Please Explain this to me

VR3

Calling all Wire gurus....

Bi-wiring, never going to try it...:rolleyes:

Why, well I'll tell ya why...

If I take 2 runs of Home Depot 16 awg wire ya know, and put them on each binding post of my RTi70, and run them to one set of terminals on my amp, it is going to sound absolutely no different than it did before. Why do I think this? In a custom made bi-wiring case, you have to run 2 strands of wires to the binding post, and I'm no wire company, but correct me if I am wrong. If you take them 2 sets of wires in one casing, they have to meet up somewhere along the line on the other end, beit in the banana plug casing, or the spade connector, or whatever. Them wires still have to pass the signal on to ONE piece?

If this is true, would this make the two wires NO different than one? It would make it easier to send a signal, but then if you just use a higher awg wire, wouldnt that have the same exact effect (at a much cheaper price btw)?

Maybe I am missing something, but I'm just missing the logic...

Now I have tried bi-amping, and I hear the difference, which I understand......

ken brydson

Hmmm. One set to the high post and one set to the low. Where's the cross?

VR3

no.....

If you take 2 strands of wires..........they have to go into ONE pair of terminals, that means 2 positives will have to go into 1 positive........

2 negatives will go in 1 negative.....no?

I am speaking of these 300 dollar company made bi-wire jobs

ken brydson

I'm gonna leave this to the other guys as I've never done it (my speaks aren't bi- able) I do understand HOW it works. I know the results can be subjective. Some hear a diff, some don't. I do think you're missing something. I'm sure someone will point out what that is.

madmax

You are totally missing the point here MX. If you have a run of wire there is a voltage drop across it when you draw current through it. Something around a few mV. If you draw no current then there is no voltage drop. This is natural and not a problem. Normally the bass will draw more current than a tweeter. This means if you use two separate wires then the woofer and tweeter wont interact with each other.


These numbers are **** obviously:
Lets say you have a bass beat once per second. Your voltage may be 12.4-5-5-5-12.4-5-5-5-12.4... etc. Lets say your tweeter is playing a constant sound at 3.1V. If it is bi-wired it stays at 3.1V. If it is going through a single wire it may be 3-3.1-3.1-3.1-3-3.1-3.1-3.1-3... Keep in mind the bass and treble are different frequencies so they don't really track exactly like this. In reality the bass is a waveform and the treble, since it is higher frequency rides on the bass waveform. That means it's relative DC level is changing. This is noticeable in the sound. It is almost like taking the DC voltage feeding the rest of the electronics and bouncing it around while listening to it.

Have a headache yet??

But they are hooked up at the same place you say. Yes they are but the power supply is right next to where you are hooking up. The wires aren't long enough to let this happen. Remember the resistance of the cable (longer cable or smaller guage has a higher resistance) with a current being drawn through it is what is creating the voltage change.


madmax

VR3

Ok, 300 dollar bi-wire cables....

or another 300 dollar amp?? you tell me...

madmax

It's questionable. I would only use $75 Audioquest type 4 cable and do the bi-wire thing myself. See, here is the issue, if you have the cash you spend it, if you don't, you figure it out for yourself and do it with cheaper materials. Actually what I would really do is sell the present $300 amp, buy a better one for $525 and enough cable to do my own bi-wire. That would most likely beat the two $300 amps or the $300 bi-wire and present $300 amp.
madmax

VR3

I agree...

Crazy to spend that much on wire, or maybe I just like to look at STACKS and STACKS of amps...I dunno...lol

madmax

Whatever wire you have, if you double it and bi-wire you will probably notice some cool differences! Sometimes not, depending on the speaker and amp. What I notice is an edgy sound to the tweeters goes away. No big deal when you first hear it but later if you switch back it will hit you in the face!
madmax

VR3

Well I am bi-amping now...so I don't even think about bi-wiring...lol

disneyjoe7

Madmax,

Sorry I don't understand this.

<Snip>Lets say you have a bass beat once per second. Your voltage may be 12.4-5-5-5-12.4-5-5-5-12.4... etc. Lets say your tweeter is playing a constant sound at 3.1V. If it is bi-wired it stays at 3.1V. If it is going through a single wire it may be 3-3.1-3.1-3.1-3-3.1-3.1-3.1-3... Keep in mind the bass and treble are different frequencies so they don't really track exactly like this.


So you mean Bi-Amp'd right not Bi-Wired right? If Bi-Wired to same amp different speaker inputs, Low & High. Wouldn't the voltage be the same then?

Or is it that I missed the point / misunderstand Bi-Wired vs. Bi-Amp'd?



BTW can anyone explain the signature deal on this forum?
The below works else where.

VR3

You cant attach images to sigs...

Early B.

The cheapest way to bi-wire is to DIY by purchasing some Canare 4S11 4-conductor, 14-gauge bulk speaker cable for $0.69 per foot from www.markertek.com, and buying six banana plugs for each cable run from www.partsexpress.com. A 10-foot cable run will cost about $15.

warviper

To me the whole wiring situation is this, if you have a 500.00 dollar amp 300.00 wires will not provide you with a notable sound improvement over buying a 800.00 amp. In my situation when I moved up from dual amp dual wire 50 watt Harmon Kardon to dual wire 110 watt Yamaha the sound was superbly better. I don’t see how anyone could believe the concept of separates and not believe in the fact that wires make a difference but in the end if it sounds good for you then it doesn’t matter its all about the music.

Pablo

Hey Madmax,

Thanks for the explination of bi-wire. I was thinking the same thing that Vr3MxStyler2k3 was thinking where it didn't seem to make sense running 2 wires from the amp would be any different from 1 thick one. But it's the noise IN the wire that causes a problem.

You convinced me to really try Bi-Wiring.

Question, would different gauges of wire cause an issue? I have a nice set of Monster cable now (that I wouldn't want to get rid of. I just bought them because the were 70% off, but they were still over $100). If I add a decent cable for the tweeter side of things, would I run into an issue?

TroyD

The whole premise of biwiring (biamping operates on the same principle) has nothing to do with the wire or even the amps, really. The whole premise has to do with the ability to power the tweeter separately from the mids and bass.

In a nutshell, that's it.

BDT

mantis

Do I want to touch this.............

TroyD

Has it ever stopped you from running your piehole before?

disneyjoe7

mantis,

Why not ?

I would like to hear your side of this.

danger boy

ok try this.. use a set of bi wires cables or just run to wires yourself.. from your amp/reciever. leave the speaker jumpers in place and take a listen.. ok. good sound, right?

now remove the jumper from the speaker and unplug one of the runs from the bi wire, doesn't matter at the speaker end if it's the upper or lower ones.. just do it!

here a difference now? if you did it right.. and you removed the jumper and only left the lower wires connected to the lower biding posts.. you should only hear the mid driver.. and no tweeter.. and vice versa.

so two runs of speaker wires (bi-wiring) DOES make a difference.. how much is up to your gear and your ears.

disneyjoe7

<snip>

now remove the jumper from the speaker and unplug one of the runs from the bi wire, doesn't matter at the speaker end if it's the upper or lower ones.. just do it!

here a difference now? if you did it right.. <end snip>

I hear a difference even not bi-wired, but just by removing jumper and replacing with a wire.:D

danger boy

cool..

VR3

My jumpers are laying on my desk next to me.........you can make cool little shapes with them when you're totally bored............although, I havnt figured out a way to get the middle to stay up???

If i get totally bored one day I might re-route one set of wires to the other amps and see how it does......but right now.......Ill stick to biamping....lol

mantis

disneyjoe7
my views on this topic have been well expressed in the past.The way he is looking at this,and the entire wire thing anyway,is't worth getting into it.
I will say this,you have to experience wire just as a new cd player,new amp,or whatever upgrade you do to your system.

Money is the biggest factor why most people don't get into better wires.Shame 2 as alot of them own very nice gear that could benefit.
So my last point is this.........simple and direct.The system can only perform as good as it's weakest link.You be the judge of that.

Dan

Troy,
No it hasn't but sometimes it's much better for one to experience then be instructed............I'll leave it at that.

TroyD

The whole principle behind the improvement in sound derived from biwiring or biamping has nada, zip, zilch to do with the quality of the wire.

BDT

disneyjoe7

<snip>

So my last point is this.........simple and direct.The system can only perform as good as it's weakest link.You be the judge of that.

<end_snip>

How true and I never thought that thanks. What is weakest amp, speakers, or wire...... How true :-)


BTW

Has anyone here used these cables ?

www.heartlandcables.com

VR3

Something tells me, unless I have several thousand dollars speakers, spending 500-600+ on SPEAKER WIRE, just SPEAKER WIRE is insane....

Now, I might have spent 300+ on Cables & Speaker Wire.........possibly

I've invested in probally over 500+++ ft of HD wire over the past 3 years out of all the rigs ive done, redid, etc....

I even got 50 ft of free IXOS wire from Sean and Mark! Great guys they are!

Right now, I am in the process of Eliminating the weakest link....

Bought Sean's preamp....

going to order a Denon CD Changer..... oh yeah, time to get my hands on a good one! lmao

and an ADCOM******WOO HOO******* tuner....lmao

TroyD

What are we talking about here?

Weak links or biwiring?

BDT

VR3

Weak links.....

ChrisDurano

Spendin' $150 on wire for the 70's is well worth it. $300....I don't think so.

VR3

I spent 300 or so on amps for the 70....does that count?

Atleast I can see what I bought....mmhmm

150 bucks is how much im willing to shell out for a CD Player, not for 20 foot of wire.....