Room Correction Technology

LeftCoast

Hey Everyone

I was wondering if room correction technology on AVRs eliminates the need for acoustic treatments?

Nightfall

There is no substitute for room treatments but It's better then nothing. Usually.

EndersShadow

LeftCoast wrote: »

Hey Everyone

I was wondering if room correction technology on AVRs eliminates the need for acoustic treatments?

Nope. Treating your room is the SINGLE BEST upgrade you can ever make.

Think of it this way. No matter how expensive the gear you have or buy is, its all still in the same room. So your not doing yourself any favors if the room is untreated, or your setup is incorrect.

Setting your speakers up correctly is paramount. Then treating the room if you can. EQ simply is the last 10% of the sound chain IMHO. There are MANY more changes you can make (room treatments and setup) that will actually fix the problem, EQ simply attempts to overcorrect for it which is better than nothing, but doesnt solve your overall problem.

LeftCoast

Got it. Thanks, guys.

WLDock

The true is...there are some pro sound guys that feel that spending thousands of dollars of gear and not measure, treat, and play with placement is asinine!

tonyb

WLDock wrote: »

The true is...there are some pro sound guys that feel that spending thousands of dollars of gear and not measure, treat, and play with placement is asinine!

While true, most don't apply these techniques because they aren't professional listeners, nor to some want to be. They simply want to just turn it on and enjoy without having to have a degree in audio. Only when they start paying serious attention to SQ does any of this enter their brain. Then they realize there's more to this audio thing than meets the eye......and go out and buy Bose. LOL

WLDock

Tony, you're right. It seems the DIY type or the deep pocket type that pay a pro to build their system/dedicated HT space are the groups that tend to deal with the room. Most don't go that far....lets face it, it might be tough to get it to match the decor if the room is not dedicated.


Still, some don't see the point in buying top AVR's, separates, etc if the room is not going to be touched.

Yet, DSP is amazing in how quick it can make adjustments and the Sherwood Newcastle R-972 with the Trinnov is one that seems to be able to do some interesting things with less than ideal speaker placement/room conditions in terms of surround sound. Never tried it myself but would like to.

mantis

Here's the Bottom line.
When you plan on purchasing a Home theater system, the very first thing you should consider is the room you are going to put it in. I don't care how good or bad given room is, there is a system that will work in that given room. Some rooms are unfit for a home theater system YES I have ran into them and had to have my client re think the entire project and move to another more suitable space.
When this is not an option, other solutions are available to give you somewhat of a good experience. Soundbars and wireless subs have become very popular due to these constraints.

So when you have a room that can hold a lets keep it simple a 5.1 home theater system, placement is the very next important thing. What you need to do IF you are a DIY kind of guy is learn the basic fundamentals of what makes a home theater. Then learn slighty deeper and learn what the bet placement of all channels are and try to get as close as possible in your room.
Room acoustics don't have to be purchased. Making good choices in the room with common items usually can pose very good results. So if you have a room that your working in and it has hard wood floors, strongly consider a area rug. This will greatly improve your overall sound quality. If no area rug is used in such a room, then terrible echoes you will have.
Furniture also helps greatly in rooms like this. Leather and Microfiber really help absorb sound and keep the room calm.
Windows are horrible as glass makes for an overly live room. I strongly suggest winder treatments like soft room darkening shades and heavy when possible curtains. These allow you to watch movies in the daytime and not wash out the screen. It also greatly improves room acoustics by helping calm a live room.
Now once you achieve all these goals, a room correction system and really help bring life or calm down a system so it works it's best in given room. It's no replacement for a sound acoustic space but it really can help out.
All room correction system by all companies work well. Some better then others but there are other factors to consider before purchasing a receiver or preamp due to it's correction hard and software.

One huge issue including myself over the years is putting a system in a room thats not fit for it. Using to big of speakers for the space provided can hurt your experience. Purchasing to high end of equipment and putting into spaces where you can't hear all the glory you just purchased. Most if not all of the time the correct speaker package that best suits the room no matter how much of a challenge given room is will always yield the very best results.

4xoddic

IMHO, the future is eliminating audio artifacts prior to releasing them into your room. The 6moons article (Feb. 2011) appears to be evolving: "Spatial's approach is clearly a fluidly moving target. As new software and firmware become available, upgrades or new features are just a download and perhaps subsequent recalibration away."

http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/emerald/4.html

"With Spatial Computer, Clayton Shaw now packages comprehensive phase, time and room-correction software inside iTunes, the hottest audio platform ever"

http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/emerald/1.html

"SPATIAL has added the DIRAC room correction software system to our lineup. This is the best sounding DRC we have tried, and we are excited to offer our award-winning remote control installation approach combined with DIRACs superb sonic improvements. $995 complete with installation and calibration. 30 day trial."

http://www.spatialcomputer.com/page3/page3.html

During my time in theatres, 1969 - 1974, the most advanced sound mitigating room treatment I observed was in the newly constructed Mall Cinema (Wichita, KS). This consisted of a compressed fiberboard applied to the walls. Although painted, within a short time fragments were abraded from the paneling by patrons' touch.

Note: I saw "Let it Be" & "Ladies and Gentlemen: The Rolling Stones!" at this theater. The sound in both was XL. I worked "Woodstock" for several months in 1970 @ The Boulevard; the audio was XL, with absolutely no room treatments. As Mantis has noted, taking acoustics into account as the room is designed is far more important than adding treatments.

In speaking with Bill Warren a couple years back, we talked about his "largest in the World" IMAX screen in Wichita. He had been quoted in The Wichita Eagle regarding THX certification of his Warren West IMAX. When I ran his Westway Cinema, Wichita's first automated theater, the audio equipment was minimal, although guided by someone with Altec Lansing Voice of the Theater speakers in his living room (salvaged from the Wichita Theatre, I believe).

Summerwind2

4xoddic wrote: »

IMHO, the future is eliminating audio artifacts prior to releasing them into your room. The 6moons article (Feb. 2011) appears to be evolving: "Spatial's approach is clearly a fluidly moving target. As new software and firmware become available, upgrades or new features are just a download and perhaps subsequent recalibration away."

http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/emerald/4.html

"With Spatial Computer, Clayton Shaw now packages comprehensive phase, time and room-correction software inside iTunes, the hottest audio platform ever"

http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/emerald/1.html

"SPATIAL has added the DIRAC room correction software system to our lineup. This is the best sounding DRC we have tried, and we are excited to offer our award-winning remote control installation approach combined with DIRACs superb sonic improvements. $995 complete with installation and calibration. 30 day trial."

http://www.spatialcomputer.com/page3/page3.html

During my time in theatres, 1969 - 1974, the most advanced sound mitigating room treatment I observed was in the newly constructed Mall Cinema (Wichita, KS). This consisted of a compressed fiberboard applied to the walls. Although painted, within a short time fragments were abraded from the paneling by patrons' touch.

Note: I saw "Let it Be" & "Ladies and Gentlemen: The Rolling Stones!" at this theater. The sound in both was XL. I worked "Woodstock" for several months in 1970 @ The Boulevard; the audio was XL, with absolutely no room treatments. As Mantis has noted, taking acoustics into account as the room is designed is far more important than adding treatments.

In speaking with Bill Warren a couple years back, we talked about his "largest in the World" IMAX screen in Wichita. He had been quoted in The Wichita Eagle regarding THX certification of his Warren West IMAX. When I ran his Westway Cinema, Wichita's first automated theater, the audio equipment was minimal, although guided by someone with Altec Lansing Voice of the Theater speakers in his living room (salvaged from the Wichita Theatre, I believe).

I would love to score a pair of VOTs regardless of room dimensions.

mantis

DSkip wrote: »

Good points Dan, but I will argue the point about leather absorbing sound. I had a vast improvement in my room once moving from leather to microfiber.

I actually was referring to Suede not polished leather which can reflect just a bit.I should have been more clean. Not much as I have had fully polished Leather seating in many Theater rooms and the room sounded incredible. I think it adds a nice amount of reflective and absorptive material.
This is why your MicroFiber furniture made an improvement in your room. But to much and the room becomes to dead.

SolidSqual

I own DIRAC. It is amazing. I used it in a room completely untouched by traditional acoustic treatments and it worked wonders. Then I contracted with GIK Acoustics to treat my room. Again, another excellent investment. I turned off the DIRAC when treating my room and experimenting. Then I later added DIRAC back in. The combo is excellent. I suggest attacking room issues from both sides using room correction and acoustic treatments.

4xoddic

SolidSqual, THANX for sharing your DIRAC + acoustic treatments experience. Did DIRAC provide any guidance utilized in room treatment?

SolidSqual

4xoddic wrote: »

SolidSqual, THANX for sharing your DIRAC + acoustic treatments experience. Did DIRAC provide any guidance utilized in room treatment?

Well, DIRAC indicated that I would need far less room treatments since many peaks and valleys would be corrected digitally. This proved to be true and the folks from GIK agreed after I sent them my in-room measurements. I mainly used the GIK to eliminate slap echo and to create greater dispersion for a more spacious sound. I did also employ a few based traps from ceiling to floow in the front corners which allowed me to rely on DIRAC less for bass correction.

Phasewolf

Treatments do a lot more then treat peaks and dips they help with something that electronic room correction can't and that is decay time.

Look at it this way if you have a room mode at 70hz and the room is ringing wile the electronic room correction may knock the peak flat it will still ring that note longer then the rest but with traps they will not only help knock down the peak but lower the ringing times throughout the frequency range.

They can also fix something else and that is a dip try fixing a -30db dip with a equalizer and see what happens.

LeftCoast

Thanks for the discussion guys. I'm the perennial student and question-asker. heheh. I'm trying to visualize the space I have. It will be a dedicated room. I don't have the exact measurements of the space, but is is a bonus above the garage, so is the approximate size of the garage. The ceiling may be lower than the garage. I'm not sure. It is a feature of a house I'm purchasing. I tried to get the measurements when I was there during an inspection a couple of days ago, but there was so much going on, I didn't get a chance to accomplish this.

I was thinking about what Mantis said about considering the objects in the room helping with the sound before even thinking about room treatments. It's got wood floors, so definitely a large area rug on the floor. Behind the space where the rig will be set up are a pair of windows. So I'm thinking to install some heavy velvet curtains that I can pull shut behind the rig when using the room. That will shut light coming inside and deal with sound bouncing off those back windows. I have micro suede couches already that I was planning to put in the room anyway.

After I put my things in the room, I should then:

1. Figure out speaker placement
2. Get acoustic treatments
3. Do the electronic room correction.

In that order?

tonyb

Not necessarily.

Placement of speakers is first, then electronic room correction. Then you have to decide if further treatment is even needed. Lots of homes have rugs, drapes, etc., that already add some form of treatment......or take away. Entirely possible to over dampen a room that doesn't need it. Granted, your average home may not have the proper treatments in the right spots, some may....some may not, depends.

SolidSqual

Phasewolf wrote: »

Treatments do a lot more then treat peaks and dips they help with something that electronic room correction can't and that is decay time.

Look at it this way if you have a room mode at 70hz and the room is ringing wile the electronic room correction may knock the peak flat it will still ring that note longer then the rest but with traps they will not only help knock down the peak but lower the ringing times throughout the frequency range.

They can also fix something else and that is a dip try fixing a -30db dip with a equalizer and see what happens.

Your statements are not quite true.

First, decay time can be greatly improved with digital correction.

See this comment alone from the DIRAC folks:

The impulse response of a loudspeaker affects clarity, tightness and all spatial aspects of the sound, such as location and distinctness. Dirac Live is unique in actually correcting the impulse response in a large listening area, not just a single point. By focusing on consistent problems across the measurement positions, and correcting only these, a faster decay time is achieved. Typically, the power ratio between the direct wave and the tail is improved by 6 dB or more, representing a vastly tighter sound.

http://www.dirac.se/en/technologies/dirac-live/technical-description.aspx

Second, DIRAC leveled out a 20dB dip for me. I have the amplification power to handle this type of correction and DIRAC actually measures the limits of my speakers drivers to make sure my speakers are never overdriven. To your point, I have used Acoustic Treatments to help DIRAC so that it no longer has to fix a 20dB dip alone, but it certainly can. The 30dB dip would be tougher, but also probably points to some very unfortunate placement issues that could be most effectively corrected by moving the speakers.

LeftCoast

tonyb wrote: »

Not necessarily.

Placement of speakers is first, then electronic room correction. Then you have to decide if further treatment is even needed. Lots of homes have rugs, drapes, etc., that already add some form of treatment......or take away. Entirely possible to over dampen a room that doesn't need it. Granted, your average home may not have the proper treatments in the right spots, some may....some may not, depends.

I understand. It would make more economic sense to do the room correction first to determine WHAT treatments are necessary.
As for hanging a curtain and putting down a large area rug, it's a big room the size of a two car garage. I'd guestimate that a large oriental rug 12x7 or so wouldn't even cover 1/4 of the room. Even with hanging a heavy curtain, putting down a rug, and putting in furniture, etc., I don't think I'm in any danger of over dampening the room.

Face

SolidSqual wrote: »

I own DIRAC. It is amazing. I used it in a room completely untouched by traditional acoustic treatments and it worked wonders. Then I contracted with GIK Acoustics to treat my room. Again, another excellent investment. I turned off the DIRAC when treating my room and experimenting. Then I later added DIRAC back in. The combo is excellent. I suggest attacking room issues from both sides using room correction and acoustic treatments.

I agree 100%. Although, I'm using J. River's DSP tuned with an Omnimic.

Phasewolf

I don't see how digital correction could correct a time domain issue how can it effect how long energy stays in the room? If you have a room mode that effects your room at say 50hz lots of stuff can fix the frequency domain part of the issue and get rid of a peak or null however when trying to deal with how long such a signal would bounce inside a room I am not so sure on that claim. Even if you lower the amount of energy in the room at said range it would physically not change the effect of what the room mode does.

Can you post a measurement with REW of a before and after waterfall graft for me to study I would love to see how this would fix a room mode issue.

I am not saying it can't be done but with a Bass trap it effects the time domain by absorbing energy and turning it into heat but with room correction wile it can change the frequency domain so that it is flat that would not effect the time that the energy stays live from everything I have read over the years.

Now there has been several room correction systems that have claimed they could when looking at before and after with a waterfall chart has shown not to be the case.

If this system can I would love to understand more on how and why it works.

SolidSqual

Phasewolf wrote: »

I don't see how digital correction could correct a time domain issue how can it effect how long energy stays in the room? If you have a room mode that effects your room at say 50hz lots of stuff can fix the frequency domain part of the issue and get rid of a peak or null however when trying to deal with how long such a signal would bounce inside a room I am not so sure on that claim. Even if you lower the amount of energy in the room at said range it would physically not change the effect of what the room mode does.

Can you post a measurement with REW of a before and after waterfall graft for me to study I would love to see how this would fix a room mode issue.

I am not saying it can't be done but with a Bass trap it effects the time domain by absorbing energy and turning it into heat but with room correction wile it can change the frequency domain so that it is flat that would not effect the time that the energy stays live from everything I have read over the years.

Now there has been several room correction systems that have claimed they could when looking at before and after with a waterfall chart has shown not to be the case.

If this system can I would love to understand more on how and why it works.

That's a good idea. I will do some before and after measuring in REW. Give me a chance to figure how to do the waterfall graphs on it. I'm not real familiar with the program.