Wattage Schmattage!

Mikey081057

We tend to put a lot of emphasis on wattage when talking about amplifiers, so as an experiment I hooked my LSI 7's up to my 8.5 yes that is 8 point 5 wpc Qinpu A3 amp in my office rig, and you know what? They sound awesome. Plenty of gain, no distortion no clipping no ****! The 7's are 4ohms, and the amp isn't even close to hot yet... Been running for 2 hours.

Probably not going to get 120 db's out of them, but 84db at about 12:00 on the vol...

And they sound sweet.

mhardy6647

mmmm-hmmm. Preachin' to the choir, ol' son...

3.5 wpc at my house... 'course, the loudspeakers have sensitivity of about 104 dB per watt @ 1 meter...

Polkie2009

It's amazing how much sound you can get out of even one watt, depending on the sensitivity of the speaker. I'm from the old school where 1 o'clock on the preamp volume pot is about as far as you want to push an amp. On my power amps I leave the gain pots cranked max. Maybe others can chime in, I'm sure there are exceptions to this old way of thinking,lol.

mhardy6647

For many years I had a pair of the notoriously insensitive AR-3 three-way, acoustic suspension "monkey coffins" set up in the basement driven by a Maggotbox (Magnavox) push-pull EL84 stereo power amp of ca. 12 wpc... and the combination, to my ears and tastes, sounded danged fine nearfield.

strider

Amen. 27 wpc here, have had it hooked up to LsiM 703 all the way to 104 db 15" open baffles. Still moves some air and sounds good to my ears.

Mikey081057

strider wrote: »

Amen. 27 wpc here, have had it hooked up to LsiM 703 all the way to 104 db 15" open baffles. Still moves some air and sounds good to my ears.

Ha Great signature... Broken Hearts are for A**holes!

I bet only a rare few know the reference.

Zappa greatest ever!

leftwinger57

I have heard that over on the Klipsch site ,that a very small watt amp can push even Klipsch Corner Horns .I guess it's the effeciency of the speakers that really counts.Good no really good for you.

cnh

Yeah "efficiency" is a factor and a lot of HORN designs are very efficient. Mhardy is most likely running a horn speaker at that rating. Also remember that even a lower efficiency speaker, like 82 dbs can still play fairly loud even at ONE watt a meter away (after all 85db+ is where extended exposure starts to take a toll on your hearing!). And that most of us rarely push our equipment much past 1-10 watts. Remember what Nelson Pass said about the "first watt" and how important that is! And how he spent a lot of time with full range drivers that were relatively efficient experimenting with lower watt designs?

Then again you can watch VU meters and see how loud many speakers sound at 1-5 watts? Or the dozen or so videos on youtube where that little Lepai 2020A+ amp is driving garage size speakers reasonably loudly even though it peaks at about 7 watts a side?

That's not to say that more power is not necessary in many set ups. But then again, "tube" power is a little different in its presentation than solid state power of the same rating.

cnh

pearsall001

Those flea power tubs amps are pretty much in clipping mode as soon as they're powered up. That's the beauty of tubes...they clilp oh so nicely. Heaven forbid when you need some dynamic headroom. Better head for the SS amps to get the job done.

leftwinger57

CNH,that was really infomative, see what a layman can learn here in just a few minutes.Thanks, me thinks tubes would be to problematic w/ bias control ,heat factor and warm up time.I'm very happy w/ my instant on Adcom and just a few seconds to spool down.Oh remember the thread ages ago about amps powering down and how some speakers made kinda a deflating balloon sound.Well, for what ever reason and I listened very carefully to my SDA 2bs and they make no such sound when powering down,whether good bad or indifferent...Lew

F1nut

Thanks, me thinks tubes would be to problematic w/ bias control ,heat factor and warm up time.I'm very happy w/ my instant on Adcom and just a few seconds to spool down.

You don't know what you're missing.

cfrizz

Quite frankly I've come to think of tubes along the line of people who simply just want to play around with their gear. What with swapping tubes and all to tailor make the sound to their individual ears. If that is what you like, more power to you. But some of us simply want to turn on our gear and sit back and enjoy the tunes. Differences are what make the world go round. So long as you don't insist that your way is the only right way or your gear or your preference/cost of gear is the only good gear then to each their own, live and let live.

F1nut

So long as you don't insist that your way is the only right way or your gear or your preference/cost of gear is the only good gear then to each their own, live and let live.

And yet you comment...

Quite frankly I've come to think of tubes along the line of people who simply just want to play around with their gear.

....while having never tried tubes yourself.

SCompRacer

“Apparently, I did not previously have enough power available to fully flesh out the notes of such instruments. I imagine that there is another level of realism to be discovered if I go even higher in amplifier power.”

“Very large reserves of clean, fast, and stable power impart improvements in clarity, liquidity, tactile sensation and emotional impact to well-recorded music that must be heard to be believed.”

From this thread.

http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?147896-Pass-Labs-X600.5-Monoblock-Power-Amplifiers&highlight=amplifier+power

I’m sticking with Raife and keeping my "overpowered" amps.

cfrizz

F1nut wrote: »

And yet you comment.......while having never tried tubes yourself.

Because everything I have read here on this board is about some of you guys mixing and matching and swapping out tubes and getting different sounds out of each and every swap.

I don't need to try them because I'm not interested in doing so, but at the same time I don't care if you and others care to do so. Nor does it mean that tubes are better, it just means that some of you prefer the sound of tubes as opposed to the sound of SS amps driving your gear.

I am a fan and believer of consistency, and just sitting back and enjoying the tunes. I am not interested in rebuilding my 23 year old speakers or rebuilding crossovers or swapping out the tweeters in them or doing so in the brand new LSIM speakers.

I would say that the majority of us are not the least bit interested in doing so. But for those of you that are, go ahead knock yourselves out.

Thorton

Schmattage my hiney! Bring the Power. Room size, distance from speakers, speaker efficiency, personal listening loudness, etc. all have to be added to the equation.

tonyb

SCompRacer wrote: »

“Very large reserves of clean, fast, and stable power impart improvements in clarity, liquidity, tactile sensation and emotional impact to well-recorded music that must be heard to be believed.”
:

I'll fall in this camp myself. But really it depends on your listening habits and what exactly it is your powering.....as in speakers. Also I fall in the camp of "all watts are not created equal". It is true we put too much emphasis on watts when we should be talking current. 100 watts from an AVR.......or 100 watts from a tube amp, even a SS amp, no comparison at all.

This is why we always state quality watts is more important than quantity. If you can get both in one amp then you are on the cusp of your holy grail. There's more to audio than meets the eye or the next flavor of the month review. Unfortunately not everyone is willing to dive that deep into knowledge or understanding the basic principles of audio.

Cathy stated it herself, she just wants to turn on the gear and enjoy the tunes. Nothing wrong with that scenario, and most people probably feel the same way which is why we audio nutjobs are somewhat of a niche market. Good sound can be had at any level, we all know that, but I just dislike the idea that some purpose that spending more coin or moving on to higher levels of enjoyment is silly.

What makes this forum stand out in my opinion, is that regardless if you just want a computer rig, head phone rig, HTIB rig, 2 channel or full blown HT, our knowledge base here can help anyone get good sound out of anything....well almost anything.

That said, Flea amps......dig 'em. You'd be surprised when matched up to highly efficient speakers the sound that can come out of these things.....especially with horns. Horns aren't my cup of tea but if they were, you betcha I'd be seriously looking at some of these low wattage flea amps.

My advice to some of you is to just get out and visit some higher end shops, look for guys who may live by you who own higher end gear and just.....LISTEN. You don't have to commit to buying anything, you may never reach certain levels of spending in your audio budget, but just to hear what is possible in audio reproduction will blow your mind.

cfrizz

DSkip wrote: »

...Cathy, I think all of us would be better off if we could just be happy with our system like you are. I don't know what it is that makes you so content because its obvious you'll spend money in the hobby, but its somewhat refreshing to see someone completely content.

I think I'm content with my system because I decided as a teenager that one of my goals in life was to have a good stereo system. Well I not only achieved it, I EXCEEDED it beyond my wildest dreams, and a good percentage of the credit has to go to this forum! Could it be better of course things can always be improved, but for me it would not be worth the considerable expense that it would take to get there, and I would be totally pissed if I spent all that money just to get a minimal amount of better sound. When I spend that kind of money I want to hear a BIG improvement. So it's a combination of how content I am now, as well as my practical nature coming into play.

For example, I am starting to consider getting an all in one phone/tablet/mp3 player. The Samsung Note looks great, but I don't need a plan, and I really don't want to spend over $600.00 to buy one out right from T-Mobile. So until someone comes out with one that has a minimum of a 5" screen I will keep my little phone and using my Samsung 5.0 media player for everything else.

heiney9

That's admirable Cathy and you have a very nice rig. But, on the flip side you need to stop ragging on those that do want to go the next few levels up, spend lots more $$$ and get more enjoyment without pulling out the "elitist or snob" card and that goes for a lot of people here.

H9

doctor r

As far as wattage I started my experience with Polk speakers with the infamous NAD 3020 and the 7B monitors. 20 watts of amazement is all I can say. For 20 years I needed no more. The only thing that forced my hand was the NAD deciding on its own it deserved to retire. I mourned for a time and the started down the path that put me here. 100 watts per channel of KT88 power with massive transformers and .......
Certainly different and more substantial, but those twenty years of twenty watts ..... I am so glad I had them.

cfrizz

heiney9 wrote: »

That's admirable Cathy and you have a very nice rig. But, on the flip side you need to stop ragging on those that do want to go the next few levels up, spend lots more $$$ and get more enjoyment without pulling out the "elitist or snob" card and that goes for a lot of people here.

H9

The only time I get to ragging is when those of you who spend more dollars immediately start ragging on Emotiva or other supposed "Entry" level gear just because you have grown so far beyond it. Entry level is relative to each individual person. You immediately point people to buy used gear that you consider better, totally discounting the fact that not everyone is comfortable buying used products. None of this gear is cheap new or used and some people will feel more comfortable buying brand new.

I would say that just about any separates are better than an all in one receivers that includes Emotiva, & Outlaw Audio.

If people will stop jumping into Emotiva discussions to put them down and simply ignore those threads these train wrecks wouldn't happen, and thoughts of these people being snobs/elitists wouldn't occur. Live and let live can/should be practiced on BOTH sides of these discussions.

ALL212

"If people will stop jumping into Emotiva discussions to put them down and simply ignore those threads these train wrecks wouldn't happen, and thoughts of these people being snobs/elitists wouldn't occur. Live and let live can/should be practiced on BOTH sides of these discussions. "

Hammer, nail, head...

heiney9

DSkip wrote: »

Its all about education. I've backed off considerably because I realize you can't teach someone who has their head so far up their **** they can't hear you. Again, we are battling the notion that Emotiva is God's gift to audio. It isn't. If someone is willing to buy used, they can easily top the performance of Emo. There are SO MANY options out there that people need to get their learn on before proclaiming such garbage. That was part of the idea behind my $1k budget system: get names of gear out there that is very reasonably priced that newer hobbyists might not know about.

As far as Emotiva and their gear, I actually talked with a friend here last night and we both agreed that we would like to hear Emotiva amps pushing LSiM's. We both think that, sonically, they would probably be a pretty good match, especially for a theater setup. I think Emotiva gear is a good option if all you want is new and a warranty. They aren't giant killers, even if their specs say they are. I can liken that to my experience with the Realistic STA-2000D and Marantz 2216. The Realistic was a beast, well built at about 3 times the weight, and put out 4 times the power. Put them head-to-head, and the Marantz ran circles around the Realistic. My point? Spec's are great, but they don't mean a damn thing when it comes to performance. Emotiva lives off those specs because everyone equates power with good sound. Again, back to the education point...

Emotiva did a great job offering amps with specs that are damn hard to beat and separate processors that you can't find anywhere else for the price (outside of Outlaw). They tapped into a population that needed to be tapped into, and I applaud them for that. I just wish people would understand what Emotiva is and not make them what they want it to be.

Hammer, nail, head

ALL212

Mikey081057 wrote: »

We tend to put a lot of emphasis on wattage when talking about amplifiers, so as an experiment I hooked my LSI 7's up to my 8.5 yes that is 8 point 5 wpc Qinpu A3 amp in my office rig, and you know what? They sound awesome. Plenty of gain, no distortion no clipping no ****! The 7's are 4ohms, and the amp isn't even close to hot yet... Been running for 2 hours.

Probably not going to get 120 db's out of them, but 84db at about 12:00 on the vol...

And they sound sweet.

I'm not seeing the word Emotiva anywhere in this OP original thread. WTF do these last two posts have to do with this thread?

heiney9

cfrizz wrote: »

The only time I get to ragging is when those of you who spend more dollars immediately start ragging on Emotiva or other supposed "Entry" level gear just because you have grown so far beyond it. Entry level is relative to each individual person. You immediately point people to buy used gear that you consider better, totally discounting the fact that not everyone is comfortable buying used products. None of this gear is cheap new or used and some people will feel more comfortable buying brand new.

I would say that just about any separates are better than an all in one receivers that includes Emotiva, & Outlaw Audio.

If people will stop jumping into Emotiva discussions to put them down and simply ignore those threads these train wrecks wouldn't happen, and thoughts of these people being snobs/elitists wouldn't occur. Live and let live can/should be practiced on BOTH sides of these discussions.

ALL212 wrote: »

"If people will stop jumping into Emotiva discussions to put them down and simply ignore those threads these train wrecks wouldn't happen, and thoughts of these people being snobs/elitists wouldn't occur. Live and let live can/should be practiced on BOTH sides of these discussions. "

Hammer, nail, head...

Started with Cathy's post.....then you quoted said post....then Dskip commented and then I commented. The OP didn't mention it, but then someone did and the discussion took a turn.

H9

ALL212

heiney9 wrote: »

That's admirable Cathy and you have a very nice rig. But, on the flip side you need to stop ragging on those that do want to go the next few levels up, spend lots more $$$ and get more enjoyment without pulling out the "elitist or snob" card and that goes for a lot of people here.

H9

Looks like you forgot to get H9's permission first. Either he or F1 have to be asked first as usually they're the only ones that can do that.

Didn't you read the rules first?

I've read her post 10 times - not one RAG in it anywhere. She's happy. (that's a period) and that's what she stated.

heiney9

Aaron, it's from history over the past 6-7 years. I wasn't talking about this singular thread. If you spent more time here you'd know that. And I'm not saying that in a nasty way at all, it's just a fact. See much of the interaction here is based on a history of knowing people and their tenancies, beliefs, etc. not just a singular comment in one singular thread.

You tend to jump into threads occasionally, and make flippant comments not knowing the above. Just my observation and again not meant mean spirited at all. Unless I'm wrong and you lurk here several hours a day getting to know everyone and how they interact and what their stance, attitude and beliefs are on this board. Pearsall (Phil) and I go back and forth constantly. We've met at Polk fests and have a great time debating face to face over beer. It certainly would seem weird to someone who didn't know that and thought we were just pissing in each other Wheaties. I've met Cathy on one occasion and I do respect her beliefs in the hobby, but I also feel I can push back at times when I don't agree.

H9

cfrizz

ALL212 wrote: »

Looks like you forgot to get H9's permission first. Either he or F1 have to be asked first as usually they're the only ones that can do that.

Didn't you read the rules first?

I've read her post 10 times - not one RAG in it anywhere. She's happy. (that's a period) and that's what she stated.

Easy does it Aaron, I know where H9 is coming from and he knows where I'm coming from. Neither one of us were slamming the other.

heiney9 wrote: »

Aaron, it's from history over the past 6-7 years. I wasn't talking about this singular thread. If you spent more time here you'd know that. And I'm not saying that in a nasty way at all, it's just a fact. See much of the interaction here is based on a history of knowing people and their tenancies, beliefs, etc. not just a singular comment in one singular thread.

You tend to jump into threads occasionally, and make flippant comments not knowing the above. Just my observation and again not meant mean spirited at all. Unless I'm wrong and you lurk here several hours a day getting to know everyone and how they interact and what their stance, attitude and beliefs are on this board. Pearsall (Phil) and I go back and forth constantly. We've met at Polk fests and have a great time debating face to face over beer. It certainly would seem weird to someone who didn't know that and thought we were just pissing in each other Wheaties. I've met Cathy on one occasion and I do respect her beliefs in the hobby, but I also feel I can push back at times when I don't agree.

H9

Thanks H9, I feel the same way about your beliefs. It usually just comes down to how those beliefs are presented that clashes can occur. Have a good weekend & enjoy the tunes!

ALL212

"I've met Brock on more than one occasion and I do respect his beliefs in the hobby, but I also feel I can push back at times when I don't agree."

One of the reasons I don't spend much time in here is because the lack of respect between members. You should probably take into consideration that there might be people who would like to be in this forum but because they read posts like yours they probably move on to other forums. I'm sure that doesn't bother you, however, it would be nice not to have to read the post you followed up with on Cathy's remark - it didn't add anything to the thread. It makes you, not her, look condescending and rude. Which, after popping in here time and again, appears to be more the rule with your posts than the exception.

I shouldn't have to read every post from every member to come in here and glean info. I was interested in the OP's remarks, read up and found the train wreck.

And I find more and more threads in this condition...

mhardy6647

FWIW... I don't swap tubes. I will admit to changing 2A3s once I got that pair of rather goofy looking Sofia "mesh" plates.


I listen.

Yes the HF driver on my speakers is horn loaded. The LF driver's a direct radiator, albeit a sensitive one.
Altec Duplexes. Look 'em up...

tonyb

DSkip wrote: »

If you find more threads in this condition, then you're hand-picking threads. Unwad those panties and have a good time man. We're all here to help each other, no matter how it might appear.

LOL.....Now that's sig material there. Good advice......