Room Size and Placement... Could that be my problem?

jonwb

Hi,

I have a 21'x12' living room w/vaulted ceilings that I'm trying to setup with full "projecting" stereo sound. Due to window and furniture constraints, the speakers HAVE to go on the shorter 12' wall. The problem I'm having is that the sound seems to stay along that wall and doesn't envelope you once you're about 8 to 10' out into the room. I'm wondering if the nearby wall reflections are causing this?

I'm using older Monitor 10a's with the SL1000 replacement tweeters. Polk sent me these a long time ago when the Peerless tweeters were blown accidentally. The 10s are probably in need of a crossover upgrade but I'm not sure I want to get into that until I'm sure the issue isn't room or placement related. Any opinions?

Thanks

boston1450

Is there a way you could post a picture of how you have them set up now ? Im assuming youve moved them around some & tried different positions. I use to have a 16+24 room. But i had SDA's and it worked quite well on the 16 ft wall facing my couch n love seat area. Pictures may help

boston1450

Are those 10's on stands ? I notice a big difference on the stands vs floor. Brings the tweets up

dragon1952

As for the placement, I've had great luck with this method
http://www.cardas.com/room_setup_main.php

Of course, not everyone can do this because of WAF , etc.

boston1450

dragon1952 wrote: »

As for the placement, I've had great luck with this method
http://www.cardas.com/room_setup_main.php

Of course, not everyone can do this because of WAF , etc.

cool chart & calculator. There are so many variables in placement of speakers. Room sizes. Speakers. Furniture. WAF & more

jonwb

Thanks for the responses. This is my setup.. a mess currently. One of the Polk 10s is out of view. I use the Polk 10s short stands that they came with. The receiver is a refurbished SX-750 (50wpc). I have a newer Yamaha (70wpc) receiver that I can use too. I brought out my Polk Monitor 5jrs just to see what response I'd get. They're definitely more detailed in the mid and higher ranges but lack the low end that the 10s have (obviously). Unfortunately the M5s "project" the least off the short wall. The 10s fill the room better but like a said, don't sound quite as good and clear as they used to.

boston1450

Your room placement is kind of like one of the rooms i have my 10's in now also. It makes it hard to get them set up properly. With the furniture..---to the right i see chair then couch ? Where is the other 10 sit ?--- With the problem i had with my 10's where they were at. I took my 7's and put them on large stands so the went over the furnature. With still having the tweets at ear level. I noticed a big difference. My 10 stands are stock also with the tilt back. Which would be proper if they were right in front of you toed a hair or so on a 14 ft wall....but being in odd ball spots surrounded by furnature makes it a different ballgame..im sure you e played around with placement. I hope thats the issue here & not something else. Maybe someone else will chime in

boston1450

Oh. Nice speakers BTW.

boston1450

Have you tried placing both 10's on each side on Fireplace Moving the lamp somewhere else. With receiver to left side of stand up light. I know we all like to put receiver in middle. Just a though

treitz3

Hello, jonwb and please allow me to first welcome you to the forum. With the room you have, a total makeover is necessary in order to achieve what you are looking to achieve. The link dragon1952 provided on post #4 basically spells out what needs to happen in order for you to achieve what it is you are looking for. There are many more links that we can provide for optimum stereo setups but it is useless unless the very basics are covered. With that said, try your very best to create the Cardas Golden Cuboid in that room [however you can make it happen] and let the rest of the room fall where it will. Otherwise, is there another room that the stereo can possibly be set up within the house?

Tom

westmassguy

treitz3 wrote: »

Hello, jonwb and please allow me to first welcome you to the forum. With the room you have, a total makeover is necessary in order to achieve what you are looking to achieve. The link dragon1952 provided on post #4 basically spells out what needs to happen in order for you to achieve what it is you are looking for. There are many more links that we can provide for optimum stereo setups but it is useless unless the very basics are covered. With that said, try your very best to create the Cardas Golden Cuboid in that room [however you can make it happen] and let the rest of the room fall where it will. Otherwise, is there another room that the stereo can possibly be set up within the house?

Tom

+1. Without proper placement of the speakers, and listening position, you'll be chasing you tail trying to figure out why it doesn't sound like it should.

jonwb

boston1450 wrote: »

Your room placement is kind of like one of the rooms i have my 10's in now also. It makes it hard to get them set up properly. With the furniture..---to the right i see chair then couch ? Where is the other 10 sit ?--- With the problem i had with my 10's where they were at. I took my 7's and put them on large stands so the went over the furnature. With still having the tweets at ear level. I noticed a big difference. My 10 stands are stock also with the tilt back. Which would be proper if they were right in front of you toed a hair or so on a 14 ft wall....but being in odd ball spots surrounded by furnature makes it a different ballgame..im sure you e played around with placement. I hope thats the issue here & not something else. Maybe someone else will chime in

Thanks boston... the other 10 was temporarily off to the side in the picture. It was originally near the corner where the M5s were being tested. I'll raise the 10s off the floor today to simulate what you did with your 7s. If it's still not adequate I may have to abandon the effort. Thanks for the comment on my speakers!

jonwb

boston1450 wrote: »

Have you tried placing both 10's on each side on Fireplace Moving the lamp somewhere else. With receiver to left side of stand up light. I know we all like to put receiver in middle. Just a though

Yes, but with the small stands. I'll raise them later today after work.

jonwb

treitz3 wrote: »

Hello, jonwb and please allow me to first welcome you to the forum. With the room you have, a total makeover is necessary in order to achieve what you are looking to achieve. The link dragon1952 provided on post #4 basically spells out what needs to happen in order for you to achieve what it is you are looking for. There are many more links that we can provide for optimum stereo setups but it is useless unless the very basics are covered. With that said, try your very best to create the Cardas Golden Cuboid in that room [however you can make it happen] and let the rest of the room fall where it will. Otherwise, is there another room that the stereo can possibly be set up within the house?

Thanks... after reviewing the link from Dragon, I'm beginning to see your concerns. This room is connected to a dining room (out of sight to the right) and because of that big bay window, the couch and chairs have to go out "into" the room, leaving very few options for me. I think we've determined that my room dimensions (and limited placement) are hurting the effort. Like I told boston, I'll raise the 10s later today to see if the disbursement is better. Otherwise, this may be futile. And no... this is the only room feasible for a stereo...

jonwb

dragon1952 wrote: »

As for the placement, I've had great luck with this method
http://www.cardas.com/room_setup_main.php

Forgot to thank you... thanks, interesting page!

steveinaz

Not having the enveloping sound quality you're looking for, sounds like your speakers may be too far apart, creating a "hole" in your center soundstage.

jonwb

Well, I think I found a compromise. Not the best but certainly better than I expected. Thanks to boston1450 for suggesting that I raise the 10s. They're at 24" on those stands and out about 2' from the wall. I've never had them up that high. I had to decrease the bass on the SX-750 because the near-corner placement reinforced the bass frequencies a lot. At quarter volume level, I'm really getting some good fill from these now with a nice stereo representation out into the room. Due to size however, I may have to find some Monitor 7s instead since these have the "look, I'm here" footprint that I know my wife isn't fond of. Either way I'm building some stands... they really helped a lot! Thanks again for all your input.

steveinaz

I would reduce your toe-in to compensate for the limited width between them....just my 2 cents. Maybe just about 15 degrees of toe-in.

westmassguy

steveinaz wrote: »

I would reduce your toe-in to compensate for the limited width between them....just my 2 cents. Maybe just about 15 degrees of toe-in.

My thoughts as well. If the on-axis lines cross before the "Sweet Spot", you'll loose stereo separation, and smear the image.
The early reviews of the Monitor 10 gave them high marks even without any toe-in. The dome tweets have a wide dispersion pattern.

jonwb

steveinaz wrote: »

I would reduce your toe-in to compensate for the limited width between them....just my 2 cents. Maybe just about 15 degrees of toe-in.

westmassguy wrote: »

My thoughts as well. If the on-axis lines cross before the "Sweet Spot", you'll loose stereo separation, and smear the image.
The early reviews of the Monitor 10 gave them high marks even without any toe-in. The dome tweets have a wide dispersion pattern.

Ok I'll do that, thanks. Anything to know concerning speaker stands? Because of their size, my plan is to build some 24" cubes that are the same dimensions (width and depth) as the 10s.

(right now my wife is studying in the dining room, listening to classical music radio on them... I may get to keep these!)

madmax

My room used to be 11.5x23 and I found it hopeless except with the speakers on the long wall. Even at that it was kind of bad because the wall was directly behind my ears and I got reflections from it. When I softened the wall behind me the sound felt too uncomfortable. I never did come to a good conclusion other than moving.

boston1450

The placement of my 10's on stock stands are perfect. BUT i had to put them in another room----i ended up using 7's on stands because 10's were too low with furniture & PLACEMENT was not good in that room i had them in----the 10's seem to be a wonderful speaker. But to me they are fussy & need more accurate placement VS the 7's----the 10's tilted back brings the tweet to a level that seems perfect if placement is set up correct.

---

I ended up playing around A&B'ing them. Moving them here n there. Trying different things. Most that didnt work. Lol. But i enjoyed it----good luck on your journey. Hope you find the sweet spot..Let us know how you make out

boston1450

jonwb wrote: »

Ok I'll do that, thanks. Anything to know concerning speaker stands? Because of their size, my plan is to build some 24" cubes that are the same dimensions (width and depth) as the 10s.

(right now my wife is studying in the dining room, listening to classical music radio on them... I may get to keep these!)

i would stick with stock stands. IMO

steveinaz

With limited space, and that high-backed (thick) couch I agree that taller stands would work better. I've seen some pretty cool DIY stands made from cement block, then spray painted with rock texture type paint, just a thought. With your speakers that far out from the back wall, you could probably spread them more....I'd relocate the receiver and lamp and get your speaks on either side of the fireplace.

boston1450

With stock stands it brings the 10's up to 38in tall- with tilt back (10in stands)

RamZet

I would look into a nice set of in-wall speakers with backs. Place them higher than the mantel. run the wires under the carpet along that brick. the carpet will pull right up with a flathead screwdriver and lay right back down.

you could pull the trim off and make a hole to snake the wire up the wall. OR. hide a small hole plate behind a sub on one side and another behind the amp on the other side.

Cats in the wall preventing you from snaking higher than the fireplace? Well locate the cat in the wall. Cut the speaker hole out above the cat ( 6 inches or so). put a drill in the speaker hole and drill the cat out.

A chair facing the speakers helps too.

dragon1952

RamZet wrote: »

I would look into a nice set of in-wall speakers with backs. Place them higher than the mantel. run the wires under the carpet along that brick. the carpet will pull right up with a flathead screwdriver and lay right back down.

you could pull the trim off and make a hole to snake the wire up the wall. OR. hide a small hole plate behind a sub on one side and another behind the amp on the other side.

Cats in the wall preventing you from snaking higher than the fireplace? Well locate the cat in the wall. Cut the speaker hole out above the cat ( 6 inches or so). put a drill in the speaker hole and drill the cat out.

A chair facing the speakers helps too.

Ha ha....amen to that.

Ricardo

jonwb wrote: »

I brought out my Polk Monitor 5jrs just to see what response I'd get. They're definitely more detailed in the mid and higher ranges

Hmmmm.....are you sure the 10's tweeters are working as they should?

westmassguy

Ricardo wrote: »

Hmmmm.....are you sure the 10's tweeters are working as they should?

Good point. The SL1000 Tweeters were not drop-in replacements for the Peerless. I'm sure Polk did that in good faith, however, my experience is, the crossovers are slightly different. So beside the fact that the SL1000s suck, they may not even be tuned or voiced properly due to crossover differences. In addition, your crossovers are well past their prime, and due for an upgrade.
The 5jrs, if unmodified, most likely have the SL2000 tweeters, which have a nasty resonance peak around 13 KHz, which could be what you're interpreting as more detail vs the SL1000s on the 10s

jonwb

RamZet wrote: »

I would look into a nice set of in-wall speakers with backs.

I thought about this. Are you referring to the Polk RC85i's or other?

jonwb

Ricardo wrote: »

Hmmmm.....are you sure the 10's tweeters are working as they should?

They're working. At the time Polk sent them to me, I remember thinking that something sounded different but I didn't realize different models were being utilized by the company by that time. The crossovers now are definitely in need of an upgrade though. The M5jrs in a raised position don't have any low bass to speak of... just mids and highs, The SL2000 tweeter probably exaggerates that.