rings are in I think I'm done

leftwinger57

I got Larry's Rings today at 3:30pm and got started to taking the 2Bs apart. Because of my back I used a small strong end table as my work surface.After pulling the speakers I collected all the new machine screws and painted the rings w/ my world famous flat black and the can was on empty so no major coating.All templates were form fitting and I had no problem ,but I almost bent the passive template but caught myself before that mistake.Having all the tools ready and new when needed like the drill bit is a time saver and just makes life easier,like the Boy Scouts ( be prepared).The tweeter clams on the halfshell went in w/o a problem at all.The mids were a bit of a struggle w/ the middle wood brace in the cabinet just being a PINTA and needed a bit of chiseling then they slipped in.The passives were no problem and I forgot to mention every single hole did match w/ the original so there is no Swiss Cheese under the new Aramacell.After a vaccum job and another wipe of 409 and Windex on the drivers I buttoned them up.I did just get done w/o a break so I can't let them go now ,neighbors are in.So, for me the only thing left will be the x-overs and that will not be untill well into the next year and for what I have into these so far $250 and change I'm pretty damned pleased.
Mods done

---

Bleached and stained tops (cosmetic for sure but they needed it)>>Dynamatt Extreme all basket spars and passive rears>>Liquid Nails sealed interior joints>>>Black Hole-5 behind tweeters and mids>>replaced silver domes w/ RDO-194-1 Tweeters>>>removed polyswiches and installed Mills 0.5 resistors>>rerolled and replace polyfill>>>tightened all speakers w/ machine type screws w/ a rotation like a pit stop.
If Larry is still doing this and I think I got lucky make sure you have the right size allen head real small don't know the size and I was lucky to have it.The work is top notch and it's a shame something like this can't be shown.

oldmodman

That really turned out great!

Now let us know how much it improved the sound.

I have my rings and a couple of other parts but am saving up for the X-over mods on my Polks.

Summerwind2

you didn't waste any time, what is the cost on the rings? Good job!

leftwinger57

Tomorrow is the day I will air them out w/ the neighbors home now. I will tell you I had to lower them for tv football game watching so I can imagine the cabinets are air tight and sealed.The test will be on some CDs I have planned with some real critical listening to do.I'll report back late in the day. Darqueknights tutorials were so helpfull in all kinds of ways.What tools to use/not to use,it was like the old paint by numbers show on tv with his great pictures in sequence.Also have everything ready and mainly a common sense tool handling job more than anything really technical but I still had my pages of the speaker layouts and color coded wires which kept the guess work out of it. This anyone can do.Probably jumping the gun here but doing this is without a doubt the thing to do if you can afford it,if it was your goal for a SDA setup to begin with, and of course depending on condition how far to take them.The Handbook itself lists mods and there improvements and like someone else here already said there are not that many speaker companies that will still stock parts for speakers that have been discontinued for some 30 years now.

leftwinger57

Tomorrow is the day I will air them out w/ the neighbors home now. I will tell you I had to lower them for tv football game watching so I can imagine the cabinets are air tight and sealed.The test will be on some CDs I have planned with some real critical listening to do.I'll report back late in the day. Darqueknights tutorials were so helpfull in all kinds of ways.What tools to use/not to use,it was like the old paint by numbers show on tv with his great pictures in sequence.Also have everything ready and mainly a common sense tool handling job more than anything really technical but I still had my pages of the speaker layouts and color coded wires which kept the guess work out of it. This anyone can do.Probably jumping the gun here but doing this is without a doubt the thing to do if you can afford it,if it was your goal for a SDA setup to begin with, and of course depending on condition how far to take them.The Handbook itself lists mods and there improvements and like someone else here already said there are not that many speaker companies that will still stock parts for speakers that have been discontinued for some 30 years now.

leftwinger57

SORRY FOR THE DOUBLE POST.Must be getting tired.I'll leave this till Friday

hochpt21

Very nice work. They look great.

I'll be tackling this job in the next few weeks as I just picked up a set of rings for my 2A's.

I hope mine goes as smooth as your seemed to.

leftwinger57

One good thing about cookie cutter line stuff the demensions should really not change unless well advertised.You will a have to speak to Larry to see if he's still into mass producing these things or has a few sets of all kinds of models.P/M him1st and if you or I get an ok for giving out the price I have no problem with that. I do not know the guy, only through the forum and I do not think I got any favors, or cut rate prices for anything.It's less than doing x-overs if that helps any.The real deal maker was changing out the sl2000 to the RDO 194. No comparison.Again refer back to the 2010 tutorial and have all of what you need and it's an easy mod to do.

cnh

Very nice work! But you do realize that this reinforces the stereotype other forums have about those "nuts" over at C Polk who think 30 year old speakers are...well you know! And all they can talk about is how to endlessly tweak and restore these mostly forgotten gimmicky speakers from the 80s? A bunch of old farts stuck in some time warp who are in total denial and live in a "bubble"! lol

I've seen all the things we do, you've done, lambasted so many many times that it sometimes does make you wonder if we are not all just "crazy"! And then again, perhaps, NOT!

Enjoy the fruit of your labors! Well done!

cnh

F1nut

cnh wrote: »

Very nice work! But you do realize that this reinforces the stereotype other forums have about those "nuts" over at C Polk who think 30 year old speakers are...well you know! And all they can talk about is how to endlessly tweak and restore these mostly forgotten gimmicky speakers from the 80s? A bunch of old farts stuck in some time warp who are in total denial and live in a "bubble"! lol

I've seen all the things we do, you've done, lambasted so many many times that it sometimes does make you wonder if we are not all just "crazy"! And then again, perhaps, NOT!

I was just thinking about "those" people the other night. I thought it would be fun to set up some fully modded SDA's behind an acoustically transparent curtain and have some of "those" folks give them a listen, get their impressions and then show them what they were listening to. I'm betting more than a few would be looking to purchase a pair of these outdated speakers the next day.

nooshinjohn

Agreed Jesse and CNH... These speakers have evolved so much over the years that they actually qualify as DIY speakers at this point, IMHO.

The only things left untouched are the cabinets, and drivers.

Hats off to Polk and CP for developing these mods over many years of effort. Nothing else is like them, for now anyway.

drumminman

+3

The proof is in the listening. As big as they are I've never experienced speakers simply disappearing and getting out of the way of the music.

Mike Reeter

Your 2B's have taken on a new life, they look good. You will have to go back and slightly retighten all the machined screws in the driver baskets as the Armocell will compress a little in time.

Once you have replaced the original x-over components and get some spikes under them, you will truly be hearing a day/night difference, enjoy!

leftwinger57

Mike,when the cabinets were up ended I did notice some rounded floor sliders .I did not pull one out to check on size for the spikes.
Now the evalutation,keep in mind no scientist like Mhardy at work here.Instantly I can hear a tightness and bass punch that was not there before. Yes I heard a differance when I first did the Dynamatting but not to this point.Again the volume control usually sat at the 10 o' clock pos and was loud enough,and already I had to adjust it w/turning it down.By far the best or most obvious improvement for me are the tweeters. The sl 2000s were starting to break up and sounding a bit scratchy at times and on all different music.Today I 'm going through the gamit of my tuneage that I have and was so pleased playing older Stones tunes like Wild Horses, Angie and older blues where they were not using 24 track recording yet.The seperation for instruments was amazing drum rim shots, tamborine splashes and other percussion instruments I never heard before but vocals were centralized. I also played heavily dubbed music like Modanna, Dido, and a wonderfully recorded album Adele 21. Mark Knopfler Sailing To Philadelpia never sounded so good with production values always coming front and center. The most disappointing mod if that's the right word is the Black Hole-5.When I 1st installed the stuff it just sounded like there was an open area and not in a good way. After doing the rings, replacing all the Armaflex and resetting the polyfill the correct way with it rolled up and none passing the below the mid woofer line I thinks it's now dialed in.I was lucky here because of the initial cost of the speakers themselves.For somebody to pay $2/3/400 for a pair I don't how fast one would jump in and do the mods.Remember I was the biggest disbeliever of them all, how could such a good sounding speaker sound even better? Well with taking some advice from those in the know, some cash, some dexterity with tools and some minor knowledge of electronics a 27 y/o great sounding speaker are that much better and they are.Thanks to Larry for the rings,Jesse for the woodworking help, Tony for squaring me away(attitude wise),Ray for his amazing tutorials where one could almost build a set of these from watching those. Got the Grateful Dead Europe 72 blasting away so if you guys don't mind I'll go back and listen some more smilyling all the way.........LEW

nspindel

leftwinger57 wrote: »

Got the Grateful Dead Europe 72 blasting away so if you guys don't mind I'll go back and listen some more smilyling all the way.........LEW

You've not heard Europe '72 till you listen to it on vinyl!

Congrats on your 2B's. They will continue to blow your mind as you listen to more and more music that you thought you were familiar with.

Dawgfish

Awesome! Great job! It's really sweet when everything comes together. I have to admit when reading some of your earlier posts about whether the mods would make a difference or not, I thought you were a lost cause. My apologies and thank you for proving me wrong!

DarqueKnight

cnh wrote: »

But you do realize that this reinforces the stereotype other forums have about those "nuts" over at C Polk who think 30 year old speakers are...well you know! And all they can talk about is how to endlessly tweak and restore these mostly forgotten gimmicky speakers from the 80s? A bunch of old farts stuck in some time warp who are in total denial and live in a "bubble"! lol

I've seen all the things we do, you've done, lambasted so many many times that it sometimes does make you wonder if we are not all just "crazy"! And then again, perhaps, NOT!

I recall one person on another forum, who used to be a member of this forum, who ridiculed the idea of me using 20+ year old SDA's with top of the line electronics. The person doing the ridiculing was using DIY kit loudspeakers that he assembled and he drove his DIY loudspeakers with a pro amp. What is the difference between someone doing a DIY speaker and someone taking a commercial speaker and optimizing it? They are both DIY projects.

I have to wonder about the overall life happiness and satisfaction of anyone who would question the tweaking and restoration of a classic loudspeaker design. It is as if they cannot grasp or do not want to grasp the concept that an "old" item can be brought up to contemporary performance standards.

I think there is a certain mentality that needs to condescend other people in order to feel good about themselves. They typically make themselves look foolish in the process of their condescension. Some of the same people who scoff at using modified 30 year old speakers are:

1. Living in houses 30+ years old.
2. Living in bodies 30+ years old.
3. Driving carefully restored cars from the 1970s.
4. Having sex with the woman they married 30+ years ago.

The point being that "age" does not necessarily equate to "outdated", especially if the core item is continually upgraded.

In the case of SDA's, the core design was decades ahead of 1980's amplifier and electrical component technology The noise characteristics of 1980's amplifiers and electrical components did not facilitate optimum stereo imaging and sound staging. Therefore, it is only fairly recently that the design goals of SDA loudspeakers could be fully realized.

leftwinger57

Ray, and others out there.I always keep wondering about this scenario.Remember I had those Infinity SM112s that ALL here said were comprable to frat house speakers and I was really insulted at the time. Looking at those cabinets and their bull nose fronts the mini risers and the 3-way system I thought they were ok but were certainly lacking in the bass department but have heard much worse. So my question is can you improve on something like those Infinitys using some of the same technics used here for modding.Dynamatting, adding insulation and maybe Armaflex or is it just lipstick on a pig and that's all it will ever be. BTW I gave them to a friend of mine who retired from HomeLand Security small arms instructor and was his gift from me.He loves them.

DarqueKnight

leftwinger57 wrote: »

So my question is can you improve on something like those Infinitys using some of the same technics used here for modding.Dynamatting, adding insulation and maybe Armaflex or is it just lipstick on a pig and that's all it will ever be.

How much something can be improved depends on how good the design was to begin with. Note that with SDA's, we are not changing the basic design of the speaker, we are just using better and better materials as parts quality technology improves. In effect, our modifications are not "changing" the speaker's design and function, rather we are remediating compromises that the manufacturer had to make at the time of production either due to cost constraints or parts availability.

dpowell

DarqueKnight wrote: »

Some of the same people who scoff at using modified 30 year old speakers are:

1. Living in houses 30+ years old.
2. Living in bodies 30+ years old.
3. Driving carefully restored cars from the 1970s.
4. Having sex with the woman they married 30+ years ago.

The point being that "age" does not necessarily equate to "outdated", especially if the core item is continually upgraded.

I couldn't help but chuckle at the thought. I know how #'s 1 and 3 are continually upgraded using 'better and better materials as parts quality technology improves' but how about #'s 2 and 4?

BTW, thanks to DK and all the others who have contributed to the SDA upgrade knowledge. I know I certainly have benefited from it and truly enjoy my modded SDA's.

DarqueKnight

F1nut wrote: »

I was just thinking about "those" people the other night. I thought it would be fun to set up some fully modded SDA's behind an acoustically transparent curtain and have some of "those" folks give them a listen, get their impressions and then show them what they were listening to. I'm betting more than a few would be looking to purchase a pair of these outdated speakers the next day.

A fellow on another forum was astonished when he realized the retail value of the electronics, source components and cabling driving my SDA SRS 1.2TLs. To paraphrase him "It is obvious you can afford whatever you want, but why those speakers?"

I'm still looking around for something "better" as opposed to something "different". The problem I consistently run into with high end speakers is imaging instability and sound stage instability. I don't like having to hold my head in a vise-like position in order to prevent the sound stage from collapsing or to prevent some other equally annoying sonic aberration from appearing. That is what I had to do when listening to a $35,000 pair of Dunlavy speakers and that is what I had to do when listening to a $24,000 pair of B&W speakers.

For me, the main performance goal of stereophonic reproduction is a large and stable three dimensional sound stage with palpable imaging. The best clarity and detail in the world does not mean anything to me if the sound stage collapses into a muddled mess or if the tonal quality significantly changes if I move my head 0.000002 inch to the left, right, up, or down.

The following quote from the December 2013 Stereophile review of the Wilson Audio Alexia loudspeaker ($48,500 per pair):

"When Peter McGrath (Wilson Audio sale manager) left, I began my own listening. Pink noise sounded smooth and uncolored when I was sitting in my chair on the exact listening axis set by McGrath, using the position adjustments for the tweeter and midrange modules and the precise amount of tow-in he'd settled on. However, if I moved slightly above or below that position, a narrow band of brightness became apparent.

DarqueKnight

dpowell wrote: »

I couldn't help but chuckle at the thought. I know how #'s 1 and 3 are continually upgraded using 'better and better materials as parts quality technology improves' but how about #'s 2 and 4?

Go to Google Images and search on "nice looking 50+ year old bodies". Diet, exercise, dietary supplements, and a non-stressful lifestyle can result in superior body parts quality: better bone density, higher muscle mass, lower body fat, improved cognitive ability, etc.

Did the 50+ year old bodies you found from the search above put a lot of 20 year old bodies to shame?

mdaudioguy

F1nut wrote: »

I was just thinking about "those" people the other night. I thought it would be fun to set up some fully modded SDA's behind an acoustically transparent curtain and have some of "those" folks give them a listen, get their impressions and then show them what they were listening to. I'm betting more than a few would be looking to purchase a pair of these outdated speakers the next day.

Like Folger's crystals.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6HGKJHpQkfI&feature=youtube_gdata_player

DarqueKnight

F1nut wrote: »

I'm betting more than a few would be looking to purchase a pair of these outdated speakers the next day.

But since they've been so mean, we will wait a very long time until we tell them all the inside secret knowledge of how to make their speakers sound like the ones behind the curtain.:twisted:

nooshinjohn

DarqueKnight wrote: »

I recall one person on another forum, who used to be a member of this forum, who ridiculed the idea of me using 20+ year old SDA's with top of the line electronics. The person doing the ridiculing was using DIY kit loudspeakers that he assembled and he drove his DIY loudspeakers with a pro amp. What is the difference between someone doing a DIY speaker and someone taking a commercial speaker and optimizing it? They are both DIY projects.

Good ol'e jujubee... I wonder if he lurks from time to time.

DarqueKnight

nooshinjohn wrote: »

Good ol'e jujubee... I wonder if he lurks from time to time.

I assume your question was rhetorical considering the massive hard-on he had/has for this forum.

nooshinjohn

Purely meant with a healthy dose of sarcasm tinged with a dash of distain DK. His contributions here were not worth the time it took for him to type them.

F1nut

I kind of miss laughing at juju, he was so completely wrong about everything audio related.

Toolfan66

DSkip wrote: »

You've always been messed up in the head. Missing juju just confirms that.

haha!!

DarqueKnight

F1nut wrote: »

I kind of miss laughing at juju, he was so completely wrong about everything audio related.

You can still visit those other forums he inhabits and continue to get your laugh on.

nooshinjohn

DarqueKnight wrote: »

You can still visit those other forums he inhabits and continue to get your laugh on.

F1 goes by the user name "cheezy" on those other sites.