What exactly is bi-amping...?

HDTVAV
HDTVAV Posts: 80
edited February 2014 in Speakers
OK... I really am beginning to like this set-up...

Yamaha pre/pro CX-A5000 and the Yamaha 11.2 150 Watt/Channel amp MX_5000A...

What exactly is bi-amping?

Does that mean that I can take 2 of the 11 amps and connect them to make 300 Watts/Channel - for each other the 2 front speakers...?

:)
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  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 50,734
    edited February 2014
    http://sound.westhost.com/bi-amp.htm
    Political Correctness'.........defined

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  • HDTVAV
    HDTVAV Posts: 80
    edited February 2014
    F1nut wrote: »
    http://sound.westhost.com/bi-amp.htm

    OK, so this "article" says it is a good idea...

    But can it be done with the Yamaha peices I outlined above along with either the LSiM 707 (and the rest of a MsiM 5.1 set-up) - or the RTiA9 (and the rest of a RTiA 5.1 set-up)?

    :)
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  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 50,734
    edited February 2014
    I was hoping you would realize from the article that bi-amping is not possible with an AVR.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."

    President of Club Polk

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  • tonyb
    tonyb Posts: 33,001
    edited February 2014
    HDTVAV wrote: »
    OK, so this "article" says it is a good idea...

    But can it be done with the Yamaha peices I outlined above along with either the LSiM 707 (and the rest of a MsiM 5.1 set-up) - or the RTiA9 (and the rest of a RTiA 5.1 set-up)?

    :)[/QUOTE

    In short...no. Explains all this in the article. External crossover, removal of the passive crossover in the speakers, etc.
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  • soundfreak1
    soundfreak1 Posts: 3,414
    edited February 2014
    True biamping need an externial xover, controling frequencies goung to individual drivers fron different amps. See my sig.
    Main Rig:
    Krell KAV 250a biamped to mid/highs
    Parasound HCA1500A biamped to lows
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    AQ kingcobra ic's
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  • tonyb
    tonyb Posts: 33,001
    edited February 2014
    He has an amp Jess, the Yamaha 5000a is a monster but a multi channel amp that has a bi-amp switch.

    Technically, yeah....you could hook it up in what Yamaha calls bi-amping but it's not really.
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  • HDTVAV
    HDTVAV Posts: 80
    edited February 2014
    F1nut wrote: »
    I was hoping you would realize from the article that bi-amping is not possible with an AVR.

    Niether of the Yamahas I mentioned are an AVR...

    The Yamaha CX-A5000 is a pre-pro, and the MX-A5000 is an 11.2 amp...

    So, not sure what you mean...?

    :)
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  • HDTVAV
    HDTVAV Posts: 80
    edited February 2014
    tonyb wrote: »
    He has an amp Jess, the Yamaha 5000a is a monster but a multi channel amp that has a bi-amp switch.

    Technically, yeah....you could hook it up in what Yamaha calls bi-amping but it's not really.

    LOL, OK, now I am even more confused...:)

    I guess my question would be (whatever you want to call it) can I supply more power (than the 150 Watts/Channel the MX-A5000 has per channel) to the 2 main speakers in my set up - either the LSiM 707, or the RTiA9....?

    Also, if not... do you think this "monster" will drive the speakers well...?

    :)
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  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 50,734
    edited February 2014
    tonyb wrote: »
    He has an amp Jess, the Yamaha 5000a is a monster but a multi channel amp that has a bi-amp switch.

    Oops, I made an assumption. Sorry about that.
    Technically, yeah....you could hook it up in what Yamaha calls bi-amping but it's not really.

    Agreed.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."

    President of Club Polk

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  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 50,734
    edited February 2014
    HDTVAV wrote: »
    I guess my question would be (whatever you want to call it) can I supply more power (than the 150 Watts/Channel the MX-A5000 has per channel) to the 2 main speakers in my set up - either the LSiM 707, or the RTiA9....?

    Yes, but it's still not really bi-amping.

    That said, try it and hear what you think.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."

    President of Club Polk

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  • HDTVAV
    HDTVAV Posts: 80
    edited February 2014
    F1nut wrote: »
    Yes, but it's still not really bi-amping.

    What is it then... lol:)
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  • txcoastal1
    txcoastal1 Posts: 13,318
    edited February 2014
    HDTVAV wrote: »
    What is it then... lol:)
    I call it ghetto biamping
    2-channel: Modwright KWI-200 Integrated, Dynaudio C1-II Signatures
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  • HDTVAV
    HDTVAV Posts: 80
    edited February 2014
    txcoastal1 wrote: »
    I call it ghetto biamping

    LOL, geez...:)
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  • Geoff4rfc
    Geoff4rfc Posts: 2,467
    edited February 2014
    Tony and sound freak laid it on the line, you've got to do external XO's. Hooking two power sources to the speaker is "passive" bi-amping. As Skip mentioned.....futile.

    The best thing is what Jesse recommended, give it a try and hear what you think. I think pretty much everyone has at least tried passive, and I can safely say, ummmm the majority have gone back to conventional hook ups.

    You may dig it, or you may be like the rest and say, well, I tried it and nothing happened.
    Source: BRP Panasonic UB9000, CDP Emotiva ERC3 - Display: LG OLED EVO 83 C3 - Pre/Pro: Marantz 8802A - Amplification: Emotiva XPA-DR3, XPA-2 x 2, XPA-6, Speakers, Mains/2ch-Focal Kanta No2's, C-LSiM706, S-702F/X, RS-RTiA9's, WS-RTiA9's, FH-RTiA3's, Subs - Epik Empire x 2

    Cables: AudioQuest McKenzie XLR's/CDP/Amp, Carbon 48/BRP, Forest 48/Display, 2 channel speaker cable: Furutech FS Alpha 36 12AWG PCOCC Single Crystal (Douglas Connection)

    EXPERIENCE: next to nothing, but I sure enjoy audio and video MY OPINION OF THIS HOBBY: I may not be a smart man, but I know what quicksand is.
    When I was young, I was Superman but now that old age has gotten the best of me I'm only Batman
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  • HDTVAV
    HDTVAV Posts: 80
    edited February 2014
    Geoff4rfc wrote: »
    Tony and sound freak laid it on the line, you've got to do external XO's. Hooking two power sources to the speaker is "passive" bi-amping. As Skip mentioned.....futile.

    The best thing is what Jesse recommended, give it a try and hear what you think. I think pretty much everyone has at least tried passive, and I can safely say, ummmm the majority have gone back to conventional hook ups.

    You may dig it, or you may be like the rest and say, well, I tried it and nothing happened.

    OK, bear with me here, lol...

    To me it makes sense - it is better to have a separate 150 watts pushing 2 speakers and a separate 150 watts pushing the other 3 speakers - than it is having 150 Watts pushing all 5 speakers...?

    No?

    :)
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  • tonyb
    tonyb Posts: 33,001
    edited February 2014
    HDTVAV wrote: »
    OK, bear with me here, lol...

    To me it makes sense - it is better to have a separate 150 watts pushing 2 speakers and a separate 150 watts pushing the other 3 speakers - than it is having 150 Watts pushing all 5 speakers...?

    No?

    :)

    Depends....if you were talking receivers, the more channels used the less each one gets.

    Amps is a different story and contain many variables. A multi channel amp isn't going to lose power driving more than 2 speakers like a receiver would. When you do that passive bi-amp, your dedicating 150 watts to a portion of the speaker that will probably use less than 30 on the top end. The rest of that, 120 watts goes unused and is not available to the other speakers. This is dependent on amp design which like I said, varies. The jist is, the top portion of the speaker uses very little wattage compared to the lower mids and bass drivers.

    You want to bi-amp on low efficiency, harder to drive speakers, that's where you'll hear the benefits of external crossovers and bi-amp configurations....in my opinion anyway. LSIM's are not that hard to drive, nor is the A9 given any decent amplifier.

    Now if you can bridge 2 channels together so that you feed 300 watts to one speaker, that's different. Even then, amps in bridged mode don't like impendence swings so it may sound better, or worse, again it depends.
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  • soundfreak1
    soundfreak1 Posts: 3,414
    edited February 2014
    txcoastal1 wrote: »
    I call it ghetto biamping

    Look as stated we all have been thier and tried it. Try it and see for yourself than you can move on to better things.its Mental masterbation. I did it as well years ago and learned. Its part of the process or journey like trying to do 2 channel and home theater from the same system. ( oh crap, I opened up a can of worms there)
    Main Rig:
    Krell KAV 250a biamped to mid/highs
    Parasound HCA1500A biamped to lows
    Nakamichi EC100 Active xover
    MIT exp 1 ic's
    Perreaux SA33 class A preamp
    AQ kingcobra ic's
    OPPO 83 CDP
    Lehmann audio black cube SE phono pre, Audioquest phono wire (ITA1/1)
    Denon DP-1200 TT. AToc9ML MC cart.
    Monster HTS 3600 power conditioner
    ADS L1590/2 Biamped
    MIT exps2 speaker cable
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  • Geoff4rfc
    Geoff4rfc Posts: 2,467
    edited February 2014
    HDTVAV wrote: »
    OK, bear with me here, lol...

    To me it makes sense - it is better to have a separate 150 watts pushing 2 speakers and a separate 150 watts pushing the other 3 speakers - than it is having 150 Watts pushing all 5 speakers...?

    No?

    :)

    Okay, I think I know what you're getting at, You're not talking about using two different amps to power one speaker are you. You want jumpers in place on all speakers and one set of cables going to each speaker.

    If you have the power per channel to send 150w, then yes, designate one amp channel per speaker. So all speakers each get 150w. Am I close?
    Source: BRP Panasonic UB9000, CDP Emotiva ERC3 - Display: LG OLED EVO 83 C3 - Pre/Pro: Marantz 8802A - Amplification: Emotiva XPA-DR3, XPA-2 x 2, XPA-6, Speakers, Mains/2ch-Focal Kanta No2's, C-LSiM706, S-702F/X, RS-RTiA9's, WS-RTiA9's, FH-RTiA3's, Subs - Epik Empire x 2

    Cables: AudioQuest McKenzie XLR's/CDP/Amp, Carbon 48/BRP, Forest 48/Display, 2 channel speaker cable: Furutech FS Alpha 36 12AWG PCOCC Single Crystal (Douglas Connection)

    EXPERIENCE: next to nothing, but I sure enjoy audio and video MY OPINION OF THIS HOBBY: I may not be a smart man, but I know what quicksand is.
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  • Geoff4rfc
    Geoff4rfc Posts: 2,467
    edited February 2014
    Yeah, so I want to start from the beginning, answer opening question, then ask you a question.

    Bi-amping is using two power sources to power one speaker.

    Is this what you had in mind? Or do you want to use more than one power source to power all of your speakers?
    Source: BRP Panasonic UB9000, CDP Emotiva ERC3 - Display: LG OLED EVO 83 C3 - Pre/Pro: Marantz 8802A - Amplification: Emotiva XPA-DR3, XPA-2 x 2, XPA-6, Speakers, Mains/2ch-Focal Kanta No2's, C-LSiM706, S-702F/X, RS-RTiA9's, WS-RTiA9's, FH-RTiA3's, Subs - Epik Empire x 2

    Cables: AudioQuest McKenzie XLR's/CDP/Amp, Carbon 48/BRP, Forest 48/Display, 2 channel speaker cable: Furutech FS Alpha 36 12AWG PCOCC Single Crystal (Douglas Connection)

    EXPERIENCE: next to nothing, but I sure enjoy audio and video MY OPINION OF THIS HOBBY: I may not be a smart man, but I know what quicksand is.
    When I was young, I was Superman but now that old age has gotten the best of me I'm only Batman
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  • Geoff4rfc
    Geoff4rfc Posts: 2,467
    edited February 2014
    HDTVAV wrote: »

    What exactly is bi-amping?

    Does that mean that I can take 2 of the 11 amps and connect them to make 300 Watts/Channel - for each other the 2 front speakers...?

    :)

    You could but.......in theory. So you have an 11.2 amp with 150wpc. You'd designate two channels per speaker. Run one set of cables from the amp channel to the speakers upper set of terminals. Then take the other amp channel with a separate cable to the lower speaker terminals, removing the jumpers of course. So yeah it can be done, it's passive bi-amping, and you'd need to make sure that your amp can actually do that.
    Source: BRP Panasonic UB9000, CDP Emotiva ERC3 - Display: LG OLED EVO 83 C3 - Pre/Pro: Marantz 8802A - Amplification: Emotiva XPA-DR3, XPA-2 x 2, XPA-6, Speakers, Mains/2ch-Focal Kanta No2's, C-LSiM706, S-702F/X, RS-RTiA9's, WS-RTiA9's, FH-RTiA3's, Subs - Epik Empire x 2

    Cables: AudioQuest McKenzie XLR's/CDP/Amp, Carbon 48/BRP, Forest 48/Display, 2 channel speaker cable: Furutech FS Alpha 36 12AWG PCOCC Single Crystal (Douglas Connection)

    EXPERIENCE: next to nothing, but I sure enjoy audio and video MY OPINION OF THIS HOBBY: I may not be a smart man, but I know what quicksand is.
    When I was young, I was Superman but now that old age has gotten the best of me I'm only Batman
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  • squeeb
    squeeb Posts: 426
    edited February 2014
    Glad everyone cleared up what bi-amping is. I always thought it was when you couldn't decide which amp you like - so you try 'em both.
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  • SCompRacer
    SCompRacer Posts: 8,511
    edited February 2014
    Horizontal_and_Vertical_Biamping.jpg
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  • HDTVAV
    HDTVAV Posts: 80
    edited February 2014
    Geoff4rfc wrote: »
    Okay, I think I know what you're getting at, You're not talking about using two different amps to power one speaker are you. You want jumpers in place on all speakers and one set of cables going to each speaker.

    If you have the power per channel to send 150w, then yes, designate one amp channel per speaker. So all speakers each get 150w. Am I close?

    LOL, no...:)

    I am talking about taking the jumpers off of the speakers and using two of the amps of the 11.2 amp (rated at 150 watts each) - and connecting one of the 11 to the upper speaker terminals - and connecting another to the lower speaker terminals....

    Thus the upper speakers would be getting 150 watts of power - and the lower speakers would be getting 150 watts of power...

    Instead of the entire speaker getting 150 watts of power...

    Does that make sense?

    :)
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  • HDTVAV
    HDTVAV Posts: 80
    edited February 2014
    Geoff4rfc wrote: »
    You could but.......in theory. So you have an 11.2 amp with 150wpc. You'd designate two channels per speaker. Run one set of cables from the amp channel to the speakers upper set of terminals. Then take the other amp channel with a separate cable to the lower speaker terminals, removing the jumpers of course. So yeah it can be done, it's passive bi-amping, and you'd need to make sure that your amp can actually do that.

    Yes, this is EXACTLY what i am talking about....

    And yes, the amp I am currently looking at the Yamaha MX-A5000 can do this - so I am told...

    I am not sure if the Marantz MM8077 (another amp I am looking at) can do this or not....

    :)
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  • Geoff4rfc
    Geoff4rfc Posts: 2,467
    edited February 2014
    HDTVAV wrote: »
    Yes, this is EXACTLY what i am talking about....

    And yes, the amp I am currently looking at the Yamaha MX-A5000 can do this - so I am told...

    I am not sure if the Marantz MM8077 (another amp I am looking at) can do this or not....

    :)

    Yeah man, give it a whirl and see what you think. You know what you'd need to do with the interconnects right? You'd have to run a splitter from the pre to the amp for each channel you plan to do that with. I did that with two amps once and just picked up some splitters from Rat shack.
    Source: BRP Panasonic UB9000, CDP Emotiva ERC3 - Display: LG OLED EVO 83 C3 - Pre/Pro: Marantz 8802A - Amplification: Emotiva XPA-DR3, XPA-2 x 2, XPA-6, Speakers, Mains/2ch-Focal Kanta No2's, C-LSiM706, S-702F/X, RS-RTiA9's, WS-RTiA9's, FH-RTiA3's, Subs - Epik Empire x 2

    Cables: AudioQuest McKenzie XLR's/CDP/Amp, Carbon 48/BRP, Forest 48/Display, 2 channel speaker cable: Furutech FS Alpha 36 12AWG PCOCC Single Crystal (Douglas Connection)

    EXPERIENCE: next to nothing, but I sure enjoy audio and video MY OPINION OF THIS HOBBY: I may not be a smart man, but I know what quicksand is.
    When I was young, I was Superman but now that old age has gotten the best of me I'm only Batman
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  • Geoff4rfc
    Geoff4rfc Posts: 2,467
    edited February 2014
    squeeb wrote: »
    Glad everyone cleared up what bi-amping is. I always thought it was when you couldn't decide which amp you like - so you try 'em both.

    Thanks man, you just made me spit all over my monitor.........
    Source: BRP Panasonic UB9000, CDP Emotiva ERC3 - Display: LG OLED EVO 83 C3 - Pre/Pro: Marantz 8802A - Amplification: Emotiva XPA-DR3, XPA-2 x 2, XPA-6, Speakers, Mains/2ch-Focal Kanta No2's, C-LSiM706, S-702F/X, RS-RTiA9's, WS-RTiA9's, FH-RTiA3's, Subs - Epik Empire x 2

    Cables: AudioQuest McKenzie XLR's/CDP/Amp, Carbon 48/BRP, Forest 48/Display, 2 channel speaker cable: Furutech FS Alpha 36 12AWG PCOCC Single Crystal (Douglas Connection)

    EXPERIENCE: next to nothing, but I sure enjoy audio and video MY OPINION OF THIS HOBBY: I may not be a smart man, but I know what quicksand is.
    When I was young, I was Superman but now that old age has gotten the best of me I'm only Batman
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  • HDTVAV
    HDTVAV Posts: 80
    edited February 2014
    Geoff4rfc wrote: »
    Yeah man, give it a whirl and see what you think. You know what you'd need to do with the interconnects right? You'd have to run a splitter from the pre to the amp for each channel you plan to do that with. I did that with two amps once and just picked up some splitters from Rat shack.

    LOL, no, I did not know you needed to do that...

    Geez... lol, making it harder and harder all the time...

    :)
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  • HDTVAV
    HDTVAV Posts: 80
    edited February 2014
    squeeb wrote: »
    Glad everyone cleared up what bi-amping is. I always thought it was when you couldn't decide which amp you like - so you try 'em both.

    You are referring to bi-curious amping...

    I think if you bi-amp - you like both amps equally...

    LMAO:)
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  • HDTVAV
    HDTVAV Posts: 80
    edited February 2014
    Geoff4rfc wrote: »
    Yeah man, give it a whirl and see what you think. You know what you'd need to do with the interconnects right? You'd have to run a splitter from the pre to the amp for each channel you plan to do that with. I did that with two amps once and just picked up some splitters from Rat shack.

    Yes, I need a speaker cable like this.... ?

    http://www.bestbuy.com/site/rocket-33-15-speaker-cable/6013518.p?id=1218712172914&skuId=6013518&st=audioquest&cp=4&lp=4
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  • Geoff4rfc
    Geoff4rfc Posts: 2,467
    edited February 2014
    HDTVAV wrote: »
    Yes, I need a speaker cable like this.... ?

    http://www.bestbuy.com/site/rocket-33-15-speaker-cable/6013518.p?id=1218712172914&skuId=6013518&st=audioquest&cp=4&lp=4

    No, that's if you're running one channel to a single speaker and connecting all four speaker terminals.

    You'll be doubling up your runs. One set of cables from one amp channel to the upper terminals, then a separate set of cable from a second amp channel to the lower terminals.

    That way, the amp thinks it's going to two separate places which is what you want it to think.

    Then you'll need to make sure you have the IC splitter, so one RCA cable plugged into your pre's Left channel, but two RCA cables coming from that splitter going to the two designated amp channels, then repeat for the right channel.

    Personally, I've done this before, and I didn't leave it that way. I don't of many that have tried it and stayed, everyone I know that's done it has gone back to conventional hook ups.

    But, if you want the experience, go ahead.
    Source: BRP Panasonic UB9000, CDP Emotiva ERC3 - Display: LG OLED EVO 83 C3 - Pre/Pro: Marantz 8802A - Amplification: Emotiva XPA-DR3, XPA-2 x 2, XPA-6, Speakers, Mains/2ch-Focal Kanta No2's, C-LSiM706, S-702F/X, RS-RTiA9's, WS-RTiA9's, FH-RTiA3's, Subs - Epik Empire x 2

    Cables: AudioQuest McKenzie XLR's/CDP/Amp, Carbon 48/BRP, Forest 48/Display, 2 channel speaker cable: Furutech FS Alpha 36 12AWG PCOCC Single Crystal (Douglas Connection)

    EXPERIENCE: next to nothing, but I sure enjoy audio and video MY OPINION OF THIS HOBBY: I may not be a smart man, but I know what quicksand is.
    When I was young, I was Superman but now that old age has gotten the best of me I'm only Batman
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