62 sub Home Theater:Full blown 11.2 set up.
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pearsall001 wrote: »I must say though that it is a lot of fun doing these comparisons as long as you are honest with your findings & tell it like you hear it. And over the years I've saved myself a lot of money just not blindly believing the status quo on what is supposed to be better. That's what we have ears for...use them.
This I can agree to. I'm always honest to myself and let my ears guide me. If I make a mistake and spend way more on a piece that doesn't deliver, I would admit it, sell it, and move on.
As far as the "old wives tale" comment...maybe a little pal. If we all were to choose gear based on our ears and not our wallet I suspect your system would look different. Thing is, because our wallets are limited, we each have our own diminishing returns point but that should not dictate anything over that point isn't worth it. It's all worth it...providing your wallet agrees too. I think Dan is finding that out.
That said, I don't buy into the market hype always prevalent in audio. I try and listen, if my ears agree and the price is right, I will buy it. Not because some article or specs say I should though. I can appreciate those with bigger wallets, who can achieve a level I can only dream of. Just because I can't afford something doesn't negate the fact that more pricey gear can sound better. Don't need to make up reasons why it doesn't to justify me not opening my wallet. We do agree....let your ears judge, but your ears and your wallet aren't always in sink.HT SYSTEM-
Sony 850c 4k
Pioneer elite vhx 21
Sony 4k BRP
SVS SB-2000
Polk Sig. 20's
Polk FX500 surrounds
Cables-
Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable
Kitchen
Sonos zp90
Grant Fidelity tube dac
B&k 1420
lsi 9's -
I love the sound from my NAD T758 but I sure wish it had the features of the PIO
I still scratch my head sometimes & wonder if I made the wrong choice. But my ears are very happy!2 ch- Polk CRS+ * Vincent SA-31MK Preamp * Vincent Sp-331 Amp * Marantz SA8005 SACD * Project Xperience Classic TT * Sumiko Blue Point #2 MC cartridge
HT - Polk 703's * NAD T-758 * Adcom 5503 * Oppo 103 * Samsung 60" series 8 LCD -
I've always wanted the Nad T787, i'll be interested to read your thoughts on it vs the Pioneer and Nad separates.
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The T187 PRE and the T787 AVR are Identical as a Pre. The Pioneer Elite SC-68 destroys them in for features. It also Sync's much better to my Kuro TV then the NAD does. The NAD does a full Color dance green lines jitter all kinds of mess then gives me a picture. The SC-68 just goes black then comes on perfectly. I'm assuming the HDMI board in the Elite is of Higher quality.I love the sound from my NAD T758 but I sure wish it had the features of the PIO
I still scratch my head sometimes & wonder if I made the wrong choice. But my ears are very happy!Dan
My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time. -
I'm gonna get one here and really compare it. It sucks that the Separates cost so much more and don't give enough to justify the cost. I'll be honest I love the way the NAD sounds with music, it's awesome and better then the Pioneer. So I'm really hoping the NAD AVR will get me somewhere in-between or super close to the separates. Not to mention the retail cost of the NAD AVR is only $4000.00 vs $5800.00 for the separates plus you have to add another $1000.00 for IC's so really $6800.00 for the separates.I've always wanted the Nad T787, i'll be interested to read your thoughts on it vs the Pioneer and Nad separates.Dan
My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time. -
Maybe add a 2 channel power amp to the Pioneer to up the music game.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
I think I agree with F1 but after reading your review. 1) You already have the Pioneer 2) You love the features 3) You love the DAC 4) The Elite is as good as the NAD for HT. $4K for the NAD AVR and more for the separates you reviewed? Have you tried different amps/ integrated in a hybrid config? Seems like even if the NAD AVR sounds better you will be giving up features? Then $1k plus for a DAC? You will figure it all out....
Anyway, good to hear the NAD delivers on sound.2.2 Office Setup | LG 29UB55 21:9 UltraWide | HP Probook 630 G8 | Dell Latitude | Cabasse Stream Amp 100 | Boston Acoustics VS 240 | AUDIORAX Desk Stands | Mirage Omni S8 sub1 | Mirage Omni S8 Sub2 -
I also would agree with F1. While you have the NAD power amp, try pairing it with the Pioneer and see if some of the sterile sound during music playback is solved with that configuration. I really enjoy my SC-67 paired with a Sunfire Sig 400 for both music and HT.____________________________________________________________
polkaudio Fully Modded SDA SRS 1.2TLs + Dreadnaught, LSiM706c, 4 X Polk Surrounds + 4 X ATMOS, SVS PB13 Ultra X 2, Pass Labs X1, Marantz 7704, Bob Carver Crimson Beauty 350 Tube Mono Blocks, Carver Sunfire Signature Cinema Grande 400x5, ADCOM GFA 7807, Panasonic UB420, Moon 380D DAC, EPSON Pro Cinema 6050 -
I agree with Jesse as well Dan. Once you got the Pioneer you absolutely convinced yourself that you didn't need a separate amp and pretty much refused to hook it up to hear for yourself, even though you had to know it would sound better than just the receiver alone. I don't understand why you dug your feet in on this particualar point.
I know you love Rotel products as well, and you could have had a 2 channel Rotel amp hooked up to your receiver and been totally enjoying both your music and movies with your main speakers being fully powered all the time.Marantz AV-7705 PrePro, Classé 5 channel 200wpc Amp, Oppo 103 BluRay, Rotel RCD-1072 CDP, Sony XBR-49X800E TV, Polk S60 Main Speakers, Polk ES30 Center Channel, Polk S15 Surround Speakers SVS SB12-NSD x2 -
Another vote for using the Pio as a pre-. I have an SC-05 that I run with a NAD T-955. I've tried the Pio alone, but adding the NAD is a definite improvement for music.Things work out best for those who make the best of the way things work out.-John Wooden
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The T187 PRE and the T787 AVR are Identical as a Pre. The Pioneer Elite SC-68 destroys them in for features. It also Sync's much better to my Kuro TV then the NAD does. The NAD does a full Color dance green lines jitter all kinds of mess then gives me a picture. The SC-68 just goes black then comes on perfectly. I'm assuming the HDMI board in the Elite is of Higher quality.I love the sound from my NAD T758 but I sure wish it had the features of the PIO
I still scratch my head sometimes & wonder if I made the wrong choice. But my ears are very happy!
Might be part of the "Music First" philosophy of NAD. They care so much about about the music part of their business that video seems to take a back seat with their gear. And while I love NAD components, their video quirks leave a lot to be desired. I have a $50 HDMI (v1.3b) switcher in my current setup that switches my HDMI video much better than some pricey components! I don't care if the signal isn't upscaled, either; just give me a fully functioning HDMI video board that lasts! Sorry for the rant.
HT Room: Preamp - NAD T757 | Amp - Emotiva UPA-500 | Mains - Polk RTi4 | CC - Polk CSi3 | Source - Harman/Kardon DVD48 | Blu-Ray- Oppo BDP-83 | Source - Denon DMD-1000 | Source - Denon DRS-810 | Source - Rega RP-1 | Video Source - Sony RDRGX7 | Video Source - JVC HM-DH30000U | TV - LG 42" LCD Flat Screen -
Nothing wrong with rants my man, this forum is full of them including myself. I probably rant more then most as I'm very judgmental of products.
Dan
My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time. -
Dan what did you end up deciding to do? After hearing Nooshinjohn's Pass Labs X1 in my system earlier this year, I realized just how sterile the Pioneer makes music. I decided to keep the Pioneer for what it does best (HT) and get a 2 channel pre with HT bypass for music. I think this solution is still less than buying HT separates where compromises must still be made by the manufacturer.____________________________________________________________
polkaudio Fully Modded SDA SRS 1.2TLs + Dreadnaught, LSiM706c, 4 X Polk Surrounds + 4 X ATMOS, SVS PB13 Ultra X 2, Pass Labs X1, Marantz 7704, Bob Carver Crimson Beauty 350 Tube Mono Blocks, Carver Sunfire Signature Cinema Grande 400x5, ADCOM GFA 7807, Panasonic UB420, Moon 380D DAC, EPSON Pro Cinema 6050 -
Dan what did you end up deciding to do? After hearing Nooshinjohn's Pass Labs X1 in my system earlier this year, I realized just how sterile the Pioneer makes music. I decided to keep the Pioneer for what it does best (HT) and get a 2 channel pre with HT bypass for music. I think this solution is still less than buying HT separates where compromises must still be made by the manufacturer.
The Pass X-1 and a Pioneer receiver ? Not exactly an apples to apples comparison. I hear ya though, a separate pre can certainly add to the musical side of things.HT SYSTEM-
Sony 850c 4k
Pioneer elite vhx 21
Sony 4k BRP
SVS SB-2000
Polk Sig. 20's
Polk FX500 surrounds
Cables-
Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable
Kitchen
Sonos zp90
Grant Fidelity tube dac
B&k 1420
lsi 9's -
It wasn't supposed to be a comparison between an AVR and a pre as much as it was to pass along that using a pre to bypass the AVR for music might be a better solution than buying a different AVR as separates to try and get some improvement at the expense of losing features.____________________________________________________________
polkaudio Fully Modded SDA SRS 1.2TLs + Dreadnaught, LSiM706c, 4 X Polk Surrounds + 4 X ATMOS, SVS PB13 Ultra X 2, Pass Labs X1, Marantz 7704, Bob Carver Crimson Beauty 350 Tube Mono Blocks, Carver Sunfire Signature Cinema Grande 400x5, ADCOM GFA 7807, Panasonic UB420, Moon 380D DAC, EPSON Pro Cinema 6050 -
Music with the SC-68 and the Mythos ST's is very pleasing. It's what I'm running right now. I returned the NAD as I felt the overall cost VS the Elite wasn't worth the small gains. Maybe I was wrong as the NAD was absolutely better for music in every possible way but I decided at that time to wait and see as I was also considering doing a full system blow out and rebuild. I'm also waiting to see if B&K does in fact release something this fall and gets back into the Preamp and amp game HT and everything like before. If that is the case, you will see B&K back in my rack and the SC-68 up for sale. If Not I'm hoping NAD will release a new card or a new preamp with maybe a killer Digital amp.Dan what did you end up deciding to do? After hearing Nooshinjohn's Pass Labs X1 in my system earlier this year, I realized just how sterile the Pioneer makes music. I decided to keep the Pioneer for what it does best (HT) and get a 2 channel pre with HT bypass for music. I think this solution is still less than buying HT separates where compromises must still be made by the manufacturer.
Either way I'm going back to separates. The SC-68 will be the last AVR I own unless B&K releases a monster.Dan
My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time. -
I dunno Dan, as much as we both are B&k fans, a new monster receiver of comparable quality will probably hit near 4g's. I think too many options are available today to make that a wise choice. If they are forced to stay competitive, I think corners will have to be cut to keep the SQ up to their reputation.HT SYSTEM-
Sony 850c 4k
Pioneer elite vhx 21
Sony 4k BRP
SVS SB-2000
Polk Sig. 20's
Polk FX500 surrounds
Cables-
Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable
Kitchen
Sonos zp90
Grant Fidelity tube dac
B&k 1420
lsi 9's -
I can't see it not being 4k or even more. That won't detour me from getting it IF it's up to my needs. 4K pass through, Atmos , maybe a USB DAC internal(stretch I know) , Room Correction and at least the 125 ST amp models of years past or maybe they have been working on a new Digital amp internally, that would be killer.
Dan
My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time.
