Phono Stages for LoMC Carts

cstmar01

Looking for some recommendations for use with Low output MC carts. I currently have a Dynavector P75 and do like it, but looking to try something else out too.

I would like something that is fairly easy to adjust gain, etc on the pre without always having to pull it out, remove the top, etc. I just find that to be a PITA with how I have my set up as I try and have all connections inside my rack. I run shorter cables inside the rack so if I want to remove something I gotta pull the back off, unconnect everything pull it out etc. Just would be easier if I had control on a front or back panel to do that instead of pulling it out each time.

Would be looking in the 1K and lower price point at this time. Was thinking once of trying out a used BAT VK-P5 however heard that is not every good at the loMC carts so just kind of stuck.

I know I could look at step up transformers as well but not really sure where to start with those.

The cart right now is a Denon 103R.

cstmar01

One that seems interesting Musical Fidelity - M1 ViNL. I'm willing to spend a little more if its good.

SCompRacer

I know you like Esoteric gear so how about an E03….:eek:

Chris if you want to get off the beaten path and stay SS with external controls, try a Ray Samuel Nighthawk F117. It is Lithium battery operated.

http://www.raysamuelsaudio.com/products/f-117

sixmoons review.

http://www.sixmoons.com/audioreviews/raysamuels/f117.html

SCompRacer

I'll be building an SUT (step up transformer) for my Denon 103R in the next couple weeks you could try as well. An SUT with phono set to MM can be better (lower noise, more open and better defined sound stage) than using an MC stage.

dromunds

Chris, the Ray Samuel Nighthawk is the one I couldn't remember when we were talking about phono stages recently. Heard lots of good stuff about that one.

SCompRacer

If you go with an older Krell pre amp, the add on phono cards are really impressive.




You heard my recapped KSL w/KSL phono. There were a couple on the 'gon, but I wouldn't pay over $1K for one used with phono card, especially if it hasn't been recapped.

The KRC-HR is another great Krell pre available with phono card option, but at a higher cost. The KRC-HR needs the right amp or IMO it can come across as fatiguing to listen to. It seemed so with my Sanders A/B amp, but not so with the Class A Krell KSA-250. The KSL is a warmer Class A pre.

hochpt21

My PS Audio GCPH is incredibly adjustable.

Might not be to the level you are looking for, but its the best phono stage I've owned.

Polkersince85

I have a SUT (Peerless 4722) running my Denon 103R into either Carver C-11/TFM-55 or Scott 272's feeding the 2.3 TL. Old school but I'm old myself.

bikerboy

The Hagerman Bugle II runs very well with my Soundsmith ruby cl retipped Denon 103r. It is very quiet and dynamic. When you build it you can set the gain. No need to set anything else. I thought about the nighthawk but saw Hagerman's new phono amp and had to try it. I am very happy with it.

http://www.hagtech.com/bugle2.html

mhardy6647

The Just Listen to It preamp is the one I use; it's very good.

TSWisla

GCPH is hugely underrated, you can try it for relatively little money. It will work with almost any cartridge.

schwarcw

I'm using a step up transformer (SUT) between my Denon 59L and my Audio Research PH3SE phono preamp. I have a Denon 103R cartridge. It sounds fantastic. The SUT is a homebrew version of one sold by Bob's Devices Look Here

SCompRacer

We don't need a Bob's SUT when you can have a Carl's SUT! This one is labeled for the poor eyesight crowd.:biggrin:

Dawgfish

I'm running a modded Jolida JD-9(caps, op-amps, dynamatted cabinet, nos tubes) with both high and low output carts ( Shelter 501MK2, Denon 103R, and Benz Glider medium) with fantastic results. It is very adjustable. The only thing is the dip switches are located on the back, but they are relatively easy to get too. They may not be as easy to get too as you are looking for however.

I think your best solution probably would be the SUT that the others have mentioned. I've been thinking of trying one also, but the JD-9 sounds incredible by itself.

mhardy6647

The Silk SUTs from Thailand sound really good and are surprisingly affordable (FWIW).

http://www.sacthailand.com/Transformer_MC.html

schwarcw

SCompRacer wrote: »

We don't need a Bob's SUT when you can have a Carl's SUT! This one is labeled for the poor eyesight crowd.:biggrin:

Looking good Rich! Larry and I have the positive terminals on one side and the negative on the other. The turntable inputs are on the inside, the outputs on the outside terminals. Otherwise, mine looks exactly the same! Sure beats the $800+ that Bob wants.

SCompRacer

schwarcw wrote: »

Looking good Rich! Larry and I have the positive terminals on one side and the negative on the other. The turntable inputs are on the inside, the outputs on the outside terminals. Otherwise, mine looks exactly the same! Sure beats the $800+ that Bob wants.

I kind of like the inny look to the outy look although it looks like nothing but a box with RCA's in it.:biggrin: I also have some sealed gold plated contact switches on the way to add the ground lift and second gain stage choice.

cstmar01

Thanks for all the info guys! I think trying a SUT might be a good way to go for now.

schwarcw

cstmar01 wrote: »

Thanks for all the info guys! I think trying a SUT might be a good way to go for now.

There is magic in those SUT coils, you won't regret it!

SCompRacer

I added the ground lift and made it a two speed.:cheesygrin:

george daniel

nice work sir!

Dawgfish

That is sweet! The temptation to try a SUT grows by the minute.....

schwarcw

Those switches are nice!

A commercial version of this sells for about $800. The parts cost less than $200.

Dawgfish

Well, I finally broke down and bought a SUT. I found a home-made,used one made using Cinemag CM-QEE 3440A transformers. It has two settings on it; one has a 1:30 step up ratio with 37.5 ohm loading. This is perfect for the DL-103R. The other setting has a 1:15 step up ratio with 150 ohm loading. It works very well for the Shelter 501 MKII. Ideally the loading for the Shelter should be around 100 ohms, but it sounds very, very good at the 150 ohm loading.

I'm quite pleased with the SUT. The performance using the DL-103R is considerably better with the SUT than just using the JD-9 alone. I think a lot of this has to do with the fact that the lowest I could load the DL-103R with the Jolida was 70 ohms. With the JD-9 I get a perfect match of 37.5 Ohms. The noise floor has been lowered significantly, and the dynamics are much greater.

I noticed an improvement with the Shelter also, but not as profound as with the DL-103R. Again noise floor and surface noise seems to have decreased significantly. Dynamics are about the same, maybe a little bit better with the SUT. The Shelter still sounds noticeably better than the DL-103R in all categories, but the gap is not quite as large when using the Denon with the SUT. All in all I am very pleased with the addition of the SUT.

The only negative I am having with the SUT is I am getting a little bit of hum when volumes are very high. It is not noticeable during normal listening levels and not noticeable at all when the vinyl is being played. It's something most could easily live with, but me being OCD I would like to get rid of it.

I've played around with different positions in the rack, rerouted cables, and made an extra ground wire to run between the SUT and JD-9 (the phono ground is attached to the SUT). This all helped but it is still there to a very small extent. it is housed in a small aluminum enclosure. Any ideas on shielding/getting rid of the hum? Thanks in advance.

mhardy6647

Is the SUT shielded and grounded?
I mean... hum happens :-P (and we are talkin' delicate signals even on the "high" side of an SUT...)

Dawgfish

mhardy6647 wrote: »

Is the SUT shielded and grounded?
I mean... hum happens :-P (and we are talkin' delicate signals even on the "high" side of an SUT...)

It is grounded, but I certainly wouldn't call it shielded other than everything being mounted inside an aluminum box. The lid has vents in it however, so that may allow stray EM signals in I'm guessing? The fact that I'm running a tube phono stage, preamp, and amp doesn't help I'm sure.

I am happy that some hum happens.....just not in this case :-). It's really not bad and may just be something I have to learn to live with.

SCompRacer

They are sensitive to placement and cables used. I use coax which is shielded, one meter long. Best placement for me was top of the rack next to table on top of my DAC, but my DAC had to be off. Next best placement was on top right rear corner of my KSL pre amp, but not next to it. (The six toroidals in the left side of the DAC really messed with SUT). With volume low you can experiment with touching and grounding input and output RCA barrels to ground lug to see if hum lessens.

Is your SUT wired per Cinemag's schematic? I first wired my SUT exactly as they show. I used a switch in place of Cinemags JP1 jumper. I've read Bob's Devices site and based on what he writes his grounding scheme is way different. You have to read his product description and faq. I read him saying Cinemag housing and Faraday shield to ground lug, output RCA's negative switched to ground lug. No input RCA's are switched/grounded as per Cinemag schematic. He says when his ground is lifted no RCA's are grounded.

I tried his described method on a SUT here and find it works much better. I do get a slight equal intensity hum from each woofer if I turn volume past 1 oclock, but I get 80dB SPL by ten oclock and when I lift stylus it is quiet; no hum. As an MC phono builder once told me, 70dB gain will make a mouse **** unbearable. If you choose to try this revised grounding you do need to follow his faq for grounding. A steel box may offer a little better protection than aluminum.

http://www.bobsdevices.com/pages.php?pageid=8

I used these DPDT On/On switches from Digikey, CKN1032-ND. Pricey, they were chosen for aesthetics, sealed and gold plated contacts. Sealed and silver plated would be good.

http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/7201P3YZBE/CKN1032-ND/5559

Dawgfish

SCompRacer wrote: »

They are sensitive to placement and cables used. I use coax which is shielded, one meter long. Best placement for me was top of the rack next to table on top of my DAC, but my DAC had to be off. Next best placement was on top right rear corner of my KSL pre amp, but not next to it. (The six toroidals in the left side of the DAC really messed with SUT). With volume low you can experiment with touching and grounding input and output RCA barrels to ground lug to see if hum lessens.

Is your SUT wired per Cinemag's schematic? I first wired my SUT exactly as they show. I used a switch in place of Cinemags JP1 jumper. I've read Bob's Devices site and based on what he writes his grounding scheme is way different. You have to read his product description and faq. I read him saying Cinemag housing and Faraday shield to ground lug, output RCA's negative switched to ground lug. No input RCA's are switched/grounded as per Cinemag schematic. He says when his ground is lifted no RCA's are grounded.

I tried his described method on a SUT here and find it works much better. I do get a slight equal intensity hum from each woofer if I turn volume past 1 oclock, but I get 80dB SPL by ten oclock and when I lift stylus it is quiet; no hum. As an MC phono builder once told me, 70dB gain will make a mouse **** unbearable. If you choose to try this revised grounding you do need to follow his faq for grounding. A steel box may offer a little better protection than aluminum.

http://www.bobsdevices.com/pages.php?pageid=8

I used these DPDT On/On switches from Digikey, CKN1032-ND. Pricey, they were chosen for aesthetics, sealed and gold plated contacts. Sealed and silver plated would be good.

http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/7201P3YZBE/CKN1032-ND/5559

Awesome! Thank you! it looks like it is wired per the Cinemag wiring diagram. When I was looking at the wiring and the output rca terminals, I was wondering if the negative post should have been wired to the ground post as it was not. I thought about running jumpers and trying it, but I didn't want to damage anything without being sure. I will give that a try for sure.

I'm using 1 meter Analysis Plus Solo Crystal Oval ICs (was using 1/2 meter AP SCOs, but rearrange to decrease hum necessitated running the longer ICS). They are shielded.

As far as placement it is currently placed on top of my NAD M55 disc player on the next to top shelf. My turntable is on the top shelf and I don't have enough room for both of them on the top shelf. I noticed when moving the SUT around to try and find a placement with no and/or lower hum, that I did not get any hum when the SUT was completely out of and away from the rack. Since I have plenty of length on my turntable ICs, the simplest solution may just be to place a small shelf on the wall just behind and outside of the rack and place it there. Between that and the rca ground, I think I should be able to tackle this.

Thanks again for the suggestions and wiring diagrams.

SCompRacer

You are most welcome. Hope it helps you! Main thing is volume be low when messing with grounds (even with fingers) to avoid a WTF moment. : 0 I should add a disclaimer that nobody should be touching gear like this just in case; you could get a shock. Use wire instead.

Using a DPDT switch, the R and L output grounds are separate when lifted. When the switch is cosed, then the output grounds or negatives are joined by both connected to ground lug.

Here is an internal shot of the one I modded. I am working with a great existing build, just trying revised grounding methods to get hum eliminated or as low as possible. I'll see how it works for the owner IF I send it back. But I'll have to send it to get mine back...lol

Dawgfish

^^Wow!!!^^ That is wired and laid out much prettier than the one I bought! I think I just need to completely re-do it and do it right. The price was right but it could be done so much better as per your pic above! What is the foam surrounding the transformers? Does it help in shielding in any way? Thanks again.

SCompRacer

I'm just trying to keep it as neat as the original builder had it. I just sourced and added gain switch and ground lift switch, revised grounding.

Innie or outie… I think the original design was to use a larger chassis to keep trannies inside. Foam is just to hold trannies in place. I’ve seen some folks adhere the trannies to inside chassis with epoxy or gooey stuff. I don’t think the foam has any shielding properties, but cut a slit in it and you have a neat path for wiring. The white wire on Cinemag is connected to tranny housing so it is grounded as long as white wire is grounded. Bob and others mount trannies external with housing attached to chassis.