Stereo image and soundstage. Initial setup and adjustments.

Alan_r

As I continue down the path of audio enlightenment I have begun really working with my speakers so as to create the most accurate and believable sound-stage and image that my current system is capable of producing. I started out with fairly decent equipment, Marantz 5001 to a NAD C 740 and ending with Polk RT600's.

The Marantz has been reviewed as being a very good CD player for the price. Decent DAC and efficient transport. The signal then travels through some low end Monster cables (working on fixing that) to the NAD C 740, The C 740 has earned some good reviews in the past for it's very under rated power and neutral amplifier. I always run it in the tone bypass mode to keep the signal clean. I am still using the factory stock jumpers in between the preamp and amplifier section. (Not sure if I should upgrade this or not). The signal then travels through a set of gold plated banana plugs. They are not expensive but feel solid and of decent quality. Currently I am running Amazon basics 16AWG wire to another set of gold plated banana plugs to my Polk RT600's. The wire will be upgraded to KnuKonceps 10AWG Kord Ultra wire once I have the final position of the speakers nailed down. Ultimately, all the cables will most likely be upgraded to Kimber products.

To set up the speakers, I first found an area where I wanted my listening position to be. The room is 16' x 30' with vaulted ceilings. The couch is centered in the room and against the 30' wall looking towards the other 30' wall. A functioning fireplace is dead center in front of the listening position. The fireplace projects into the room about 3'. I tried to keep the speakers away from the wall as much as possible but the location of the TV and its viewing angle keeps me from pulling them out any more than 8 3/4”. I was able to keep them off the sides of the fireplace by 13” each. Not ideal, but at least I could keep the distances front to back different from left to right. I am experimenting with subwoofers and I have not positioned the subwoofer yet.

I then took a piece of string and taped it to a spot pretty much where my ears will be when seated and kicked back a bit. It is accurate to within 1/8”. I then ran the string out to the speakers and positioned them exactly the same distance from my ears, accurate to 1/16”. I then leveled the speakers with their adjustable feet side to side and front to back. The tweeters are right at ear level when seated comfortably. This is accurate to within 2”.

I chose two different CD's I have because I was able to see how the band's were set up during recording. Louis Armstrong, What a Wonderful World and Lucky Peterson's, Move. Both of these CD's have a pretty good and detailed sound stage that when set up correctly, has both performers located center stage, supporting instruments to the left and right. Percussion is to the rear and slightly right.

I then sat down with a cup of coffee and prepared myself for perfectly measured out audio bliss. Or not. Immediately I noticed that L. Armstrong was located somewhere off to the left of the stage and as if he was sitting down. I then checked this by playing the other CD. L. Peterson's album has him a little more to the right than L. Armstrong when set up properly. In this case he too, was off to the left in a big way. I also noticed that the music did not have that airy, open feeling that you get when listening to a stereo.

The manual for the RT600's has the speakers set up straight ahead. It says to toe the speakers in if needed so that's what I did next. I kept moving them 1/8” at a time until they were firing directly at my listening position. The sound was better but the placement of the musicians' was still wrong.

I had already marked the exact speaker position with masking tape so I was able to reference them to the original position as they were moved. Next, I started playing with the distance to my ears to try and correct the timing, which I suspected was what was causing the image problems. I moved the right speaker towards my position and the left speaker away from the listening position in 1/4”increments. It was only when I did this that the stage shifted right. I was able to put Louis in the fireplace. When I closed my eyes, he was almost where he should be. I was able to determine which way he favored and faced when playing his instrument. It was a little low but pretty close. Lucky P was now where he was supposed to be as well. Albeit a little low. It was good enough for one days work and I continued to enjoy many albums through the evening.

The next day I re measured everything and started tweaking again. I had noticed a few positions that really created that airy sense of width. But the image was never right when this happened. I know this system is capable of providing that. One thing I have not done yet, (can't believe this eluded me) is to adjust the speaker separation to match the distance to the listening position, thereby creating the triangle. I will play with this tomorrow, however, I may run into limiting factors that may not allow me to move the speakers further away from each other. For example, our sectional creates an L shape. The love seat portion will eventually block the sound from the left speaker if I keep moving the speaker further away from the right. As of now, it is a clear shot with nothing but a coffee table between me and the speakers. I found it strange that the sound would be so much better NOT having the speakers an equal distance to my ears. As of right now, they are not the same, the image is almost correct but a little low. The stage seems compressed and lacks a really open and airy sound. It's a little airy, noticeably so, but not just “right”. Any suggestions, pointers or comments? Alan.

CoolJazz

You're doing everything right! You're LISTENING!

This will lead you to the right setup eventually. Every room has it's own set of things you try to get around to get to that place where the performers appear where they should be with the ability to have depth and "air" around them. Using string and marking a position is super way to work. The moving a small amount and listening is very smart. You certainly are on your way.

Even though you think you can't, you should try pulling the speakers out further and listening for what it gives you. Also, beware of the reflection of the TV front. The modern flat profile throws a heck of a reflection! Toss a heavy blanket over it for a minute and see what you hear. Read up on suggested room spacing and try it briefly if nothing else to see what they get you. They have a real scientific basis behind them.

Look forward to hearing your experiences and progress!

CJ

treitz3

Hello and good morning to you, Alan. I love the fact that you are actually LISTENING. My hat is off to you, sir. With that said, here is a list of various speaker setup guides to assist you in achieving the best of what your current setup can offer. I hope this helps.

CARDAS room/speaker setup

http://www.cardas.com/room_setup_main.php

TAD speaker set-up

http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?8350-TAD-owners-speaker-setup


THIEL listening room improvements

http://thielaudio.com/THIEL_Site05/Pages/FAQs/faqplacement.html


MARTIN LOGAN speaker setup

http://www.martinlogan.com/pdf/manuals/manual_scenario.pdf


GENESIS ADVANCED TECHNOLOGIES speaker setup

http://www.genesisloudspeakers.com/whitepaper/Genesis_Loudspeaker_Setup_Procedure.pdf


AUDIO PHYSIC speaker setup

http://audiophysic.de/aufstellung/beispiel_e.html


WILSON AUDIO speaker set-up

http://www.wilsonaudio.com/pdf/manual_soph2.pdf


EVOLUTION ACOUSTICS speaker setup

http://www.evolutionacoustics.com/support/speaker-placement/
and go to the support drop down

Tom

Alan_r

Hello all and thanks for the pointers so far. I have run into a problem and maybe someone can point me in the right direction. I have been troubleshooting a particular problem with imaging. I have managed to get the center musicians centered while sitting in my chair. For the most part anyway. But by doing so I lost much of the depth. The drummers don't seem to be behind the main singer. This also went hand in hand with the perceived width of the stage. The whole ensemble seems compressed from left to right.

The first thing I noticed was that there is no way I can make the distance on the triangle equal. I can equal the two sides of the triangle, but the distance between the speakers cannot equal the distance to my listening position. The distance from myself to the speakers is quite long. Its the only place I am allowed to set. The speakers are on either side of the fireplace and when I try to match the distance to my other two sided it becomes impossible. The left speaker would be in front of a door and the right would be in the TV. Not to mention, the image seems to evaporate the further apart the speakers are. Massive compromises have been made to correct the timing but I just can't seem to get it all. If the center becomes perfectly clear and accurate, I lose much of he airy spaciousness that creates the sensation of being in a much bigger place venue. All in all, it's not where I want to end up

I've checked polarity, changed older cables for 10awg . I even ensured the speaker cables were the sane length, 18' each. Believe it or not, the wire' seemed to pull the center stage out a bit and made the upper dynamic of the fronter stage more believable. Maybe...but I noticed.

Suggestions? Thanks, Alan.

treitz3

Good evening, Alan. The drummers being behind the singers will always be recording dependent. Would it be possible for you to provide some pictures to help us help you?

Tom

F1nut

I've checked polarity, changed older cables for 10awg . I even ensured the speaker cables were the sane length, 18' each. Believe it or not, the wire' seemed to pull the center stage out a bit and made the upper dynamic of the fronter stage more believable. Maybe...but I noticed.

Speaker cables and IC can make all the difference in the world as you are finding out. I suggest you get your ears on some MIT cables.

tonyb

Pics would help immensely.

F1nut

tonyb wrote: »

Pics would help immensely.

I thought you already knew what the cables looked like. :cheesygrin:

steveinaz

Keep in mind that soundstaging, "air", imaging, seperation are also going to be a slave of the source recording.

tonyb

Good point Steve, speaker placement is only going to do so much. What your using for source, material, cables, it all plays into what you hear. Plus the RT600 Speakers as good as they were, may be in need of some updating. Even then, they still have their limitations.

I would follow F1nuts suggestion of getting some better cables in the mix. You won't find too many fans of Monster around here. The Marantz and the Nad are solid, your weak link as of now is the cables.

erniejade

treitz3 wrote: »

Hello and good morning to you, Alan. I love the fact that you are actually LISTENING. My hat is off to you, sir. With that said, here is a list of various speaker setup guides to assist you in achieving the best of what your current setup can offer. I hope this helps.

CARDAS room/speaker setup

http://www.cardas.com/room_setup_main.php

TAD speaker set-up

http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?8350-TAD-owners-speaker-setup


THIEL listening room improvements

http://thielaudio.com/THIEL_Site05/Pages/FAQs/faqplacement.html


MARTIN LOGAN speaker setup

http://www.martinlogan.com/pdf/manuals/manual_scenario.pdf


GENESIS ADVANCED TECHNOLOGIES speaker setup

http://www.genesisloudspeakers.com/whitepaper/Genesis_Loudspeaker_Setup_Procedure.pdf


AUDIO PHYSIC speaker setup

http://audiophysic.de/aufstellung/beispiel_e.html


WILSON AUDIO speaker set-up

http://www.wilsonaudio.com/pdf/manual_soph2.pdf


EVOLUTION ACOUSTICS speaker setup

http://www.evolutionacoustics.com/support/speaker-placement/
and go to the support drop down

Tom

I got a lot of page cannot be displayed on the links. Darn.

treitz3

That's weird. I repaired the link to Theil's FAQ before I posted but apparently it did not work after posting. Try this one >>> http://www.thielaudio.com/faq/ and click on "How can I improve the sound of my listening room?"

As for the rest of them, I just checked them out and they all work on my end. Which one's are you having trouble with?

Tom

Alan_r

Thanks for the pointers. I will post some pictures of my listening area soon. Damn laptop died on me. I agree that imaging and sound stage are very dependent on the recording. When I make a small change to the set up, I always listen to a few albums that I enjoy. Albums that I listen to enough to know how I want it to sound. Is that accurate? Probably not. But over the course of 5 or 6 albums I can tell if something is right. I did learn today that there can be too much space. At certain locations, the stereo effect can be too much. It then sounds like an echo. This imaging thing can get arduous and I find that I have to take breaks. I'll get it eventually though. I am not convinced that my RT600's are not capable of a decent image. Though they were bought at a bargain, these speakers were in excellent condition. The drivers are extremely tight. I think that these came from a house where they were not used much. I have found that the bass and mid-range has improved with the hours I have put through them. I know they haven't been new in a long time but they really are improving. I think I really did get some low hour speakers. As another point of reference, I bought some new drivers of Ebay as a "just in case" and I can assure you, the new drivers feel the same and have the same (close) ohm readings as the drivers installed in the speaker.

The one thing that I do find confusing though is that there does not seem to be any "standard" adjustment techniques regarding speaker placement. As in; "if the artist is further left than they should be, move the right speaker right." I like measurable, consistent things, and I can't do that with speaker placement..

More to follow, Alan.

tonyb

Alan_r wrote: »

The one thing that I do find confusing though is that there does not seem to be any "standard" adjustment techniques regarding speaker placement. As in; "if the artist is further left than they should be, move the right speaker right." I like measurable, consistent things, and I can't do that with speaker placement..

More to follow, Alan.

Alan,

There can be no standard for what you describe as every room is different, and their are too many variables that go into what your describing. You said yourself you are limited in placement options, most of us are too so you do the best you can with what you have to work with. Set them up where they sound best to you and then work on other parts of your system. Speaker placement, while important, is still just a piece of the puzzle.

Alan_r

Follow up with some new information.

Finally got an old laptop up and working while I shop for another, so pictures will be posted shortly. In addition, I have some interesting observations that someone may be able to explain.

I had changed the connection of my subwoofer. The PSW505 has stereo speaker level inputs, stereo line level (RCA) inputs and a single LFE input. The NAD C 740 does not have a sub out feature. I bought some twisted Y cables that allowed me to intercept the signal from the pre amp and send that signal to the sub while sending the same signal to the amp. I played around with this for a few days and no matter what I did, I couldn't get it to “sound right” with my mains. It did not matter which way the phase switch was thrown, the sub just didn't blend well. I spent a few hours listening to a 20-20k test tone and adjusted the subs crossover until the transition from my mains to the subwoofer was seamless with no audible (to my ear) db loss. It really helped in making the sub reinforce the sounds. However, even with this done, it still did not match to me. It was more in the tempo and rhythm if thats even possible. So, while reading some articles about really expensive subwoofers, I found that certain high end manufacturers recommend using the speaker level inputs on the sub so that the subwoofer receives the same signal as the main speakers at exactly the same time. I have a really hard time believing that this makes any difference in the short runs we typically have in home audio systems. My logic is that maybe in 500' cable runs, but not in 20'. Regardless, I decided to rewire my speakers and run the speaker cables from my amp to the sub, then from the sub to the speakers. It worked. I don't know how. Or why for that matter. I went back to the original setup three or four different times and with the RCA hookup it was off. Then with the speaker level hookup it sounded like the sub was part of the same system. I am baffled. Though baffled I can assure you that I am leaving the speaker level inputs hooked up.

This brings me to my next observation. I have been doing a ton of research (I'm one of those weird people who can spend hours reading about the specifications and performance of copper vs. silver regarding signal loss and extension) on speaker cables and interconnects. I am not sold on cables that cost more than my Grand Cherokee. Having said that, I am interested in high quality pieces of hardware that will be with me for the long haul. I had originally decided on low level Kimber products though now I am considering Blue Jean- at a substantial cost difference. Anyway, in the meantime I had bought 100' of Amazon Basics, 16AWG cable and standard, no name gold plated banana plugs. I also bought 100' of KnuKonceptz Kord Kable 10AWG. Very quality wire from what I can tell. The plan was to use the Amazon wire for set up, being that I would be cutting it all up and experimenting with speaker placement and such, then once I was satisfied, cut the 10AWG at exact lengths for use until I felt like spending money on higher quality stuff. After getting the mains mostly right, I cut the 10AWG, hooked it up and moved on. Later, when I moved the sub around and decided to switch to speaker level inputs I found that the 10AWG Kord Kable was to short to reach the left speaker. Pissed off I sat down and decided how to fix my screw up of $0.87 per foot wire.

Now, one of the problems that I was having was that with the 10AWG cable, and to a lessor extent, the 16AWG Amazon wire, the sound stage always seemed to be a little to the left. I listened to a whole bunch of albums and no matter what, with my eyes closed the lead singer always was a foot or two left of the center of the speakers. No adjustment seemed to correct this. Needless to say it was quite perplexing and really tested my patience.

So, having figured out how to fix the short wire problem. I put it into action. First, I cut the 10AWG KordK to two exactly the same length and ran them from my amp output to the speaker level inputs of the subwoofer. Then I cut one more pair of 10AWG KordK and ran it from the speaker level subwoofer output to the right speaker. I then took a 14' length of Amazon 16AWG, spliced and soldered another 6' length of it to it and connected it to the left speaker. I was quite mad at myself for **** up 200' of speaker wire by cutting it all over the place. I can rebuild an amplifier but cutting a bunch of cables eludes me....Nonetheless, I figured I would get it all working again and place an order to either Kimber or BlueJean to remedy the situation.

So, I then put in a new CD, Dean Martin's “Forever Cool” and sat back expecting to hear all kind of problems due to the hodge podge spliced speaker cables. But.....the image was perfect. I listened to the whole CD, and then to another, and another....the singer was dead center and the stereo separation was to a level I hadn't heard from this system yet. How is this possible? Am I crazy? I have recreated this for the last three days. The result has been the same. My wife, who had been listening to me complain and had herself said that the singer was “off to the side a bit” confirmed that it was now fixed. She congratulated me on fixing the issue and spent a few hours listening to music while I did other stuff, perplexed at the outcome. I did nothing. I changed a set of exact length and well terminated, high quality 10AWG cables for a mismatched length blend of 10AWG and solder spliced 16AWG wire. I am a dedicated skeptic on most things that can't be scientifically supported and yet I am witnessing a very noticeable difference between things here.

This has me hesitant now about spending a couple of hundred dollars on Kimber interconnects (PBJ) and speaker cable (8vs). I would hate to spend this money and have my image fall apart compared to the spliced mess that is on there now. ( mind you my solder joints are very good, so the joints would not be to blame) What are some observations on my findings here?

Thanks, more to follow. Alan

F1nut

Increased resistance.

That said, I'd have to say the real problem is your receiver. See if you can beg, borrow or steal another one to confirm.

I am a dedicated skeptic on most things that can't be scientifically supported

Friendly tip, in this hobby it's best to leave that attitude in the closet.

erniejade

Do you have the speakers running at full range or are you using the crossover on the sub, or an external crossover? If the speakers and the sub is trying to produce the same frequency, this will cause cancelation and either make it sound strange, not right, or even weak in the bass.
"I bought some twisted Y cables that allowed me to intercept the signal from the pre amp and send that signal to the sub while sending the same signal to the amp." This leads me to believe the main speakers are running full range.

I think ( not sure) but you might need to use the speaker out from the receiver, to the high level in ( speaker level in) on the sub and then the speaker out from the sub to your speakers to help cut the low end from your speakers.

I am not familiar with your sub. Some subs have RCA in and out use the built in crossover. If yours has rca in and out, and if your receiver has pre in and out on the back, unplug the jumper on the receiver, rca out to the sub in, rca out on the sub to the in on the receiver.

If your receiver has rca in and out and you do not want to have that long of a run of rca cables, Bsoko2 might still have a
Paradigm X-30 subwoofer crossover for sale in the link below. I have one and it does a good job. Again with this unit, unplug the pre in and out, go from the out to the in on this unit, and then the out from this unit to the in on the receiver, sub out on the x30 to the sub. It also has phase control on the X30 to help get the timing to your ears right.

http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?152841-STUFF-for-SALE!

To me from what I am seeing in your last post, you might be getting some issues with your imaging as well as bass loss or bloat due to phase cancellation of the sub and the mains producing the same frequency. Also adding a unit like the X30 or using a crossover will actually allow the c740 to run a bit more efficient and free up some power.

Alan_r

F1: I understand the concept of increased resistance. So basically, by increasing the resistance of the left speaker by using splices and thinner wire, it changed the sound? I would think that the increased resistance would have caused the amp to provide more power to that speaker, increasing the volume and shifting the image further to the left. The opposite happened.

Thanks for the friendly tip!

EJ: The speakers are running full range, the subs crossover is set to come into play right before the mains roll off the low freqs.

I am running the speaker out (amplified full range) from the amp, to the subwoofers speaker inputs. Then from the subwoofers speaker outputs to the main speakers. I do not believe the PSW505 affects the mains.The NAD 740 does not have any crossovers and I am running it with the tone control section bypassed anyway. I am not a fan of EQ's.

I have considered a crossover that would block low frequencies to the mains. However, I really don't have an issue with bass from the mains. They reproduce it very well. I spent a lot of time adjusting the subs crossover and they now blend quite well. As you may have read in another thread, this sub is only there until I get a better, sealed sub. It was bought to help a soundbar.

I may have been unclear in my last post. My image is now really convincing. My confusion was from the fact that I achieved this by accident using a botched up temporary pile of wire. I most likely should leave it all alone. But....I will not consider this setup complete until it is all nice and tidy, with permanent cables and components.

Here are pictures of my listening area, as requested.

This is the view from my listening position.

This is looking at the listening position from the right corner.

This is looking from the right rear corner.

Looking right from the listening position at the sub and right speaker.

Looking from the left front corner.

The room is pretty big. Clearly to big for the single 12" sub.

F1nut

So basically, by increasing the resistance of the left speaker by using splices and thinner wire, it changed the sound?

Yes.

I would think that the increased resistance would have caused the amp to provide more power to that speaker, increasing the volume and shifting the image further to the left.

You're confusing resistance and impedance.



BTW, What happened to that poor switch plate?

erniejade

By running the wire to the sub then the speakers from the sub your using the built in crossover on the sub. Your running it right.

DarqueKnight

Alan_r wrote: »

I understand the concept of increased resistance. So basically, by increasing the resistance of the left speaker by using splices and thinner wire, it changed the sound? I would think that the increased resistance would have caused the amp to provide more power to that speaker, increasing the volume and shifting the image further to the left. The opposite happened.

Increasing impedance (depending on what causes the increase) can increase the noise level in the signal because the signal power, and therefore the signal to noise ratio, is being lowered. Increasing noise level has detrimental effects on the small amplitude spatial components of the signal. As electrical noise goes up, sound staging and imaging performance goes down.

Demanding more power on a continuous basis from the amplifier is not a good idea because the more an amplifier operates outside of its "comfort zone" the more noise and distortion are generated and impressed upon the audio signal.

drummer86

As other have mentioned it looks like you have a lot of reflective surfaces. These will all affect the sound to some degree.

Room looks very cozy and your dog is beautiful. Does he/she sing along with you music like mine?

zane77

Love the Golden!

tonyb

Alan,

Pics...good man. Some suggestions aside from the receiver F1nut mentioned, pull those speakers away from the wall a good 6 inches and if you can move that sub to the opposite side of the fireplace....at least the opposite side of the rack, it's too far off as is.

Fireplaces always present a challenge for audio, I have the same problem, which I still am struggling with myself....and the wife. Have you thought about re-arranging the room ? Maybe put the system in front by the window ?

Summerwind2

same you're not able to mount TV above the fireplace this would be the idea focal point for staging

tonyb

Summerwind2 wrote: »

same you're not able to mount TV above the fireplace this would be the idea focal point for staging

But not optimal for video....hence the problems with fireplaces.

michael1947

This is a GREAT thread, all the big guns are out and lots of information, I will learn a lot just sitting back and reading. However, I believe you may be kind of a perfectionest (which is a good thing in this hobby) as you said that you measured the distance to your ears to within 1/16th of an inch. Do you have perfect, even hearing? I don't, my right ear is missing a fair range and I don't remember the frequencies involved but I suspect somewhere in the range of a hand grenade or machine gun. I'll bet many of us in the over 40 club have some hearing descrepancies and in our quest for perfection perhaps we should calculate it into our rigs...just sayin'. Also, have you factored in your wandering room acoustics. Your dog moves around and traps sound in her/his fur and mass. I have tried to train my Golden to cuddle up around the sub-woofer. Just sayin'.

aboroth00

Room acoustics play a big role in imaging and soundstaging. I had a similar problem where the left speaker sounded a tad bit louder and shifted the image ever so slightly to the left. This effect can be caused by cancellation of waves from on one side and/or reinforcement of certain frequencies on another side. Sound in normal rooms takes time to decay. This leaves room for constructive or destructive interference to occur. For instance, if your speaker plays a note and your room plays back the same note 180 deg out of phase, there will be cancellation. Bad bass can have a detrimental effect beyond sounding boomy. It can smear the imaging of your system, ring in your room for an extended amount of time, and excite room nodes and multiples thereof. Integrating a sub is definitely a challenge in any system.

Considering your large room and smaller sub, corner loading it would be a good idea to decrease distortion and increase output. What freq did you decide to set your XO at? How did you determine the phase to set the sub?

Alan_r

Hello everyone. I hope everyone had a good holiday and I’m sure some will agree, I’m glad it’s over! Now back to spending money on my own toys.
I finally got everything about as close to right as I’m going to get with my current components. I never could get a perfect soundstage though. Whenever I would get one aspect right, another would degrade.
I did experiment with covering the television and coffee table. I did notice changes though I am not sure if it improved or not, it was just different. The only other change that I made was the installation of a Monster HTS 3500 MkII power conditioner/surge protector. We had a transformer catch on fire a few months back and the power surges were visible in our lights; it made me worry for my electronics. I found the Monster component on Ebay. It was in wonderful condition and I won it for $38.50. Not to bad. I did not notice any difference in the sound of my system or in the video. Some people swear it made a difference but I guess our power is pretty clean and consistent out of the fuse box. However, I do sleep better knowing it’s there. I may, just for the sake of covering all bases, add a SurgeX surge protector in between the wall and the Monster 3500. From my understanding, the Monster uses MOV’s to protect and if a strong surge hits it will sacrifice itself. The SurgeX uses a more active style of protection and does not sacrifice itself. Once this is done, I believe that there will be no question that the power feeding my components is as clean and protected as it can be.

TonyB: I tried moving the speakers further away from the wall, but contrary to what usually works, I found that in my particular room the speakers sounded better closer to the rear wall and further away from the side walls. I expected the bass to be muddy but it was not.

M1947: Though I have not yet crossed the 40 mark (only a few away), I have been in the Field Artillery for 17 years and I know for a fact my hearing is not what it used to be. Thankfully, the loss is about equal in both ears so the imaging in my head isn’t too far off. 

Ab00: Agreed, due to the size of the room, I did find that the sub sounded best in the corner. I had not intended on keeping the PSW505 in my 2 channel system. However, after spending many hours playing around with the settings and placement, I am actually quite pleased with its performance. The sub is now pretty much invisible and the frequency handoff is virtually transparent to my ears. The phase was set in a very unscientific way. I sat in my listening position and had my wife set it and then get behind me. I would listen for a bit and then she would come in and switch it the other way. We did this for some time and I left it in the position that sounded “right”. The subs crossover is set to 80 Hz. This frequency seemed to be the best for a transparent handoff of frequencies. I set this using a bass test CD that had a signal that went from 20kHz slowly down to 5Hz. I kept replaying it and adjusting the crossover until the transition from the RT600’s to the sub was seamless to my ears. I believe the RT600’s (quoted from polkaudio.com) have an overall range of 30Hz – 26 kHz and a -3db response limit of 45Hz – 25 kHz. I believe (quoted from polkaudio.com) that the PSW505 has a total range of 23 Hz – 160 Hz and a -3db limit of 28 Hz – 125 Hz. Therefor 80Hz seems to agree with what I am hearing.

So, having listened to my setup over the holidays untouched, I am now at the point of upgrading my cables. Having noticed differences while messing with my cheap speaker wire lengths and routing, I am deciding which end to start at. It would make sense to start at the power cable side and work the system out to the speakers. I am going to start a new thread specifically on each area (power cable, Interconnect cable and speaker cable along with plugs) and then comment on the effects regarding my image and soundstage. So, my quest continues. Hopefully at the end of this road I will have a really good understanding of how all this works and ties into each other and….a really fun system to listen to and enjoy. Thanks to all who have commented and shared their opinions; it has been very helpful and inspiring. More to follow, Alan.

stretchl

michael1947 wrote: »

I have tried to train my Golden to cuddle up around the sub-woofer. Just sayin'.

Rotfl.

Woofers of the world, unite!

Loud & Clear

I bet a nice pair of LSi7s would sound great in there with that sub. I'd be surprised if fussing about with wires is going to net you the result you're after. In my experience speakers are the primary factor to be considered when going after a satisfying musical experience.