looking for better tweeters

MindlessCorpse

Hi Everyone.
I have a small problem with my HT set up... well maybe more than one problem, but the one I want to tackle here is Burning out Tweeters.
I have the Polk Audio TSX550t floorstanding speakers for my front channels, and the Polk Audio CS2 for the center channel, Polk Audio Monitor 7- Series II for the surround's. I have replaced the tweets in one of the TSX550t's and the tweet in the center channel already. (set-up is a month old or so.) I know that is caused by the amount of volume I run, but the speakers are rated to handle it, they just dont. The Tweeters being (by theory) the weakest link, they give out. I have been in contact with Ken at Polk Audio tech. through email and phone. Ken has told me that the Polk does not offer any upgraded tweeters for the TSX's as they have been on market only a few months/too new. I also requested info on the speakers internal crossover set points so I could match up a different after market speaker, but this info was not provided. so...
I am asking here, What Tweeters any of you might recommend. I am not to interested in the $400 ribbons as thats too much expense. A decent Bullet type, or something might work. A speaker that has the Ferrofluid for cooling might be good ( I dont think the present ones have cooling fluid, I cant smell it)
And/or Add a capacitor ? (in the positive line) what value ?
Add an external Tweeter ?
The present tweeter hole is 2" but I could cut the hole a half inch too an inch bigger.
The AVR burning them is a Pioneer Elite SC05 with ICE D-amp. Rated at 140 watts continuous x 7'/all channels driven and according to Pioneer tech support, it will peak over 300 watts per.
I do not notice any distortion when at high volume, or clipping. Just the 'snap ' when the tweeter gives out.
My listening seated area is approx 14 feet from the fronts, and usually if peaks of 113db - 115db come around , (measured with handheld SPL meter) a tweet fails. So... I know it is from me running them too loud, but what might I change out in the cabinet to handle it?
Other things...
when I replaced the tweet in one of the TSX's I removed all speakers to have a look, I found the cabinets internal wiring is 18 gauge appliance wire (tin and copper) I dont like the wiring, and might re-wire them. The crossover appears a bit small in build. The two woofers are wired in series, so are the two mid's. The wiring is connected to the speakers by push on clips the clips are tin, and do not fit well/loose

Nightfall

My guess is the AVR is clipping even though you cannot hear it at those volumes. A dedicated amp with more power is likely the solution.

aboroth00

Holy crap... 114db at the LP. Your speakers aren't rated to go that loud at 14ft away. 250 watts will get you without room gain, about 115db at 1 meter. There is a 6db drop when you double the distance. So you're definitely pushing the speaker beyond its limits adn it's no wonder you're clipping your tweeters and blowing them. If you want that high of a SPL, look for real HT speakers not a new tweeter. There's a reason why theater speakers are horn loaded. They need to be efficient to push theater level SPL's.

Essentially there's nothing wrong with the speaker or parts. You just need something more capable of doing the SPL in your application.

tonyb

Obviously you didn't pay attention in your other threads.....or educate yourself.
Sorry if that sounds harsh, but it is what it is.

Nightfall

I'm seriously impressed that the SC can put that out. I REALLY want one now.

MindlessCorpse

aboroth00 wrote: »

Holy crap... 114db at the LP. Your speakers aren't rated to go that loud at 14ft away. 250 watts will get you without room gain, about 115db at 1 meter. There is a 6db drop when you double the distance. So you're definitely pushing the speaker beyond its limits adn it's no wonder you're clipping your tweeters and blowing them. If you want that high of a SPL, look for real HT speakers not a new tweeter. There's a reason why theater speakers are horn loaded. They need to be efficient to push theater level SPL's.

Essentially there's nothing wrong with the speaker or parts. You just need something more capable of doing the SPL in your application.

So a Horn Style Tweeter ?

MindlessCorpse

tonyb wrote: »

Obviously you didn't pay attention in your other threads.....or educate yourself.
Sorry if that sounds harsh, but it is what it is.

This is helpful how ? of course, I have not seen any of your responses to be helpful, only simple minded criticisms. Sorry if that seems harsh... oh wait, no I am not

MindlessCorpse

Nightfall wrote: »

My guess is the AVR is clipping even though you cannot hear it at those volumes. A dedicated amp with more power is likely the solution.

Hmmm.... this is most likely true.
from wiki "In the frequency domain, clipping produces harmonics at higher frequencies than the unclipped signal. This additional high frequency energy has the potential to damage a loudspeaker's tweeter via overheating."
So this leads to your solution being the likely answer.
Kind of a bummer, as when I started in this, The Pioneer elite was being touted as the one to get.
The SC05 seems an "ok " AVR, but if I were to consider a Higher power source, maybe a non-amped AVR running into Cerwin Vega Amp's ? This would be fine as this system could be moved to another room, and a new build, speakers and all for main.

F1nut

Let's see.....

Your Polk's are rated at 91dB @ 1watt. The Pioneer is rated at 130wpc, NOT 145....forget the "it will peak over 300 watts per" as that's horse hockey. Your seat is approx 14 feet from the fronts and you're claiming peaks of 113db - 115db at that distance. Yeah right, you redlined way before that. The fact you can't hear the distortion means you have no high frequency hearing left.

IT'S NOT THE SPEAKERS, YOU ARE OVERDRIVING THE AVR, PERIOD.

zane77

^this^!

tonyb

F1nut wrote: »

Let's see.....

Your Polk's are rated at 91dB @ 1watt. The Pioneer is rated at 130wpc, NOT 145....forget the "it will peak over 300 watts per" as that's horse hockey. Your seat is approx 14 feet from the fronts and you're claiming peaks of 113db - 115db at that distance. Yeah right, you redlined way before that. The fact you can't hear the distortion means you have no high frequency hearing left.

IT'S NOT THE SPEAKERS, YOU ARE OVERDRIVING THE AVR, PERIOD.

Bingo, yet we went and took lots of time explaining what would happen, and it did. So lets get this straight. Comes here asking for advice in previous threads, we take plenty of time giving it, and it's ignored....as obvious by this thread. Polks fault ? Hardly....

But you can still call CS for replacement tweeters.

BlueFox

Sometimes we need to learn things the hard way. What is bad is when somebody is to dense to learn the lesson. Isn't there a saying about those who can't learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

Thorton

F1nut wrote: »

Let's see.....

Your Polk's are rated at 91dB @ 1watt. The Pioneer is rated at 130wpc, NOT 145....forget the "it will peak over 300 watts per" as that's horse hockey. Your seat is approx 14 feet from the fronts and you're claiming peaks of 113db - 115db at that distance. Yeah right, you redlined way before that. The fact you can't hear the distortion means you have no high frequency hearing left.

IT'S NOT THE SPEAKERS, YOU ARE OVERDRIVING THE AVR, PERIOD.

+1. .

Nightfall

Like I said?

MindlessCorpse

this is nearly funny... The question was not on my method.
To ease your mind on the pioneer, call Pioneer yourself and ask, just like I did...
The question was and is... Anyone know of a more durable tweeter...
So far, the only one to give an answer was towards a Horn Type
The rest are the same ol 4 who always respond with negativity and opinions... useless info.
oh, by the way, F1nut, was it not you who was spouting off on how the Pioneer elite was all that and more?
You guys are funny.

Nightfall

When it comes to power, it is. Compared to other AVR's that is. In the general scheme of things, no - none of them are.

I don't know if I'd mess around with putting in a different tweeter. You're talking about needing to alter the crossover, hack up the cabinet, not worth it. A clipped signal will kill any tweeter, you need more power if you want to continue listening at the levels you are, not a different tweeter.

F1nut

Are you really that dense? Pfffft, off to the BOZO list with you.

seabeerob213

you came here for help. these guys have years of experience and know how, many of them have made many similar mistakes(albeit probably not on this level) because the werent fortunate enough to have this sort of guidance. they're helping you and you turn around with snarky remarks and complete disrespect for your seniors. if you dont want the help, dont ask, if you want to build some super loud club speakers, or a PA, this isnt the place, go get some peveys and an amp from the pawn-xchange and proceed to finish blowing your eardrums.

[Deleted User]

Hello MC,
Maybe I can offer some useful information. The opinions offered by CP members are correct, it's doubtful that replacing the tweeters is the best approach. This is because any change in the tweeters will significantly change the sonic balance of the speaker and it will no longer sound as good. If you used a horn style tweeter with a higher sensitivity since the rest of the system was tuned to the original moving coil type tweeter it would then sound very bright and not have a uniform frequency response. If you used a piezoelectric type tweeter, which are often used in PA speakers, the resultant sound would tend to sound harsh or brittle.
There are probably two real approaches, one would be to go to a different speaker design, looking for a higher sensitivity speaker. One that plays louder at the same volume output of the receiver, a speaker with 3dB greater sensitivity is the same as doubling the amount of power driving them. The second solution is to use the Pioneer as the control center and add one or more outboard power amplifiers. This would provide greater dynamic headroom to handle transient peaks without clipping. It is the transient spikes in your program material which overtax the amplifier section of your receiver. Separate power amplifiers have more robust power supplies and can handle transient peaks without causing tweeter damaging ultrasonic clipping.
If my car can't go as fast as I want, I have to either make the car weigh less (fiber glass body as opposed to steel) or put in a bigger engine. Either higher sensitivity speakers or higher output power. Or, be happy at the speeds I can go.
Regards, Ken

halo71

Wow, one day when you can not hear. Perhaps you will come back and read these posts. That level does not hurt you ears? Can you not hear the tweets screaming for help before they die?

boston1450

Knowing you run it too loud ? TURN IT DOWN or repair damaged parts. Its a NO-BRAINER solution..over 110db's cool

tonyb

Eh....maybe in retrospect I was a tad harsh on my comments. I'm not usually one to jump down throats of newbies looking to learn. Providing they want to learn.

I guess after many of us took time trying to explain stuff, and I even said the OP wasn't grasping concepts and encouraged him to get his read on, educate himself a bit, it's a bit aggravating seeing this thread.

Ken posted a good response above, wish mine was more along that line but the OP should take note of it. My apologies for being a bit cranky. That said, I'll leave the rest of you to deal with it.

treitz3

Hello, MindlessCorpse. I think one of the first things that you need to do is train your ears to what clipping is. You have already experienced what the end result of clipping will do, so I don't need to get into that. The analogy of "redlining" the speakers is true and you had past that point way before the tweeters went to the audio gods. Friendly advice, when you hear any sort of distortion, turn it down a notch and enjoy what you have at that level. Otherwise, you will be forced to follow the aforementioned advice and get a speaker/amplifier combo that can handle the SPL's you are wanting to achieve.....which BTW, is way too loud if you value your hearing.

Tom

treitz3

MindlessCorpse wrote: »

I do not notice any distortion when at high volume, or clipping.

Trust me, it's there. You just need to train your ears on what to listen for.

Tom

leftwinger57

MC,I would seriously listen to these guys. First off if you asked for advice prior and didn't heed the warnings shame on you. I also have told this so many times it bothers me already but I also pushed my avr too much and thankfully the avr clipped,shut down in protection mode and came back. My speakers were shout enough even as smalls so the solution was adding an external amp.All problems solved and if and when you do this then if not still carefull you will blow all your speakers not just the tweets, you seem to abuse your stuff.At the time of my clipping I had the volume at -9/10 and now it stays around - 28/29 when I just use my H/T and the amp is now part and parcel my 2-chl rig.Yamaha RX-V665 @90 wpc not nearly enough and found out the hard way.

westmassguy

I had a similar situation as you. I bought what I thought was a powerful AVR, also a Pioneer, and within milliseconds of watching one of my favorite action films, my AVR thankfully shut down. No damage was done to the AVR or my Speakers. I was given solid advice by the same people that are giving you advice. Get an outboard power amp for the front left and right. The limited power available from the AVR will now be distributed to the center and however many surround you have. With my little Carver amp, my 2As are happy, and my AVR supplies my center and 4 (actually 8) surrounds with all the power they need. Just do it, and for god's sake, don't change out the tweeters to some awful horns and destroy some very nice Polks.