Amplifier suggestions for LSIM setup

Sumerian
Sumerian Posts: 490
edited August 2013 in Speakers
Aloha Polkies,


I am a newbie here,
recently did a very long awaited upgrade from Sony 5.1 setup to Polk LSIM 5.1 setup

Fronts Lsim 707
Center Lsim706c
Sorrounds Lsim 703
Subwoofer pro 660 wi

My current AVR is Onkyo TX-NR709

Specifications for TX NR 709

Front L/R 110 W + 110 W (8 ohms, 20 Hz-20 kHz, 0.08%, 2 channels driven, FTC)
130 W + 130 W (6 ohms, 1 kHz, 0.1%, 2 channels driven, FTC)

Center 110 W (8 ohms, 20 Hz-20 kHz, 0.08%, 2 channels driven, FTC)
130 W (6 ohms, 1 kHz, 0.1%, 2 channels driven, FTC)

Surround L/R 110 W + 110 W (8 ohms, 20 Hz-20 kHz, 0.08%, 2 channels driven, FTC)
130 W + 130 W (6 ohms, 1 kHz, 0.1%, 2 channels driven, FTC)

Surround Back L/R 110 W + 110 W (8 ohms, 20 Hz-20 kHz, 0.08%, 2 channels driven, FTC)
130 W + 130 W (6 ohms, 1 kHz, 0.1%, 2 channels driven, FTC)

Dynamic Power 250 W (3 ohms, 1 ch)
220 W (4 ohms, 1 ch)
130 W (8 ohms, 1 ch)


By no means I am a Audiophile but certainly would love to get right equipment to back up my new setup.

I would greatly appreciate if you guys can suggest a good amplifier to back up the LSIMs with out breaking my accounts :wink:

Do I need a Amplifier or bi amping them from my AVR is good enough?

I am very sorry if this question is already beaten to death here. I did search the forum but couldn't find any specific suggestions for LSIMs.

Thanks in Advance.
Post edited by Sumerian on
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Comments

  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 50,828
    edited August 2013
    Are they not sounding good to you now? Is that why you're asking about a power amp? If so, what's your budget?
    bi amping them from my AVR

    Bi-amping from an AVR is impossible. You can do a Google search to find out what bi-amping really is.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."

    President of Club Polk

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  • Sumerian
    Sumerian Posts: 490
    edited August 2013
    My budget is 1k to 1.5k i can stretch it if i am getting better value.
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  • Irrenhaus
    Irrenhaus Posts: 1,094
    edited August 2013
    That is one hell of an upgrade from Sony....:smile:

    I have an 709 and it will not do the job for those nice Polk's. What is the budget on the amp and forget about bi-amp. Something like this may be nice:

    http://sfbay.craigslist.org/nby/ele/4014986311.html

    Huli pau!
    HTAVR-Pioneer SC99XPA-DR3 Differential Reference AmpPolk R-700Rear- RT150Side- RT150Center-CSi5Sub-Rythmik audio F25Player- Panasonic DP-UB9000Projector- Optoma CinemaX P2Screen- Silver Ticket Products STR Series 6 120"Audio Room 2ch rig.Cary AE-3, Onkyo M-504, Marantz SA8005, Azur 851NWharfedale - Linton, SVS SB12-NSDMinis Forum PC (streamer) and Panamax MX5105Headphone rig;Schiit JOTUNHEIM and different headphones.Samsung 42" flat screen TV.
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  • pretzelfisch
    pretzelfisch Posts: 160
    edited August 2013
    what size is your room?
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  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 50,828
    edited August 2013
    Sumerian wrote: »
    My budget is 1k to 1.5k i can stretch it if i am getting better value.

    Here's a few good choices culled from the used market in your price range.

    Rotel RMB-1095 - 200wpc x 5

    Aragon 3005 - 300wpc x 5

    Anthem Statement A5 - 225wpc x 5

    B&K 200.7 - 200wpc x 7
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."

    President of Club Polk

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  • Sumerian
    Sumerian Posts: 490
    edited August 2013
    pretzelfisch wrote: »
    what size is your room?

    it is a open floor
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  • Sumerian
    Sumerian Posts: 490
    edited August 2013
    Irrenhaus wrote: »
    That is one hell of an upgrade from Sony....:smile:

    Yes it is.. i am very exited.
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  • Sumerian
    Sumerian Posts: 490
    edited August 2013
    Thanks for the suggestions guys greatly appreciate the input.

    Looks like Rotel is the most recommended Amp brand over here...
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  • jeremymarcinko
    jeremymarcinko Posts: 3,785
    edited August 2013
    You can get a New "b-stock" ATI 1805(180w/5ch) within you budget. It comes with a 7 year warranty.
    http://www.classicaudioparts.com/index.php/amplifiers/ati-at1805-five-channel-x-180-watt-amplifier-b-stock-120v.html
    Oh, Listen here mister. We got no way of understandin' this world. But we got as much sense of this bird flyin in the sky. Now there is a lot that bird don't know, but it don't change the fact that the world is happening to him all the same. What I am tryin to say is, is that the course of your life, well its changing, and you don't even see it- Forest Bondurant
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  • Sumerian
    Sumerian Posts: 490
    edited August 2013
    jeremymarcinko wrote: »
    You can get a New "b-stock" ATI 1805(180w/5ch) within you budget. It comes with a 7 year warranty.
    http://www.classicaudioparts.com/index.php/amplifiers/ati-at1805-five-channel-x-180-watt-amplifier-b-stock-120v.html

    Thanks for the suggestion, I am not aware of this particular brand ..how good are these?
    And also the out put is 180 watts will there be significant difference between 200 watts and this?
    Sorry for the noob questions
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  • jeremymarcinko
    jeremymarcinko Posts: 3,785
    edited August 2013
    They are at least as good as the other amps mentioned. They actually own and manufacture the b&k amps mentioned above.
    Oh, Listen here mister. We got no way of understandin' this world. But we got as much sense of this bird flyin in the sky. Now there is a lot that bird don't know, but it don't change the fact that the world is happening to him all the same. What I am tryin to say is, is that the course of your life, well its changing, and you don't even see it- Forest Bondurant
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  • ZLTFUL
    ZLTFUL Posts: 5,657
    edited August 2013
    Sumerian wrote: »
    Thanks for the suggestion, I am not aware of this particular brand ..how good are these?
    And also the out put is 180 watts will there be significant difference between 200 watts and this?
    Sorry for the noob questions

    It takes twice the amount of power to get a 3db increase at a given volume level. So, no, the 20 watt per channel difference will not be noticeable unless you have some VERY sensitive test equipment.
    "Some people find it easier to be conceited rather than correct."

    "Unwad those panties and have a good time man. We're all here to help each other, no matter how it might appear." DSkip
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  • Sumerian
    Sumerian Posts: 490
    edited August 2013
    Thanks a lot for all the replies guys, greatly appreciate your time.

    After reading on quite a bit on forums i have shortlisted Emotiva XPR-5 for now, i know its not well regarded brand here but the fact that i can try it and return it if dont like really sold me for now.


    Just waiting for labour day weekend sales.
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  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 50,828
    edited August 2013
    Shakes head...walks away.....
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."

    President of Club Polk

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  • tonyb
    tonyb Posts: 33,023
    edited August 2013
    Sumerian wrote: »
    Looks like Rotel is the most recommended Amp brand over here...

    Curious as to how you surmised that. I only saw Rotel mentioned once in this thread, along with others. Yet the one brand nobody mentioned, you shortlisted ? Why ask the question if you already know the answer ?
    HT SYSTEM-
    Sony 850c 4k
    Pioneer elite vhx 21
    Sony 4k BRP
    SVS SB-2000
    Polk Sig. 20's
    Polk FX500 surrounds

    Cables-
    Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
    Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
    Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
    Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable

    Kitchen

    Sonos zp90
    Grant Fidelity tube dac
    B&k 1420
    lsi 9's
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  • ken brydson
    ken brydson Posts: 8,789
    edited August 2013
    F1nut wrote: »
    Shakes head...walks away.....

    hehe
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  • jeremymarcinko
    jeremymarcinko Posts: 3,785
    edited August 2013
    Just fyi the XPR-5 requires a 20 amp outlet. Something to consider.
    Oh, Listen here mister. We got no way of understandin' this world. But we got as much sense of this bird flyin in the sky. Now there is a lot that bird don't know, but it don't change the fact that the world is happening to him all the same. What I am tryin to say is, is that the course of your life, well its changing, and you don't even see it- Forest Bondurant
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  • cfrizz
    cfrizz Posts: 13,415
    edited August 2013
    tonyb wrote: »
    Curious as to how you surmised that. I only saw Rotel mentioned once in this thread, along with others. Yet the one brand nobody mentioned, you shortlisted ? Why ask the question if you already know the answer ?

    It's very simple and very clear Tony. He is interested in the Emotiva because it's a NEW product, with a warranty, and he can return it if he wants to. This is very important to most people. If he buys used he doesn't have any of the above listed.

    You guys might not like it but the fact that Emotiva is still in business is because they allow people to get into higher end gear at a reasonable price than you can get out of Best Buy or going to some high end shop where he will pay a whole lot more for brand new.
    Marantz AV-7705 PrePro, Classé 5 channel 200wpc Amp, Oppo 103 BluRay, Rotel RCD-1072 CDP, Sony XBR-49X800E TV, Polk S60 Main Speakers, Polk ES30 Center Channel, Polk S15 Surround Speakers SVS SB12-NSD x2
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  • Sumerian
    Sumerian Posts: 490
    edited August 2013
    jeremymarcinko wrote: »
    Just fyi the XPR-5 requires a 20 amp outlet. Something to consider.

    Initially i also thought it might not work but i came across the below post

    From the owner of Emotiva


    Hi guys,
    As I've said several times before, we use the 20 amp style connector because we must pass
    CE testing and the 15 amp style is not adequate for the currents that can be drawn during compliance testing. The use of the plug adapters is completely safe in a house with normal wiring.

    But remember, you are not running load banks with continuous sine wave testing at home. You are playing movies and listening to music. The duty cycle is far less demanding.

    Now, if you want to, and especially if you have several large amplifiers in the system, you should consider running a dedicated 20 amp feed, but the reality is that it is not really necessary for most humans.

    The XPR's can ask for large power peaks, but the average home power wiring is usually quite adequate and completely safe. The great thing about home circuits is they are designed to allow brief high current spikes, but long term overloads (the type that cause the house wiring to heat up and pose a safety risk) are well protected by your homes circuit breakers.

    There are a few of you out there that can exceed the capabilities of any power source, but we're talking about normal people at the moment.

    My rule is this. Try it. If you EVER trip the breaker, upgrade the service. 99+ % of you will never have to do this.
    Cheers,
    Big Dan
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  • Sumerian
    Sumerian Posts: 490
    edited August 2013
    tonyb wrote: »
    Curious as to how you surmised that. I only saw Rotel mentioned once in this thread, along with others. Yet the one brand nobody mentioned, you shortlisted ? Why ask the question if you already know the answer ?


    I mean to say , I have searched for all Amplifier suggestion threads (Here in polk club) and i saw the name Rotel come up quite often
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  • Ocezam
    Ocezam Posts: 52
    edited August 2013
    Sumerian wrote: »
    After reading on quite a bit on forums i have shortlisted Emotiva XPR-5 for now, i know its not well regarded brand here but the fact that i can try it and return it if dont like really sold me for now.

    I bet you'll love that amp.

    Enjoy...
    "The ear is not a microphone, the brain is not a tape recorder, and measurements are limited in describing subjective quality." Nelson Pass

    2 Channel:
    XDA-2, Modified Jolida JD502P (2 ea), Polk LSiM705
    Theater:
    Onkyo TX-NR3009 with 9 active channels, Emotiva XPA-5, MartinLogan Encore TF Center Channel, Polk M70 Mains, M40 Wides, M30 Heights, FXi A4 Surrounds, Custom built 18" sub, Mitsu 73" DLP
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  • Sumerian
    Sumerian Posts: 490
    edited August 2013
    F1nut wrote: »
    Shakes head...walks away.....
    tonyb wrote: »
    Curious as to how you surmised that. I only saw Rotel mentioned once in this thread, along with others. Yet the one brand nobody mentioned, you shortlisted ? Why ask the question if you already know the answer ?

    Sorry guys i didnt mean to offend/disrespect any of you.


    Let me explain my thought process,

    Price was not the deciding factor

    Reasons I shortlisted (Not finalized) Emotiva XPR-5

    1. 707 are rated 20-300 watts in order to get best SQ and to have a decent head room I thought I may have to get amplifier at least 300 or more…. Am I wrong? Wont it make a difference between Amplifier with 200 watts and 400 watts?

    2. Wanted to get a new one since I am not confident buying a used one and also I couldn’t access the sales section here…. Is there any audiophile/decently reviewed amps with 300 to 400 watts rating and less than 2500$ new and shipped?

    3. I called Emotiva CC three times , it’s always a person who picks the phone not some answering machine (This is not a big deal but made me think they are serious about what they are doing)


    4. Read decent reviews if not great reviews about Emotiva XPR-5… but what is the real reason for dislike? why veteran audiophiles seems to dislike them?

    Honestly speaking I am still searching I just shared my thoughts that Emotiva seems to be good option as I said “i have shortlisted Emotiva XPR-5 for now” … I haven’t decided :smile:

    Talk me out of it, I am all your ears…… I am not trying to cheap out (If it is the case I would have just thought of XPA-5, half the price of XPR-5) .. I really want to get right equipment to back up my speakers at the same time I don’t want to go overkill.

    So again, I am still listening to your opinions ….I really like to get your suggestions and I would love to be corrected.
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  • pretzelfisch
    pretzelfisch Posts: 160
    edited August 2013
    where do you tend to look on line for new amps. I have had trouble finding what look to be reputable re sellers?
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  • WLDock
    WLDock Posts: 3,073
    edited August 2013
    Sumerian wrote: »
    Thanks for the suggestion, I am not aware of this particular brand ..how good are these?
    And also the out put is 180 watts will there be significant difference between 200 watts and this? Sorry for the noob questions
    ATI is an OEM builder like Jade Design, Inc. that owns EMOTIVA, Sherborn, and now partnered with Carver. Both have made amps for several companies. ATI has builts amps for: Lexicon, JBL, Mark Levinson, Earthquake Cinenova, Outlaw Audio, Cary Audio, Adcom, etc. ATI amps are made in the USA and have a 7 year warranty! That ATI1805 that was mentioned is a SOLID amp. Regular price $2995.00 / B-Stock at $1295.00
    "All 1800 series amps have dual toroidal power transformers, 22,400 microfarads of capacitance per channel in the power supply and monoblock construction with everything except the transformer on a single PCB."
    http://www.wwsp.com/ati/atibrochure.pdf
    http://www.ati-amp.com/home.php

    OTOH, the Emotiva XPR-5 seems like a BEAST! But, I don't get the need for such an amp with speakers like the LSiM that are easy to drive and Polk recommends up to 20-250 watts? Seems, the $700 saved getting the ATI above would be better spent elsewhere?

    Anyway, also consider the ATI made Outlaw Audio Model 7500 balanced design (5 x 200 watts) is $1599 new / $1479 B-Stock. Outlaw Audio is internet direct like Emotiva...so you get a great product for less.

    Good thread that talks about the build quality of the 7500 vs. the EMO XPA-5
    http://www.hometheaterequipment.com/multi-channel-amps-60/outlaw-audio-model-7500-five-channel-amplifier-official-thread-thread-365/

    Reviews
    http://www.hometheater.com/content/outlaw-audio-7500-5-channel-power-amplifier
    http://hometheaterreview.com/outlaw-audio-model-7500-multi-channel-amplifier-reviewed/

    Internal pictures
    http://www.avsforum.com/content/type/61/id/72474/
    http://www.outlawaudio.com/

    I have not owned any of these but the great reviews and direct pricing make them about the best value around short of finding one of the BIG name amps used.
    2.2 Office Setup | LG 29UB55 21:9 UltraWide | HP Probook 630 G8 | Dell Latitude | Cabasse Stream Amp 100 | Boston Acoustics VS 240 | AUDIORAX Desk Stands | Mirage Omni S8 sub1 | Mirage Omni S8 Sub2
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  • WLDock
    WLDock Posts: 3,073
    edited August 2013
    Sumerian wrote: »
    1.707 are rated 20-300 watts in order to get best SQ and to have a decent head room I thought I may have to get amplifier at least 300 or more…. Am I wrong? Wont it make a difference between Amplifier with 200 watts and 400 watts?
    How big is your room? How loud do you want to get? Here is a good easy to understand read on power and speaker sensitivity:

    Secrets of Amplifier And Speaker Power Requirements Revealed!
    http://www.axiomaudio.com/power

    So, using the above...and taking a ball park average...your 707's playing alone should do about 103 dB at 12 feet with 100 watts. But, factor in the room, the center, the sub, the surrounds the system will be loud and cleaner than what you are coming from.

    "very loud," a level defined as about 90 dB Sound Pressure Level (SPL),

    a full orchestra and chorus in a concert hall will measure 106 dB"

    OSHA Daily Permissible Noise Level Exposure
    97dB-3 Hrs
    100dB-2 Hrs
    102dB-1.5 Hr
    105dB-1 Hr
    90 - 95dB - Level at which sustained exposure may result in hearing loss


    The Decibel (dB) and the Violin/Piano Recital - http://www.axiomaudio.com/whatisdb

    Soft to Loud: The Nature of Power and Dynamic Headroom http://www.axiomaudio.com/dynamicheadroom

    Ten Things You Always Wanted to Know About Amplifiers: http://www.axiomaudio.com/aboutamplifiers

    There is nothing wrong with reserve power...but how much do you really need and are willing to pay for?
    2.2 Office Setup | LG 29UB55 21:9 UltraWide | HP Probook 630 G8 | Dell Latitude | Cabasse Stream Amp 100 | Boston Acoustics VS 240 | AUDIORAX Desk Stands | Mirage Omni S8 sub1 | Mirage Omni S8 Sub2
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  • Sumerian
    Sumerian Posts: 490
    edited August 2013
    WLDock,

    Thanks a bunch for all those pointers and links, I am reading/loooking into them now.

    Room size is big which includes living room + kitchen + Dining in a L shape

    I am not looking to play them louder but looking for clear/punch which my old system lacks .... i was thinking higher watts adds that extra to the mid levels without straining the amplifier or speaker.

    How much? i still dont know.... do you guys think going beyond 200 watts is over kill? wont the extra power help future upgrades?
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  • WLDock
    WLDock Posts: 3,073
    edited August 2013
    Nothing wrong with extra power....but many if not all of the new and used amps linked are ROBUST! and will deliver the rated power with all channels driven. Many receivers don't come close to what a good amp can do. A solid amp that does 150-200 watts @ 8 Ohms x 5 is more than enough for MANY speakers and should be future proof. 300-500 watts x 5 or 7 IMO is for large systems with power hungry speakers(The Lsi line comes to mind) in large rooms.

    You decide...either way you will be set for a long time.
    2.2 Office Setup | LG 29UB55 21:9 UltraWide | HP Probook 630 G8 | Dell Latitude | Cabasse Stream Amp 100 | Boston Acoustics VS 240 | AUDIORAX Desk Stands | Mirage Omni S8 sub1 | Mirage Omni S8 Sub2
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  • cfrizz
    cfrizz Posts: 13,415
    edited August 2013
    There is no such thing as overkill when it comes to power. You have the right idea, the more power you have the better the speakers will run to their full potential that a receiver or a lower power amp won't be able to provide.

    These guys are all over the map when it comes to power recommendations, and as you can see some of them want to get all specific down to the size of the room etc.

    I always recommend getting at least a 200 wpc amp, if you can afford more, buy more. this much power allows just about any speaker to operate to their full potential, and it has very little to do with volume. You get better bass, better clarity in vocals, instruments, separation etc.

    There are no hard rules in this hobby and you are only limited in what you can/want to spend and what sounds good to you. Go for it!
    Marantz AV-7705 PrePro, Classé 5 channel 200wpc Amp, Oppo 103 BluRay, Rotel RCD-1072 CDP, Sony XBR-49X800E TV, Polk S60 Main Speakers, Polk ES30 Center Channel, Polk S15 Surround Speakers SVS SB12-NSD x2
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  • Sumerian
    Sumerian Posts: 490
    edited August 2013
    You guys are the best!

    Just curious and please dont take me wrong why is that "b-stock" ATI 1805" 50% off

    generally B stock are only 15 to 20% off ... Are these damaged peices which are fixed?
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  • jeremymarcinko
    jeremymarcinko Posts: 3,785
    edited August 2013
    Just cosmetic manufacturing imperfections. "Electronically perfect". They are not all 50% off some more some less. Classic Audio Parts is ATI. Same address and phone number on their respective websites. Just give them a call or email. You will probably speak with Jeff Hipps he is their sales guy, he will be answer any questions you have about "b-stock" items. (323) 278-0001
    Oh, Listen here mister. We got no way of understandin' this world. But we got as much sense of this bird flyin in the sky. Now there is a lot that bird don't know, but it don't change the fact that the world is happening to him all the same. What I am tryin to say is, is that the course of your life, well its changing, and you don't even see it- Forest Bondurant
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