RTi8 Rear Firing PowerPort/Acoustic Panel Behind Speaker

Hermitism

My front speakers have rear firing PowerPorts near the bottom and I have four inch thick OC703 panels sitting behind my front speakers. The panels are 4'x8' and are sitting on the floor, not wall mounted (window behind speakers). Is it okay that the PowerPorts are firing straight (space between) into an acoustic panel? Or do I need to elevate the panels above the ports by using some sort of stand? Rear of speakers are sitting about 15 inches from the wall.

Note: My front speakers are set to small, not large. Does that change how much the ports are effective?

Thanx!

Hermitism

The panels are 2'x4', not 4x8 as stated above. I'm losing my mind!

Polkie2009

Lol, I was going to say, 4'x8' are some big acoustic panels to move around. If you're running your fronts set to small, what is the crossover setting for fronts in the AVR, 80 hz?

Hermitism

Polkie2009 wrote: »

Lol, I was going to say, 4'x8' are some big acoustic panels to move around. If you're running your fronts set to small, what is the crossover setting for fronts in the AVR, 80 hz?

I don't think I was running on all cylinders this morning!

Yes, 80.

Another question. Since I'm running everything off of an AVR, no amp, it was suggested to me to run my fronts on "small" and let the subs handle the lows to help take stress off the AVR. The AVR has plenty of power for my needs (small room and personal listening level). If I'm lucky enough to upgrade my center from a CSi3 to CSi5, should I set that to small or large?

Polkie2009

Yes, try setting the mains, center, side surround and back surround speakers to small and let your subs do the heavy lifting for the under 80 hz. bass. Do you have any_ panels( bass traps) set up in the corners?

tonyb

If they are set to small crossed over at 80, I doubt those bottom ports are seeing much action. Depends on the room bro, it's entirely possible to over dampen a room too.

That said, Having tried floorstanders set to small on numerous occasions, it never floated my boat. Soundstage and heft shrunk considerably to my ears. Simply keep in mind the old set to small crossed at 80 is really just a guideline. You have to experiment a tad to see what setting blows your skirt up....providing your wearing a skirt that is.

Hermitism

Polkie2009 wrote: »

Do you have any_ panels( bass traps) set up in the corners?

No bass traps in corners. Just treating first reflection points at this time.

tonyb wrote: »

You have to experiment a tad to see what setting blows your skirt up....providing your wearing a skirt that is.

Boxer shorts.

msg

tonyb wrote: »

If they are set to small crossed over at 80, I doubt those bottom ports are seeing much action. Depends on the room bro, it's entirely possible to over dampen a room too.

That said, Having tried floorstanders set to small on numerous occasions, it never floated my boat. Soundstage and heft shrunk considerably to my ears. Simply keep in mind the old set to small crossed at 80 is really just a guideline. You have to experiment a tad to see what setting blows your skirt up....providing your wearing a skirt that is.

yeah, *are* those ports seeing any action? have you had a chance to see what they're doing when you're running the system hard?

for music, at this point, I'm finding that I'm not a big fan of speakers set to small and handing off to the sub, but I'm still back and forth on this sometimes, and still playing around. agreed, I find things a little barren sounding when set up this way, again, for music. sounds fine for HT in my limited ht-is-a-lower-priority experience.

even if they are working hard, you've still got the Power Port attached, right? so the output would be diffused anyway, right, not firing into your panel?

this is a bit of an intriguing subject. I've only seen bits and pieces about room treatments, and sort of passed over those parts given that I had other priorities first, but I have absolutely no idea how to go about setting up effective treatments at this point. just read about bass traps to minimize resonance, and that makes sense!

I'm currently running my mains and center large, playing with the x-over at 60-70Hz. also playing with the Extra-Bass setting on/off. the room muddies up a bit over at anything over 70Hz with the mains/center large + x-bass, but I've found that if I don't enable x-bass with the mains/center set to large, the sub doesn't see much action. I feel like this way, the speakers are running more naturally, and the sub is picking up the bottom-bottom end without too much overlap. again, pretty new to this and still messing around, and trying to develop the sweet spot a bit.

That SC-05 is pretty beastly, isn't it? have you tried running your mains/center large with the sub at a lower x-over to see how it sounds?

aboroth00

OC703 won't absorb in the same region your port is operating. You'll need much thicker bass traps for that. If you run your speakers large and your sub in the same region, your speakers and subwoofer will play the same frequencies and cause cancellation issues. If you want to use a sub, you'll need to set it to small or set it to large and roll in your subwoofer very low. If you have floorstanders or bookshelf speakers which can put out <50hz, you won't be using your sub much at all if you roll your sub in <40hz.

As some have mentioned, they prefer no sub. Often times, speakers are not located in ideal positions and thus causes boomy and loose bass which is most likely true for almost all untreated rooms. This can be perceived as increased fullness or a larger soundstage. Flat bass to most people who are used to boomy bass sounds lifeless and dull. You can certainly run a house curve to add the umph without sacrificing resolution.

Proper integration of your sub takes time and effort. Professionals use measuring equipment to position and dial in subs. A simple calibrated mic and RTA software will allow you take best position your treatments and subs.

Thorton

aboroth00 wrote: »

OC703 won't absorb in the same region your port is operating. You'll need much thicker bass traps for that. If you run your speakers large and your sub in the same region, your speakers and subwoofer will play the same frequencies and cause cancellation issues. If you want to use a sub, you'll need to set it to small or set it to large and roll in your subwoofer very low. If you have floorstanders or bookshelf speakers which can put out <50hz, you won't be using your sub much at all if you roll your sub in <40hz.

As some have mentioned, they prefer no sub. Often times, speakers are not located in ideal positions and thus causes boomy and loose bass which is most likely true for almost all untreated rooms. This can be perceived as increased fullness or a larger soundstage. Flat bass to most people who are used to boomy bass sounds lifeless and dull. You can certainly run a house curve to add the umph without sacrificing resolution.

Proper integration of your sub takes time and effort. Professionals use measuring equipment to position and dial in subs. A simple calibrated mic and RTA software will allow you take best position your treatments and subs.

+1. And when you do have the proper integration as outlined above, the results can be outstanding.

tonyb

No doubt proper integration is key to everything, but lets be real here for a second.

Most don't have an ideal situation, they may have limited space to put a sub, maybe one or 2 choices and when you add in the WAF, your screwed from the git-go. Then it becomes a "do the best you can with what you have to work with" scenario. Which usually falls into not being able to produce the sound intended. So what do people do then ? They go out and buy an even bigger sub..lol.

Without a pic of the room, it's hard to say whether or not bass traps are even needed.

I'm not against subs for music, just not my cup of tea but if I were to do subs again it would have to be dual subs on the front stage, not a single. The whole set to small, crossed at 80 works for some situations, not all. The whole purpose is to have the sub take care of certain frequencies allowing the speaker to function more efficiently with the power available to it.

Which is why I always ask those who buy big floorstanders and cross them at 80, why they bought such huge speakers if a good chunk of the frequency range is handed off to a sub ? Really it comes down to putting some thought into what you want to accomplish and then buying the gear to do it. Most do that in reverse....and become unsatisfied with the results.

tonyb

Herm,

Just noticed your using 2 different subs. That's 2 different speeds too and those subs are geared more to the HT side than music side. I would suggest upgrading to at least one better sub and dumping the 2. You can find some nice subs these days in the 500 bone range used. I think your bass issues may be the subs and not the speakers ports or bass traps.

Hermitism

Thank you all for the input, greatly appreciated! I bought the PSW125 years ago, and then purchased the other speakers used, as a set last summer, which came with the PSW303. That's why I have two different subs. The two subs have a completely different sound. The 125 sounds better with movies, and the 303 does better with music. My towers definitely need a sub, they have very little low end. I've tried setting them to "large" when I got them, without running either sub and it just didn't get low enough for my taste. A better sub is definitely on my radar in the future. But not currently a huge priority due to having my system set up in such a small room. That's my big problem!! My family room had hardwood floors, four big picture windows, four smaller windows, a glass door, and it has a big opening above the counter that opens up into the kitchen, that can't be closed off. With no window treatments, because the house is back in the woods, in the boonies. The room is extremely bright and a nightmare for a home theater. So my HT is set up in a spare bedroom. I currently don't have a big complaint with the sound, but was just curious if I needed to raise my acoustic panels above the ports. It was something that didn't occur to me when I built the panels and placed them behind the towers. I have the towers set to small, and I don't really notice much happening from the ports. But I just wanted to check with you guys to have the best possible set up. As always, your help is much appreciated as I am very inexperienced in the proper way to set up an audio system.

I was three credits short from graduating on time (college), so I had to take a summer class to graduate. That last class I took was a drawing class called "Drawing For The Non-Major". It combined students from the intro course, Drawing I, II, and III. So it had advanced students and beginners all in the same class. It was really cool to be able to see what the advanced student could draw. This forum always reminds me of that class. Beginners and advanced in the same class. It must be a drag for the advanced students in here!

tonyb

Gotcha bro.

I would imagine the HT system in a bedroom with both subs is a bit overkill in there but hey, if you like it roll with it. I would say remove the bass traps and see how it sounds, those ports aren't seeing much anyway. Maybe place the panels at your first reflection point instead and see if that changes anything to your liking. If you have the room anyway.

Hermitism

Oh, I'm not using both at the same time, although I have tried it. I have them both hooked up using a splitter, but I just use the 125 for HT, and the other for music.

tonyb

Gotcha...my bad. That makes more sense now.

Polkie2009

What size is the room for the HT? I would think any room would benefit with bass traps in the corners. I was using some Polk LS50s speakers as side surrounds and they have a port on the front. They are spaced about 6' away from the main listening position. During certain parts of a movie where there's a lot of surround activity, those LS50's will hit a frequency that will force a blast of air out of the front port of the LS50s that I can feel hitting me,lol. And they are set to small.

msg

haha, yeah man, I realized after I posted and reading back that I'd kinda gotten off on a tangent, away from your original question - sorry about that

so, curious, are those panels you made to control highs or lower notes?
what sort of system response are you getting that you're working with room treatments?
I'm curious about your experience in this because my environment may require some treatment as well, since I'm in quasi/perpetual renovation (read: I've put off home project in favor of building this system over the past 5 months) with exposed concrete and relatively bare walls, and I feel like the space could use a little "padding".

Hermitism wrote: »

My family room had hardwood floors, four big picture windows, four smaller windows, a glass door, and it has a big opening above the counter that opens up into the kitchen, that can't be closed off. With no window treatments, because the house is back in the woods, in the boonies. The room is extremely bright and a nightmare for a home theater. So my HT is set up in a spare bedroom. I currently don't have a big complaint with the sound, but was just curious if I needed to raise my acoustic panels above the ports. It was something that didn't occur to me when I built the panels and placed them behind the towers. I have the towers set to small, and I don't really notice much happening from the ports. But I just wanted to check with you guys to have the best possible set up. As always, your help is much appreciated as I am very inexperienced in the proper way to set up an audio system.

Hermitism

Polkie2009 wrote: »

What size is the room for the HT? I would think any room would benefit with bass traps in the corners. I was using some Polk LS50s speakers as side surrounds and they have a port on the front. They are spaced about 6' away from the main listening position. During certain parts of a movie where there's a lot of surround activity, those LS50's will hit a frequency that will force a blast of air out of the front port of the LS50s that I can feel hitting me,lol. And they are set to small.

You are going to cringe when I tell you the room size. 11.5 x 14.5. My family room is 22' wide and 24' deep at one part and 30' in other part. Not only are the hard surfaces a problem in the family room, but I have to keep the center of the run clear to walk through because of the door locations, so the sectional is far from the TV. I only use that TV for watching the news and the occasional TV show. Thus the spare bedroom scenario.

I have no doubt that I'd benefit greatly from corner traps. The problem is I don't have room for two foot wide panels in the corners. My sub's are in the corner to allow the proper distance between the two front speakers.

Msg, I currently have 4" thick panels behind the fronts, and 2" think on sides and behind the listening area. Helped greatly with the brightness, and brought more clarity. Very pleased with the results. I have a desk on the left side of the room, and and a short cabinet on the right, so the side panels are above and are not full size panels (2' x 2')

Note: the phone company is working on the lines down the street from my driveway andvI have no phone or internet. Went down to ask them how long before everything would be back up and running and they were no longer there. Currently on my tablet at the library, and am having major problems with this forum. I'll log in and as soon as I load another page of the forum, I'm no longer logged in. On some pages I can't log in. My replies will be sp

Hermitism

Having trouble posting, says I'm not logged in when I try to post.

aboroth00

tonyb wrote: »

No doubt proper integration is key to everything, but lets be real here for a second.

Most don't have an ideal situation, they may have limited space to put a sub, maybe one or 2 choices and when you add in the WAF, your screwed from the git-go. Then it becomes a "do the best you can with what you have to work with" scenario. Which usually falls into not being able to produce the sound intended. So what do people do then ? They go out and buy an even bigger sub..lol.

Without a pic of the room, it's hard to say whether or not bass traps are even needed.

I'm not against subs for music, just not my cup of tea but if I were to do subs again it would have to be dual subs on the front stage, not a single. The whole set to small, crossed at 80 works for some situations, not all. The whole purpose is to have the sub take care of certain frequencies allowing the speaker to function more efficiently with the power available to it.

Which is why I always ask those who buy big floorstanders and cross them at 80, why they bought such huge speakers if a good chunk of the frequency range is handed off to a sub ? Really it comes down to putting some thought into what you want to accomplish and then buying the gear to do it. Most do that in reverse....and become unsatisfied with the results.

You may be limited in the position you can place the sub, but it isn't as limited as to where your put your speakers, they go in front where they image best. At least with a sub, you have more options in terms of placement as well as crossovers and most importantly EQ.

Regardless of the room size or shape, it cannot have too many bass traps. Bass traps are necessary to control the reverberation of bass in any room. Bass which persists in the room is a room artifact and is not true to the original recording. It smears the mids and highs...

The whole purpose of the sub is not to take care of the certain frequencies so the speaker can function more efficiently. By handing off the lower frequencies, the speaker does not even perform much more efficiently. You are missing the entire point of a subwoofer. It is there to more effectively produce bass frequencies as it is better suited for the job. This can mean that it is producing these frequencies more accurately and efficiently due to its driver/diaphragm construction and due to its EQ and location in the room. A sub can be integrated into almost all situations with time, patience, measuring equipment and your ears.

Big speakers are more efficient, which means you can use lower wattage amps, and they can yield better dynamics due to those larger drivers. It isn't really a "good" chunk of the frequency range. We hear from 20hz to 20khz, so it's really just the first 1 or 2 octaves that the sub is handling.

msg

Hermitism wrote: »

You are going to cringe when I tell you the room size. 11.5 x 14.5. My family room is 22' wide and 24' deep at one part and 30' in other part. Not only are the hard surfaces a problem in the family room, but I have to keep the center of the run clear to walk through because of the door locations, so the sectional is far from the TV. I only use that TV for watching the news and the occasional TV show. Thus the spare bedroom scenario.

I have no doubt that I'd benefit greatly from corner traps. The problem is I don't have room for two foot wide panels in the corners. My sub's are in the corner to allow the proper distance between the two front speakers.

Msg, I currently have 4" thick panels behind the fronts, and 2" think on sides and behind the listening area. Helped greatly with the brightness, and brought more clarity. Very pleased with the results. I have a desk on the left side of the room, and and a short cabinet on the right, so the side panels are above and are not full size panels (2' x 2')

this is good info. did you make those panels yourself or buy something prefab?
I'm mostly satisfied with my system now since having undergone a second speaker selection, but I feel like it could benefit from just a little something to pad the highs juuuust a tad, so maybe I'll take a stab at some diy treatmenty bits.

my listening/living space is similar to your family room - open floor plan in similar dimensions, with windows front and rear, doors and other openings. your HT room actually sounds quite suitable my system and environment are nowhere near ideal/perfect, but that doesn't seem to stop me from trying to refine

tonyb

aboroth00 wrote: »

You may be limited in the position you can place the sub, but it isn't as limited as to where your put your speakers, they go in front where they image best. At least with a sub, you have more options in terms of placement as well as crossovers and most importantly EQ.

Regardless of the room size or shape, it cannot have too many bass traps. Bass traps are necessary to control the reverberation of bass in any room. Bass which persists in the room is a room artifact and is not true to the original recording. It smears the mids and highs...

The whole purpose of the sub is not to take care of the certain frequencies so the speaker can function more efficiently. By handing off the lower frequencies, the speaker does not even perform much more efficiently. You are missing the entire point of a subwoofer. It is there to more effectively produce bass frequencies as it is better suited for the job. This can mean that it is producing these frequencies more accurately and efficiently due to its driver/diaphragm construction and due to its EQ and location in the room. A sub can be integrated into almost all situations with time, patience, measuring equipment and your ears.

Big speakers are more efficient, which means you can use lower wattage amps, and they can yield better dynamics due to those larger drivers. It isn't really a "good" chunk of the frequency range. We hear from 20hz to 20khz, so it's really just the first 1 or 2 octaves that the sub is handling.

I can agree with most of that. Obviously a sub is to reproduce bass frequencies, but also the side effect of helping out the speakers operate more efficiently is touted as a plus.

I can also agree with Skip, dual subs is the way to go on the front stage....if subs are your thing. Single subs to my ears tend to become more localized....separate from the rest of the music. When you have big floorstanders, the music comes from one place and the bass seems to be more integrated into the musical scene presented. You have a better image of whats before you. That's my opinion, yours may differ.

Some big speakers are efficient, not as a general rule though and I would never put a low wattage amp on big speakers. Those drivers need current to stop and start on a dime or you'll get flabby bass with low power. The dynamics won't happen with low wattage amps either. Big drivers need big power to move them. Mine have 3 12's in them each,even though one is passive, feeding them 400 watts/ 70 amperes peek to peek is still on the lower side of what they can suck up.

Your other assertions about "chunks" of the frequency range and hearing from 20hz-20khz....nobody would buy a speaker or sub that goes below what you can't hear if you believe that. Aside from that, bass waves are also felt besides heard. Even if you could only hear to 20 hz, you can certainly feel a lot lower.

That's my .02. Music is felt as much as heard imho. I like that big dynamic live sound, where I can pick instruments out on a stage and the drummer is right there...not off to the side somewhere. That's why I maintain dual subs up front to anchor those bass notes where they belong. Or...get monster speakers that can play low and feed them some current.

aboroth00

tonyb wrote: »

I can agree with most of that. Obviously a sub is to reproduce bass frequencies, but also the side effect of helping out the speakers operate more efficiently is touted as a plus.

I can also agree with Skip, dual subs is the way to go on the front stage....if subs are your thing. Single subs to my ears tend to become more localized....separate from the rest of the music. When you have big floorstanders, the music comes from one place and the bass seems to be more integrated into the musical scene presented. You have a better image of whats before you. That's my opinion, yours may differ.

Some big speakers are efficient, not as a general rule though and I would never put a low wattage amp on big speakers. Those drivers need current to stop and start on a dime or you'll get flabby bass with low power. The dynamics won't happen with low wattage amps either. Big drivers need big power to move them. Mine have 3 12's in them each,even though one is passive, feeding them 400 watts/ 70 amperes peek to peek is still on the lower side of what they can suck up.

Your other assertions about "chunks" of the frequency range and hearing from 20hz-20khz....nobody would buy a speaker or sub that goes below what you can't hear if you believe that. Aside from that, bass waves are also felt besides heard. Even if you could only hear to 20 hz, you can certainly feel a lot lower.

That's my .02. Music is felt as much as heard imho. I like that big dynamic live sound, where I can pick instruments out on a stage and the drummer is right there...not off to the side somewhere. That's why I maintain dual subs up front to anchor those bass notes where they belong. Or...get monster speakers that can play low and feed them some current.

Bass is not stereo. This has been proven ages ago. There is no such thing as stereo bass so having two subs do either channel is not using them to their fullest potential. Proper setup and integration is key. If you dont' have them properly setup, then you will have localization and integration problems. It's not an opinion. It's whether the job is being satisfied and in your case with your settings and placement it was not. With measuring equipment, proper placement, and setup, I was able to integrate my subwoofer properly. Many people do not go to adequate lengths to properly integrate their sub.

I stated that you can use "lower" wattage amps, not low wattage amps. Big drivers DO NOT need big power to drive them. Big drivers are inherently more efficient because they can move more air with the larger driver surface area.

Many people buy subwoofers with output below 20hz. My statement was intended to say that the subwoofer covers a small but important region in the audio range.

You can have your cake and eat with a sub. You can have big dynamic live sound. Again people are sometimes used to loose and flabby bass as full bass. This is misleading and you're robbed of resolution. Get a sub properly integrated and it'll do what your towers do and better. When big audio manufacturers like Wilson demo their big floorstanders, they use subwoofers.

aboroth00

DSkip wrote: »

I don't subscribe to the "sub anywhere in the room" mantra so many home theater guys do. The only way I'd do subs is a pair in a stereo array up front. You have slightly more flexibility versus just speakers, but after hearing what stellar, well controlled, and room-fitting bass can do, I can't envision any other way to do it.

Hermit, when I cut my own treatments, I cut 2x4 pieces for reflection points and 1x4 pieces for the corners. This worked out optimally for me because I can layer them in a corner to act like a bass trap or spread em around the room to try new things. Before you think you can't do it, I've got a 12x14 room, so I'm not far at all from your own dimensions.

As far as seeing if you need any bass traps/treatments, go stand in a corner and see if you have standing waves. If pressure is building up in the corner, you need to treat it.

Stereo bass is a myth. Standing waves occur in corners and anywhere two walls intersect. You can never have enough bass trapping.

No one subscribes to a sub anywhere in the room. There are more ideal locations to locate a sub than others depending on how the sub interacts with the room.

Hermitism

Just got my DSL back. I can't function without the internet. Work and play has become so dependent on it. I'm running late, so I haven't had time to read everything in this thread yet, but wanted to answer msg's question.

msg wrote: »

this is good info. did you make those panels yourself or buy something prefab?
I'm mostly satisfied with my system now since having undergone a second speaker selection, but I feel like it could benefit from just a little something to pad the highs juuuust a tad, so maybe I'll take a stab at some diy treatmenty bits.

I built my own. Skip recommended this site for research and understanding how acoustic panels work:
http://www.gikacoustics.com/
They have great info there!

Here is what I made and the costs for each:
Wuji Caviar Solid Black Microsuede 3 yards @ $12.99/yrd $38.97
Wuji Charcoal/gray solid Alova 3 yards @ $8.99/yrd $26.97 ($70.56 with tax)
Owens Corning 703-2" 6 panels/box $48.00 + $33.91 UPS Ground ($81.91)

Two 2'x4'x4"
Three 2'x2'x2"
Two 1'x2'x2" panels
Total cost: $152.47

Here is the thread I posted after building them, but I don't think the pics are still available.
http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?155796-Acoustic-Panel-Madness

No matter how hard I tried, I could not find anyone that carried acoustic insulation locally. I tried Lowes, Home Depot, roofing and insulation companies, but no one keeps that stuff in stock and the only place I found that would order it for me wanted more money that I could get it for myself. I ended up ordering from http://www.buyinsulationproductstore.com/servlet/StoreFront They had the best price I could find. My goal was to buy some Owens Corning 703 off of Craigslist, but I tried for months with no success, so I finally ordered it online. I could have saved more money if I would have waited for the fabric to go on sale, but I had some free time at before Christmas, so I needed it right then. I made mine without wood frames. The project was well worth the money IMO.

FYI: If you use a staple gun as I did, make sure to buy staples that have pointed tips. I just happened to have two boxes of staples in the garage. When I first started, I couldn't get the staples to penetrate the fabric. Then looked at the staples up close and noticed they had blunt ends. Luckily the second box I had, had pointed tips. You can also use fabric spray glue, but I don't know how well it works. I said, "penetrate"...uh huh huh huh.

Polkie2009

aboroth00 wrote: »

Stereo bass is a myth. Standing waves occur in corners and anywhere two walls intersect. You can never have enough bass trapping.

No one subscribes to a sub anywhere in the room. There are more ideal locations to locate a sub than others depending on how the sub interacts with the room.

I too_ was under the impression you can never go wrong with having bass traps in all the corners , more if you can afford them. But that's what I read from the acoustic treatment manufacturers site, so maybe they are just trying to sell more of their products, lol. I have 2 Epik Empire subs running up in front, one in each corner. Since they are the sealed design, they seem to work fine in that location.Maybe some day I'll make the jump to Seaton Submersives up front. Bass traps have definitely helped tighten up my bass in the room, day and night difference. Let us know if you have any luck getting back on line Herm. EDIT, and there you are!

Hermitism

There is a telephone junction box off the street near my mailbox and EVERY time they are fooling around in there, they end up pinching my phone line when they try to shut the lid. My line is on the outer edge and gets pinched or severed. Grrr. I hate being dependent on technology. Having no internet made me feel like I had lost a family member. Went to McDonalds last night at Midnight to use their wireless magic, sat in my car and used my tablet in their parking lot to check on my "daily internet things" and read my emails. I never want to miss that email from a beautiful girl that tells me that her loins ache for me. I've yet to receive that email. I hate everyone.

Wow, lots to read here. Okay, large vs. small. On my AVR, when I switch my fronts to large, it cuts off the signal to the sub. But it has an option, which I think is called Large Plus. When I first got the Pio, I tried every possible combination of things...large, small, plus, different crossover points, etc.

I'll describe my issues and more than likely you will tell me that bass traps are my cure...or a hospital stay. First problem is neither of my subs go as low as I'd like, but that can't be solved until I upgrade the sub, so lets ignore that one. My room has a short curio cabinet and a chest of drawers next to it, both on the right side of the room. Putting a sub in the right corner causes absolute chaos. The curio rattled like a pocket full of change. So, subs are in left corner. That helped. Tried moving one sub on to the left wall, but once it was no longer next to the front speaker, it became extremely apparent where the sub location was, it did not blend with the fronts. Back in corner.

When I did my calibration, I didn't change the sub level for one full month. I had read that the sub should blend perfectly and not be over powering. It just wasn't enough. Movies were lackluster. So I bumped up the level a bit.

When I had it set to Large Plus, at low volume the fronts sounded more full and warmer, but as I raised the volume things began to vibrate...items on desk, curio, rear panel of chest. So I turned down my sub, but as things stopped vibrating, I was left with too little bass. Setting it to small, but having my sub level turned up a bit more, seems to give me more bass without the problems. I'd prefer much more bass than I have, or maybe just lower bass. I had a real problem getting the level right for music, then when I was satisfied and watched a movie, there wasn't enough bass for explosions, and such. I have an option to adjust the bass separately for each source. Right now I've got it where I'm happy. Maybe I should use the word "content". One thing I did notice after building the room treatments is that my bass sounded stronger, even though they are only 2" and 4" thick and not in the corners. I even had to look to make sure I hadn't bumped the volume knob on the sub when arranging the panels. I talked about it in a different thread at the time. It was an unintended benefit. Also, after adding Dynamat to everything, I was left with a warmer sound. Right now, no one would enter my room and say, "Wow, listen to that sub kick!" You don't really think you can hear it until you turn the sub off and then you realize it really was helping out. Personally my preference is much like nbrowser's (from what I have read)...we like strong bass. My system isn't there yet.

Not more than a week ago, I posted that I stay away from any place with high end audio, because if I hear it, I will no longer be happy with what I currently have. I didn't want to get the upgrade bug, but wrote that I might upgrade my center at some point. Then someone reads that and tells me they have the big brother to my center channel for sale. Well, just bought a CSi5 today to replace the CSi3. You ALL suck! Every time I think I'm out, you drag me back in! When it arrives, I'm going to try out the CSi3 as a single rear surround. Never had anything in my rear before :eek:

amb426amb1

You all suck....lol. I can't keep up...spent the weekend making desicions on cable upgrades and now room treatments. I've spent a lifetime treating disorders at the hospital I work for...thinking we diagnose and medicate for this type of behavior.

aboroth00

DSkip wrote: »

You're either delusional or ignorant if you don't think bass can image. Until I heard the Wilson Alexia setup, I was ignorant myself. That experience made my jaw drop. It sent me on a mission with my speakers and I finally got 'similar' imaging of the bass. Having a stereo pair make the bass image as they should. If you've never experienced this, you probably have a build up of bass in your room that is destroying not only overall sound quality, but the imaging aspect of bass.

Its true that the bass builds up in corners. It isn't true that it builds up in every corner though. For instance, in my room, the bass really builds up in every corner except the one behind and to the left of the listener. I don't have much issue with standing waves in that fourth corner. Each room is different and walking around while the music is playing helps tremendously in getting to know your room.


Edit: To elaborate on bass imaging, the best way to describe it is you hear it in a defined space, then it hits you in the chest. You don't feel it everywhere... it hits you then its gone. Its the damndest thing if you've never experienced it. We grow so accustomed to poorly treated rooms where the bass is omnipresent that we don't realize what its capable of.

It's not ignorance, it is tried and true. http://www.nousaine.com/pdfs/Stereo%20Bass.pdf Bass does image, it gives you the breadth of the soundstage. However if you have your subwoofer set below 80hz which you should, these frequencies are omnidirectional and you should not be able to locate the frequencies playing. Summing the frequencies is also advantageous to smooth out room modes among other reasons in the paper.


Bass builds up in corners. All modes have their greatest pressure at the boundaries which define the spatial dimensions necessary for that particular resonance. Since a corner or tricorner involve two or three boundaries, the pressure would be greatest for modal frequencies in these locations. This is why when you place a sub in the corner you get so much extra room gain.

aboroth00

Give this a shot. http://www.audiocheck.net/audiotests_basslocalization.php