Phono Stages for LoMC Carts

Dawgfish

Update! Good news, I returned home from work and pulled the SUT. After I popped the lid and looked inside, I found the negative terminals on the RCAs were not grounded and were only attached to the negative leads on the transformers. I installed a dedicated output grounding post and ran jumpers to the negative leads on the RCAs. After putting everything back together and hooking the SUT back up, I sat down and took a listen. No more hum!

I'm eventually going to re-wire everything and put it in a better case, but for now this will work! Thank you very much SCompracer! I really appreciate all of your help!

schwarcw

Rich is the man! That's my SUT he's showing in the photos. I can't wait to get it back! I also use the Denon 103R cartridge. I have one with the Soundsmith upgrades (ruby cantilever and contour diamond stylus) waiting to go in soon!

These devices are highly under-rated until you try one. There is magic in those coils. ENJOY!

Thanks Rich!

Dawgfish

Oh man Carl, that should sound awesome! I have a Dynavector 20XH with the level 2 Soundsmith retip and a Shelter 501mk ll with the level 1 retip. They both sound great, one borders on supernatural, but more on that in a moment.

Rich you are the man! Carl, yours and Rich's discussion got me going down the SUT path and I'm really glad y'all motivated me. You are right, there is magic in them devices!

Gentlemen what I'm about to say I want y'all to understand I'm not being boastful or bragging, I just want my fellow diciples of the goodness known as vinyl to share in the beauty of what is the Shelter 501! Y'all owe it to yourselves to try this thing, it's that good. All of the glowing reviews are 1000% accurate and still don't do it justice. I'll never look at another phono cart again, unless I decide to go further up the Shelter line. Honestly I don't feel any need to.

schwarcw

Dawg, you are living large with that front end. I have heard the 501 but not in my system, but I do know that it sounded very good. BTW, the little known fellow Polkie and very knowledgeable vinyl addict analog97 (Larry) built the SUT that Rich modified for me. Larry did all the upfront research on the SUT and coordinated the parts buy for the three SUT units that were built by Larry and Rich. Like you, I had a small hum that I wanted to remedy. Like you, I could easily have lived with it because the SUT sounded so good! Rich has a few ideas that we're going to try to defeat my low level hum. I have Rich's unit at my house now listening to it while mine is in the mail.

Larry and I have the Cinemag "Blue" 3440s, Rich picked up a pair of reds from another fellow Polkie.

Enjoy your SUT, shoot us some pics if you can. Rich has a few "beauty" shots I'm sure he'll share

Dawgfish

Thanks! Will do Carl! It's nowhere as pretty as the ones y'all have, but it sure does sound good. Ill snap a few photos tonight. Let us know what you think of the Soundsmith-DL-103R after you've had a chance to break it in. I little hunch tells me it's going to be excellent!

SCompRacer

Dawgfish wrote: »

Update! Good news...

Kewl! With the grounding scheme much depends on how your table is grounded too. Some use separate ground, some ground through left channel negative. Glad you have it sorted out!

High marks on the Shelter! Some day I’ll hear Carl’s Soundsmith Denon. The ruby cantilever takes it to another level over the wood or aluminum body mod. Right now my 17D3 is my go to cartridge over my aluminum bodied Denon 103R. However I recently set up a cartridge for a friend that impressed me greatly. The AT33EV. For what it can be purchased for and what it delivers, it could be the 17D3’s replacement when it wears out.




I’m of the opinion that not all MC stages can be upstaged by an SUT. My MC stage has been recapped, rebiased and improved with some NOS Siemens 1% Styroflex polystyrenes. For now I have been concentrating on lowering the noise floor of the SUT’s we have been messing with. I am very fussy about a low noise floor and won’t add anything that increases what I have now which is so low in phono mode it is not an issue. I’ll employ this latest grounding change to mine when it comes back and do some serious listening.

The SUT/MM does offer me more gain than my current MC stage. That result is lower clock position on the pre amp compared to the MC stage for same SPL, but I am still quiet when I cue the stylus using MC stage at same SPL.

SCompRacer

Dawgfish wrote: »

^^I've read great things about the AT33EV^^ It's good to hear it confirmed from a fellow CP'er whom I can trust! That DV17D3 is a sweet cart! I came really close to picking one up, but I already had the DV20XH and wanted to try something different, thus the Shelter. I hear the 17 is much smoother than the 20XH.

I think in the case of running a low output moving coil cart without an SUT and just using a phono pre, it would probably be advantageous to go with something solid state (?). What are you running for a phono pre just out of curiosity? I'm running a Jolida JD-9 with modded caps, op-amps, dynamatted cabinet, and Raytheon long black plate 12AX7 tubes. It's not the greatest phono pre in the world, but it offers a lot of bang for the buck. I'm really happy with how it sounds. Anyways when I run most of my NOS tubes like the Raytheon, the sound is great, but the tubes tend to have some noise at higher gain settings on the phono pre. I have a pair of Mullard reissues that are very quiet, but they just don't sound anywhere as good as any of the NOS tubes I run in it.

Running the SUT with my setup allows me to get a lower noise floor while retaining the sweet-sound of the NOS tubes. If I had my druthers though I wish I could do it without a SUT due to added cables and extra components that the signal has to pass through. Ultimately though it comes down to sound, and the sound with the SUT is fabulous! I no longer feel the need to upgrade.

The Jolida is a nice phono pre, even better when modded! I was surprised how well that AT33EV cart sounded. It was in a nice system too. My old Yamaha YP-D10 table, Revel f52 speakers, Class A Krell KSA-250 amp, BAT pre amp and Pro-Ject phono stage. I had chills!

I have the KSL MM/MC phono card pictured earlier in thread. Both the KSL pre and phono card have been recapped and rebiased. They are jfet designs. Krell also sold them in a separate enclosure with external power supply. I had tubes prior to that, a ModWright SWLP 9.0 w/Signature caps pre w/his built in SWP 9.0 phono stage. When I built my DIY DAC it had discrete balanced out which sounded better the SE out so I went shopping for a balanced pre.

I have a pair of PCB’s to build a dual mono Paradise MC phono stage. It will be a two chassis design as it requires two power supplies. Maybe this winter….or maybe not. Anxious to apply the ground change to my SUT when it gets back. It sure made a difference with Carl's. It sounded excellent!



EDIT: I had quoted and went to reply to find a forum upgrade was in process. I reply after upgrade complete and your quoted post is gone...lol

Dawgfish

Rich,

I'm really glad you quoted that! I posted it just before the board went down for maintanance. I thought it was gone forever, so I'm glad you saw the reply! I thought I was going to have to repeat that when I get back to the office tomorrow morning! I have always drooled over your setups. They are spectacular!

Steve

schwarcw

We're all anxious to hear that Paradise MC stage when Rich is finished. I has the potential to be a game changer!

Dawgfish

schwarcw wrote: »

Dawg, you are living large with that front end. I have heard the 501 but not in my system, but I do know that it sounded very good. BTW, the little known fellow Polkie and very knowledgeable vinyl addict analog97 (Larry) built the SUT that Rich modified for me. Larry did all the upfront research on the SUT and coordinated the parts buy for the three SUT units that were built by Larry and Rich. Like you, I had a small hum that I wanted to remedy. Like you, I could easily have lived with it because the SUT sounded so good! Rich has a few ideas that we're going to try to defeat my low level hum. I have Rich's unit at my house now listening to it while mine is in the mail.

Larry and I have the Cinemag "Blue" 3440s, Rich picked up a pair of reds from another fellow Polkie.

Enjoy your SUT, shoot us some pics if you can. Rich has a few "beauty" shots I'm sure he'll share

Carl,

Here are some photos of the SUT. The case the guy put it in is about 5 times larger than it needs to be, but I think it looks cool. The next time I take it out, I'll pop the top and shoot some photos of the Cinemag transformers and internals. For now, here are the external pics:

SCompRacer

Thanks for the kind words Steve. I wish I could rebuild myself like some of the old gear I've revived...lol

That is a nice repurposed case! Beautiful Sony table! Nice rack and gear too...

schwarcw

Greetings Steve!

That's a great looking system that must sound fantastic!. That SUT is one big ****. Why does it have an IEC power connector?

A glamor shot of the inside would be real kewl!

SCompRacer

schwarcw wrote: »

That SUT is one big ****. Why does it have an IEC power connector?

A three speed? Low, High and plug it in for Really High.

Dawgfish

^^That's a good one! A really high setting for when you are......really high!^^ Joking, thanks for the kind words! I'm really, really pleased with the sound. I don't feel a need to change or upgrade a thing in this particular system anymore and that's a great feeling!

Carl, the power switch doesn't work and is not connected to anything. The guy who assembled this thing just used a spare case that was lying around to put the transformers in. I've been trying to figure out what the case came from, so far my Google searches for Perpetuum have yielded nothing.

The case is way larger than it needs to be and at first I was thinking of getting something smaller, but I actually like the way it looks in the system. As you can see the case is ventilated, I was thinking of putting some sort of shielding inside the case to keep stray EM signals out if possible. Honestly though since I grounded the output RCAs, I don't feel any need to anymore. The grounding post to the far left on the rear was already installed. It came with a regular knurled knob that you can turn with your fingers initially, but the guy only attached one nut to the post so the whole post would rotate when trying to turn. The size and threads on the post where an odd size and I could not find a nut to fit it in my spare parts stash, so I replaced it with a screw and two nuts. The grounding post in the middle is the one that I drilled out the case and installed to act as the ground for the output RCAs. The terminal and jumpers are of course located inside the case. The post to the far right is actually a rotary knob that is used to switch between the 37.5 and 150 ohm settings.

Sorry I didn't get any internal shots. After I finally got this thing right and positioned like I wanted, I didn't want to move it. The next time I take it out for cleaning/etc., I'll grab some photos of the insides and Cinemag transformers. Considering I have a total $120 in the transformer, I couldn't be happier! It sounds even better than my wildest expectations. Again thanks to y'all for the advice and inspiration that motivated me to try one of these.

schwarcw

Congrats Dawg!

This is a great story! I am amazed at the improvement in sound quality the Cinemags provided.

I think the case that you have looks great! I know understand the builder used an available case to install the transformers. A good idea. I'm glad to hear this worked out so well for you. $120? WOW! Small price to pay for a good upgrade. Enjoy!

Regards,

george daniel

hope this helps

george daniel

more

Dawgfish

Thanks Carl! Thanks George!

Dawgfish

Gentlemen,

I decided to play the DL-103R yesterday as a change up, so I had to remove the SUT to change the load/gain settings. I was able to snap a few photos of the internals as requested. I'm probably going to add some internal shielding in the future.

SCompRacer

lol You could rent space in that project box.......; It is neat though! Thanks for showing pics.

I'm thinking that rotary switch allows for switching between your two gain stages? It looks like the two channel input selector I have in a diy Pass pre amp that needed completion. I didn't have a schematic but figured it out how to connect all inputs with a continuity tester

Yes, thanks George! The new ground scheme helped in Carl's rig. Mine was fine with the previous revision, but I'll try the new scheme when I get it back.

Basically you connect R channel input to R channel output ground and L channel input ground to L channel output ground. R and L output grounds connect to each pole of a DPDT switch. Both center lugs of DPDT switch connects to ground lug. In Lift mode, R and L channel grounds are separate. Ground ties everything together.

Dawgfish

Lol! That's correct, you change the load/gain settings with the rotary switch. Thanks!

doctorcilantro

Anyone played with the RSA Nighthawk? Battery powered and 70db of gain for MC.

"There is one unique element to the F117 relative to my list of present and past references. The F117 in my setup was very good with MC cartridges but even better with the Grado Sonata Reference 1 which is a moving magnet. I've never had this happen before. The Grado always took second seat to the Denon DL. For once both were equally enjoyable and more than once did I actually prefer the Grado."

http://www.sixmoons.com/audioreviews/raysamuels/f117_2.html

I was also told about modded Arkless Cambridge Audio 651P directly ($220 new + £350 mod?) outperformed Naim Prefix (£350 + £1000 Hicap) and EAR 834 (£1k+).

Phonomena II likes like a solid unit too.