Power Surge blew my receiver... should I upgrade my surge protector toba ups?

killadaclown

Last Monday I received all my new gear: 2 RTiA5's, Denon X3000, and a Rhythmic Audio FV15HP. I plugged it in to my surge protector with my 55" plasma, blu-ray player, router, and Xbox one. My surge protector is supposed to handle up to 5000 Joules.

Thursday I was playing a game and we had a 5 second power surge. I turned everything back on to check that it worked before turning it off. Everything worked except for the receiver, which the crossover settings were changed and I couldn't access the menus.

Anyways its getting replaced, but I'm wondering since it blew the receiver and the surge protector didn't do its job, do you think it would be better to upgrade surge protectors or get a ups? What brands would you recommend? I have only heard of Monster.

txcoastal1

Sorry to here this

Look at Furman, Panamax, APC in that order

....... and on the high end SurgeX

CoolJazz

By surge, do you mean a power outage?

UPS electronics internally are very susceptible to power problems. Typically they put some MOV's on the input to help a little on protection of them. Not likely to be up to the level of what you already have. So I wouldn't consider a UPS as protection at all for transient power problems. Not to mention that the power out of most of them (when they are on-line) is a terrible waveform.

More likely, if it was transient power problems, you don't have a very good ground and no surge protection is going to do much without solving that problem.

CJ

killadaclown

txcoastal1 wrote: »

Sorry to here this

Look at Furman, Panamax, APC in that order

....... and on the high end SurgeX

OK thanks! I will into those.

killadaclown

CoolJazz wrote: »

By surge, do you mean a power outage?

UPS electronics internally are very susceptible to power problems. Typically they put some MOV's on the input to help a little on protection of them. Not likely to be up to the level of what you already have. So I wouldn't consider a UPS as protection at all for transient power problems. Not to mention that the power out of most of them (when they are on-line) is a terrible waveform.

More likely, if it was transient power problems, you don't have a very good ground and no surge protection is going to do much without solving that problem.

CJ

Yeah the power just blinked off and on in the matter of maybe 5 seconds. So if you don't recommend a UPS, then what do you recommend for a better surge protector? And how do I check the grounding of the house?

I'm open to all options here. Just don't want it to happen again.

F1nut

Yeah the power just blinked off and on in the matter of maybe 5 seconds.

That's not a power surge, therefore there was nothing for your surge protector to protect.

Everything worked except for the receiver, which the crossover settings were changed and I couldn't access the menus.

If you couldn't access the menus how do you know the crossover settings were changed?

Have you tried a reset, look it up in your manual.

tonyb

Try a hard re-set as suggested, sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. Also check for any blown fuses.

killadaclown

tonyb wrote: »

Try a hard re-set as suggested, sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. Also check for any blown fuses.

Because I can tell from the bass coming from the fronts rather than the sub. I had to do a few tweaks to get the bass coming out of the sub properly and in order to set it for thx reference levels.

Yeah I tried that and it still didn't work. I have been in contact with Denton about that.

So far I see I should check the ground and then look at the options above. And where would the fuses be on the receiver? Any other suggestions?

Phasewolf

Sounds like the micro controller is scrambled or some type of logic issue. How did you preform the reset did you simply unplug it or did you hit the buttons needed to do such?

Try it how the manual tells you too and after that unplug it for like a hour and see if it helps. I have seen where a reset did not work and unplugging it did.

Good luck.

Inspector 24

That seems like a lot of gear to plug into a single power strip...

Hopefully a good hard reset will fix your problems...And some more power management. I have two Monster HTS2600's that have so far served me well. I like that I can hit one button on the front to turn everything on/off at once and it did provide some better sound with the front end gear plugged into it, that's the blu ray, and the receiver.

Zentish

Killdaclown, try a power quiescence on the AVR. If the factory reset doesn't work, unplug it from the grid for an extended time, most gear will reset itself without standby power. Leave it unplugged for like 24 hours or more - as long as you can stand.

Glen B

killadaclown wrote: »

Anyways its getting replaced, but I'm wondering since it blew the receiver and the surge protector didn't do its job, do you think it would be better to upgrade surge protectors or get a ups? What brands would you recommend?

If you own your own home, get a whole house surge protector, which connects to the main electrical panel through a double-pole breaker. Supplement it with a Surge-X or Brickwall surge protector, into which you plug all your equipment. That will provide you with two levels of protection. If you can't install whole house protection, then one of the two aforementioned protectors will be fine.

http://www.amazon.com/Leviton-51120-1-Panel-Protector-240-Volt/dp/B00081K55Q

http://www.brickwall.com/collections/surge-protectors-home-theater-hdtv

http://www.surgex.com/residential.html

killadaclown

CoolJazz wrote: »

By surge, do you mean a power outage?

UPS electronics internally are very susceptible to power problems. Typically they put some MOV's on the input to help a little on protection of them. Not likely to be up to the level of what you already have. So I wouldn't consider a UPS as protection at all for transient power problems. Not to mention that the power out of most of them (when they are on-line) is a terrible waveform.

More likely, if it was transient power problems, you don't have a very good ground and no surge protection is going to do much without solving that problem.

CJ

So I just finished checking the grounding in one of the outlets. I noticed there isn't one... My TV room is in a new addition, and so I will need to check with the owner if they added grounds when they added on.

Assuming they didn't, does a surge protector still work? Is there anything I can do to protect it without a ground? I suppose I could always run my own wire, but that wouldn't look pretty. Ha

CoolJazz

Better surge protectors shunt back and forth from leg to leg and not just to ground. You would have to check the documentation on whatever you have to know what protection any device you have will offer.

Everyone should have a simple outlet analyzer. One of the yellow little plug in devices with 3 lights on it. They tell you if wiring is crossed up or anything including ground is missing. With reference to ground, they don't tell you the quality of it, only if it's missing. But still, they are a handy thing to have around the home for simple checks whenever you have a question.

Here is a link to one from Lowe's....

http://www.lowes.com/pd_292767-12704-61-500_4294618094__?productId=3128413&Ntt=ideal&pl=1&currentURL=%3FNtt%3Dideal&facetInfo=

You should push the owner to have a proper ground installed as a matter of safety. Your insurance company might also have the ability to push for this if your inquiry doesn't do it. Installing your own, the thing to know is it must be referenced (attached) to the same point as the electrical is.

CJ

leftwinger57

I use the Samson PS-15 9 outlet power strip. It has a big lit on/off rocker switch and handles all my sources. What the joule rating is I do not know. The wire and plug end is long and a very heavy gu. It has never gone off but I never had a direct lightening hit either. My apt is wired w/ aluminum cable not Romex and I do see dipps at certain times but never noticed any correlation w/ that and sound out of my system.
http://www.samsontech.com/samson/products/processors/powerbrite/ps15/

BlueFox

You had a power outage. However, when the power comes back it can create a surge. All of a sudden every home affected by the outage is having their refrigerator, and anything else turned on, suddenly come back online. This can create some havoc on the power line. Ideally, you want gear that turns off when there is an outage to prevent these type of problems. Why manufacturers do not do this amazes me.

Glen B

killadaclown wrote: »

So I just finished checking the grounding in one of the outlets. I noticed there isn't one... My TV room is in a new addition, and so I will need to check with the owner if they added grounds when they added on.

Assuming they didn't, does a surge protector still work? Is there anything I can do to protect it without a ground? I suppose I could always run my own wire, but that wouldn't look pretty. Ha

How did you check for ground at the outlet ? Depending on the age of the house, it may have been wired with "knob and tube" wiring, "BX" cable, an old form of armored cable, in flexible steel jacket, or combination of both. In older houses, wall receptacles were often not connected to ground, even with bx cable present, and grounded at the electrical panel/fuse box end. The only way to be sure is to remove the wall plate and check for the wiring method used and presence of ground if there is bx cable.

Brickwall surge protectors I linked to above do not divert surges to ground, and therefore do not need the ground connection to work. They are "surge limiting" devices that work in series with the load to limit the surge, then slowly release the excessive surge current to neutral. Other types of surge protective devices simply divert surges to ground/neutral instantaneously.

seabeerob213

you should take the old receiver to the firing range

westom

killadaclown wrote: »

Assuming they didn't, does a surge protector still work? Is there anything I can do to protect it without a ground?

A ground in the wall receptacle is safety ground. Required to protect human life and why the power strip must have that ground.

The ground that protects transistors is earth ground. Even if interconnected to the safety ground, it remains electrically quite different.

Transistor protection involves low impedance (ie 'less than 10 foot') connections to earth ground. Best protection is done for all two and three wire circuits when every incoming utility wire (inside every cable) makes that short connection to earth. A connection best made directly by a hardware (ie cable TV, satellite dish). Or use a next best thing to make that same low impedance connection - a 'whole house' protector.

Protector should already exist on telephone, cable, and satellite dish. It is required by code. Unfortunately some installers (especially dish installers) do not properly install it.

The most common source of destructive anomalies is AC electric. It does not exist unless a homeowner bothers to install it. But again, a protector does not do protection. What a protector or hardwire connects to defines protection on all interior circuits. Then we have an answer to the most important question, "Where do hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly dissipate?" Protection is defined by the quality of single point earth ground. All four words have significance.

Safety ground in a wall receptacle is important for human safety. If it does not exist, then the circuit should have a GFCI or a receptacle must be two wire type.

killadaclown

CoolJazz wrote: »

Better surge protectors shunt back and forth from leg to leg and not just to ground. You would have to check the documentation on whatever you have to know what protection any device you have will offer.

Everyone should have a simple outlet analyzer. One of the yellow little plug in devices with 3 lights on it. They tell you if wiring is crossed up or anything including ground is missing. With reference to ground, they don't tell you the quality of it, only if it's missing. But still, they are a handy thing to have around the home for simple checks whenever you have a question.

Here is a link to one from Lowe's....

http://www.lowes.com/pd_292767-12704-61-500_4294618094__?productId=3128413&Ntt=ideal&pl=1¤tURL=%3FNtt%3Dideal&facetInfo=



You should push the owner to have a proper ground installed as a matter of safety. Your insurance company might also have the ability to push for this if your inquiry doesn't do it. Installing your own, the thing to know is it must be referenced (attached) to the same point as the electrical is.

CJ

Ok great. Thanks for that I wasn't sure. I will need to pick that up to check if the addition is grounded. I was told it was, but want to double check.

killadaclown

leftwinger57 wrote: »

I use the Samson PS-15 9 outlet power strip. It has a big lit on/off rocker switch and handles all my sources. What the joule rating is I do not know. The wire and plug end is long and a very heavy gu. It has never gone off but I never had a direct lightening hit either. My apt is wired w/ aluminum cable not Romex and I do see dipps at certain times but never noticed any correlation w/ that and sound out of my system.
http://www.samsontech.com/samson/products/processors/powerbrite/ps15/

Ok great. Thanks for that tip. I will check out that one too!

killadaclown

Glen B wrote: »

How did you check for ground at the outlet ? Depending on the age of the house, it may have been wired with "knob and tube" wiring, "BX" cable, an old form of armored cable, in flexible steel jacket, or combination of both. In older houses, wall receptacles were often not connected to ground, even with bx cable present, and grounded at the electrical panel/fuse box end. The only way to be sure is to remove the wall plate and check for the wiring method used and presence of ground if there is bx cable.

Brickwall surge protectors I linked to above do not divert surges to ground, and therefore do not need the ground connection to work. They are "surge limiting" devices that work in series with the load to limit the surge, then slowly release the excessive surge current to neutral. Other types of surge protective devices simply divert surges to ground/neutral instantaneously.

I did it the old fashioned way and turned off the power and pulled it out of the wall. Given that the wires were quite corroded and discolored, but there were only two there. So either nothing is connected to ground, or the electrician was being cheap back in the 50's and connected the negative to the ground also. I didn't look close enough to know for sure. Just that the third wire wasn't there.

All the stuff I'm worried about is in an addition that was added in the 70's. I'm planning on checking into that too.

Ok great. I like the thought of those types of surge protectors you mentioned. Sounds like that would be a better fit with the older wiring that I have.

unc2701

Another vote for surgex/brickwall. Been using them for years and never once had an issue.

F1nut

So either nothing is connected to ground, or the electrician was being cheap back in the 50's and connected the negative to the ground also.

They didn't use a seperate ground back in the '50's.

Tornado Red

Just to throw out a couple more options for surge protection...I redid my HT room's power last year and used a double dose of protection that didn't break the bank. Two new dedicated 20 amp lines from 2 x 60' AC90 12/2 wire, 2 x 20 amp breakers (Cutler-Hammer). For surge protection I used 2 x 20amp Leviton industrial surge protected wall plugs to hopefully remedy any "in house" surges such as electric motor/compressor start ups for the fridge, A/C, air compressor etc. I have no expectations for these to stop anything coming in from outside.

http://www.amazon.com/Leviton-5380-W-Receptacle-Industrial-Grounding/dp/B0007SL702/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1393524507&sr=8-4&keywords=Leviton+20+amp+surge+protected+outlet

For lightning, power company snafus, etc. I installed this whole house protector at the panel:

http://www.amazon.com/You-get-both-installation-instructions/dp/B006S9JJ9A/ref=sr_1_20?ie=UTF8&qid=1393525089&sr=8-20&keywords=Whole+house+surge+protection

I did the installation so total cost was around $300. About $150 of that for the whole panel surge and surge plugs. Something else to consider, always nice to have lots of options.

Glen B

killadaclown wrote: »

I did it the old fashioned way and turned off the power and pulled it out of the wall. Given that the wires were quite corroded and discolored, but there were only two there. So either nothing is connected to ground, or the electrician was being cheap back in the 50's and connected the negative to the ground also. I didn't look close enough to know for sure. Just that the third wire wasn't there.

All the stuff I'm worried about is in an addition that was added in the 70's. I'm planning on checking into that too.

Ok great. I like the thought of those types of surge protectors you mentioned. Sounds like that would be a better fit with the older wiring that I have.

With bx cable there is no third (ground) wire, so you won't see one. The metal armor is employed as the ground. There is a thin, bare wire that is usually bent back and clamped. That is not a ground, but is used to help reduce the impedance of the spiraled armor. Did you notice what kind of outer jacket the wiring had ? BX cable would have been clamped to the back of the wall box (see image below).

The way to check for the presence of ground is to use a digital multimeter set to read AC volts, to check for voltage between the metal wall box and hot wire. One should also check between the box and neutral wire in case the wiring is reversed. That would not be unusual to find. Voltage between ground and hot should read ± 120V, and between neutral and ground ± 0V.

If it is determined that there is a ground present in the box, installing a "self-grounding" receptacle would give you a grounded outlet. A self-grounding receptacle has a metal tab on one mounting strap that grips one of the mounting screws, and also stick out slightly so that it presses against the cover plate, to keep that grounded as well if its metal. This is a safety feature, so that even if the receptacle becomes loose, it will still maintain the ground through the clamped screw.

Using the neutral as a ground is called a "bootleg ground" and is a dangerous practice. The only place the neutral is supposed to connect to ground is at the main electrical panel or fuse box.

Armored cable in receptacle box:


Self-grounding receptacle: