Motor City Meltdown... Detroit files for Bankruptcy protection...

tonyb

Iraq, Libya, Egypt, Afghanistan, Syria, and now other African nations in the southern portion of the continent. We have a saying in my business...."US FIRST". Meaning you take care of the company you work for first before extending courtesy to other companies on a job site. I would imagine it also holds water for other businesses in other industries too. Can we not apply that to our nation ? Take care of us first before sending hundreds of billions of our money across the globe. I know....I know....we can't ignore the rest of the planet, but when we are in dire straights, which we are, seems an appropriate course of action to me.

nooshinjohn

tonyb wrote: »

Iraq, Libya, Egypt, Afghanistan, Syria, and now other African nations in the southern portion of the continent. We have a saying in my business...."US FIRST". Meaning you take care of the company you work for first before extending courtesy to other companies on a job site. I would imagine it also holds water for other businesses in other industries too. Can we not apply that to our nation ? Take care of us first before sending hundreds of billions of our money across the globe. I know....I know....we can't ignore the rest of the planet, but when we are in dire straights, which we are, seems an appropriate course of action to me.

Sometimes you need to right your own ship before you can take on more lifeboats.

tonyb

BlueFox wrote: »

What were people saying about that exercise? Something like "If you break you have to pay for it".

Well, then the same should have applied to the auto companies that broke their business model. Or the Banking industry which did the same. They broke it, let them fix it....or surrender it to whoever can.

dudeinaroom

We should start a travel agency that specializes in urban hunting safaris, you can pick from Detroit, Flint, Pontiac, and Saginaw. Be careful in Saginaw, the cops there shoot homeless people, so anyone is fair game for them.

cnh wrote: »

.......Enough of gloom and doom. Something "good" has to be happening "somewhere".

cnh

I should have 20 houses by this time next year. Does that count as good news?

nooshinjohn

dudeinaroom wrote: »

I should have 20 houses by this time next year. Does that count as good news?

I have been thinking of buying a few myself. What is the rental market like at the moment?

tonyb

John,

The rental market is going nuts right now...all time highs for rent. With so many having to rent now because of going under on their homes and foreclosures. Thing is, you have to review your states rental policies and laws. Some states like mine, once they are in there it's hard to get them out if they don't pay. A good friend of mine has 5 rental properties in good neighborhoods, one trashed the house and took 18 months of going to court and legal fee's to get them out. Money to be made for sure, but expect some headaches along the way.

dudeinaroom

nooshinjohn wrote: »

I have been thinking of buying a few myself. What is the rental market like at the moment?

Hell if I know, I guess it depends on the area you live in. And who said anything about buying houses?

tonyb wrote: »

John,

The rental market is going nuts right now...all time highs for rent. With so many having to rent now because of going under on their homes and foreclosures. Thing is, you have to review your states rental policies and laws. Some states like mine, once they are in there it's hard to get them out if they don't pay. A good friend of mine has 5 rental properties in good neighborhoods, one trashed the house and took 18 months of going to court and legal fee's to get them out. Money to be made for sure, but expect some headaches along the way.

Arenac County, MI. is a landlords dream, They have no rental codes, and ignore the state codes.

Jhayman

It's the banks that caused the housing bubble crisis in the first place by giving bad loans to desperate people knowing Full well they would not be able to pay..
And then selling those loans and betting on them to fail, I think it's called Hedging..
Squatters rights I say to any house that was involved in that crisis..
Also US Law is totally different on bankruptcies than Canadian Law..
I feel Sorry for anyone in the US that goes bankrupt because according to what I've read and watched, Documentaries, they take Everything..

nooshinjohn

You have a very narrow view of history my friend...

It was the Housing and Community Development Act of 1992 established an affordable housing loan purchase mandate for Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, and that mandate was to be regulated by HUD. Initially, the 1992 legislation required that 30 percent or more of Fannie’s and Freddie’s loan purchases be related to affordable housing. However, HUD was given the power to set future requirements. In 1995 HUD mandated that 40 percent of Fannie and Freddie’s loan purchases would have to support affordable housing. In 1996, HUD directed Freddie and Fannie to provide at least 42% of their mortgage financing to borrowers with income below the median in their area. This target was increased to 50% in 2000 and 52% in 2005. Under the Bush Administration HUD continued to pressure Fannie and Freddie to increase affordable housing purchases – to as high as 56 percent by the year 2008.To satisfy these mandates, Fannie and Freddie eventually announced low-income and minority loan commitments totaling $5 trillion. Critics argue that, to meet these commitments, Fannie and Freddie promoted a loosening of lending standards - industry-wide.

In a nutshell, banks were forced by the FED to lend money to people (typically low income minority groups) that would otherwise not be able to afford to buy a home. They crafted all kinds of zero down, zero interest for 5 years or more programs, combined with relaxed standards of credit worthiness. Clinton, a Democrat, (and passed by a democratic congress)looks like the hero for having the highest rate of home ownership in history. When the wheels came off this mess in 2007, the administration at that time (republican) looked to everyone like a bunch of idiots.

I saw what was happening as soon as the banks stared telling people they could pay no interest on their loans for the first five years. Here in California, you could gat 750K for 1200 a month for 5 years! The assumption was incomes would rise dramatically and then you could afford the higher payment, which in many cases more than doubled or tripled... If nobody could see that train wreck coming before it even cleared the station, they were idiots. There should be thousands of people in prison right now for this mess. The reason nobody went is because the politicians were every bit as guilty, if not more so than the banks that were forced to comply with regulations that made no sense to begin with.


Study some history my friend, because the truth is out there.

cnh

So let me see. In a nutshell, banks were forced by the FED to lend money to people (typically low income minority groups) that would otherwise not be able to afford to buy a home.

And that ABSOLVES ALL BANKS of ANY responsibility, right? And DERIVATIVES were created because THEY HAD TO BE? Because NO ONE profited, in the short term from them? Right? Seems to me you can offer, even the "poor", loans and not sell them off endlessly to many others so that they turn into a form of OTB.

Personally, I like to SPREAD the responsibility around because I live in a "social" world where "everyone" is responsible.


cnh

nooshinjohn

cnh wrote: »

So let me see. Personally, I like to SPREAD the responsibility around because I live in a "social" world where "everyone" is responsible.


cnh

I guess that makes you responsible for the collapse of Detroit then, or how about for the 100 TRILLION dollars of unfunded liabilities the federal government currently has on the books. Maybe responsible for the murder problem in Chicago too?

We are only responsible to ourselves as individuals and to our families. Sorry, but we are not responsible for anything else. I hate being told I am responsible for the failings of others, and I am tired of being forced to pay for another's mistakes.. yet it happens all the time. I have been told that I am responsible to pay for slavery, despite being born 100 years after the last slave was freed. I have been told I am responsible for caring for the 14 children born to Octomom, even though I never slept with her. I have been told I am killing the earth because a dare to take a breath of air. I have been told my guns, which are locked and secure in my home, are responsible for everything from gang violence to Sandy Hook... Where does it stop?

Beyond having "social skills", I have come to despise that little word...

Social "justice", social "responsibility", social "morality" social whatever are all collectivist notions that are contrary to thousands of years of societal development.

Whatever happened to "equal justice", "personal responsibility" and "personal morals"...

The collectivist mindset is rooted in a belief system that is so far removed and alien to traditional and long standing American ideals of "being endowed by our creator with certain inalienable rights" that the only way to bring this about is to tear down all that is good about us.

CNH, my friend, I do agree however that we are all responsible for not only the mess we are in, but also for fixing it. My point is I just don't care who is responsible anymore. It's long past time to clean house because the rats aint going anywhere unless we flush them out.

I don't give a damn about politics any more. Only the founding documents of the U.S., holding leaders accountable to the principles contained within them, and a firm reliance on Divine Provenance will save us now.

steveinaz

Detroit....hmmm, lemme see: Kick the can down the road long enough, you'll run out of road.

I think that sums up my thoughts on this.

Polkie2009

steveinaz wrote: »

Detroit....hmmm, lemme see: Kick the can down the road long enough, you'll run out of road.

I think that sums up my thoughts on this.

+1, Unfortunately, all those folks who are retired drawing nice pensions or will be retiring in the next number of years, are going to be shook to the core when they get the notice that the money has run out and they'll be getting pennies on the dollar.:eek: It's coming folks, be prepared.

steveinaz

I'm having a tough time feeling bad for them, since most of them (given their occupation)likely voted the party that put them in peril---over and over and over again.

"People get the government they deserve" - Thomas Jefferson

...and you are EXACTLY right, everyone is getting fleeced on this one. Who do you think is getting paid first, Mrs. Applepie, 2nd grade teacher retired OR city councilman Bob Nutjob? Bet I know...

tonyb

Good post John.

CNH,
I don't think John ment that as an absolute dismissal of the banks responsibility in the whole thing. They certainly had a hand in it. You have to admit though, when you follow how banks actually get money, the strings attached dictate behavior. It's easy to point fingers at either side politically, and that's the cycle we are always in, but if you follow the laws written and for what purpose the truth starts to come into focus.

Most laws these days are written not for the sole purpose of solving a perceived problem, but do give that illusion while serving political agenda's and paying off supporters. If congress ever did anything otherwise I might have a heart attack and kick the bucket on the spot.:biggrin:

Look, some basic principles applied, and we all for the most part agree, can easily set us back on track....if the will is there. For instance, we can all agree the tax code needs a do over, yes ? We can eliminate lots of problems and possibly gain more revenue for the treasury. Most Americans want a sealed border with one system of immigration policy that applies to all....and enforced equally. Most can agree the influence of special interests coin on lawmakers does more harm than good. Get rid of it, permanently. Get rid of automatic spending increases built into our nations budget. Automatic increases simply put means automatic tax increases.....and even simpler yet means automatically your spendable income goes down. Keep deficit spending as an option only used in emergency situations, not as a year over year policy.

I could go on but I'll stop there. Just those suggestions alone would go along way in getting things back on course. I realize that's a total 180 of what we have come accustomed to, but it needs to be done if we are to survive. Or....we could do nothing, accept things for what they are and just sit on the sidelines and wait for all that was good about America to disappear.

txcoastal1

Housing bubble---John is correct

A dream house was something you worked hard and saved, or purchased a less modest home or 2 till you had equity and "EARNED" credit. When the mandate came down the golden carrot was waved in front of people with horrible ARM loans etc.

With the general population this looked like a great deal...NOT...with the mentality of "Keeping up with the Jones'" and the famous Price is Right quote "And this can be yours if the price is right"....practically free move in.

Every Tom, Dick, and Harry fell for it hook, line, and sinker.

One of the problem is we are now forced to cinch up our boot straps, conserve and budget, but the Gov't never followed what us civilians have had to endure....they refuse to trim the fat

mrbigbluelight

John, I'd have to disagree with the statement that the Feds "forced" the banks to give out loans to unqualified borrowers.

IMO, it's a question of who's really the boss ?
Does the government tell the banks how the banks will operate ?
Or do the banks tell the government how the banks will operate ?

Sure, the government/banks will put on a 'dog-and-pony' show to make it appear that all parties involved are acting responsibly.
But what really goes on behind the curtain is entirely different.

World Bank/IMF are controlled by whom ? The United States. Awesome, right ?
Well, to be more specific, they are controlled by the Federal Reserve, which is absolutely not so awesome.

Lot of foreclosed homes in Detroit ?
Think the banks will be left "holding the bag" ? Of course not, you know they won't.
The banks will be paid the assessed value of the home.
Doesn't matter if the house sells for $1. "Our" government will pay the bank the difference between the sale price and its assessed value OR whatever monetary exposure the bank has in the house.
Which ever figure is HIGHER, that's what the bank will receive from "our" government.

Guaranteed win for the banks.
It should be mentioned that these 'rules' don't apply to smaller, regional banks that aren't members of the Big Boy Club.
So when these smaller regional banks go into insolvency, they are bought up someone in the Big Boy Club.
THEN the 'special' rules apply. All guaranteed by 'our' government.

So the question would be: who wrote these rules ?
Apparently 'our' government.
Perhaps the more valid question would be: who IS 'our' government ?

schwarcw

Stay tuned, there are many more cities like Detroit in the works. Many US cities large and small are teetering on bankruptcy. Public workers are going to be looking towards the Fed to bail them out. Their Unions will demand your taxpayer dollars be used to fund their generous pensions and healthcare. While you don't have anything close to that level of benefits.

nooshinjohn

mrbigbluelight wrote: »

John, I'd have to disagree with the statement that the Feds "forced" the banks to give out loans to unqualified borrowers.

Perhaps the more valid question would be: who IS 'our' government ?

The department of Housing and Urban Development actually... the Fed just laid the guidelines, and HUD enforced the rules, but I don't really think we disagree on much here. Policies were created that fostered greed, greed gives way to corruption, and it feeds upon the weak at that point until it can consume no more, then the whole thing, just like Enron and Madoff, collapses upon itself until all is destroyed in the fall. The only ones to escape are those with parachutes or plausible deniability.

This is what happens when government, through misguided(at first) or intentional policy decisions, chooses the winners and losers in a free market system. We need to get back to having one set of rules for all to play by or the whole thing fails.

As I said in my previous post, there are thousands that need to in prison for what has happened across the country, politicians and private sector alike, but the will is not there when it means exposing the entire house of cards to public scrutiny, as there is far more than we know going on behind the curtain.

Sometimes I think we have become the land of Oz...

The best question however is. "what have WE allowed our government to become? As has been said before, we get the government we deserve. An immoral and corrupt people are now governed by the immoral and corrupt.

tonyb

The Federal Reserve is a whole other ballgame. Imagine....they answer to nobody.....zip. That's for another bed time story.

John,
While I share your enthusiasm for exposing the rats, who's going to prosecute any of them ? The DOJ ? The same DOJ that deemed it acceptable to investigate.....itself ? The same DOJ that breaks laws, picks and choses which laws to enforce and which not to ?

When you corrupt all branches of the government at the same time....then we have a huge problem. We have never as a nation seen this amount of corruption in our government, in all branches.....ever. You would think that alone would be enough to make some take notice, but it isn't. Nope.....you'd get more reaction out of people if their cell phone went dead. The country....who cares anymore, but cancel a cell phone service or internet and people get their heads out of the sand for that pronto.

It's almost like thinking for yourself has become obsolete. People need or even want someone else to tell them what to think. Isn't that obvious by the rise of so many opinion shows....masquerading as news outlets ? Very telling and very sad imho. You can even tell that in audio, on this forum, by some posts. Some would rather just selectively read internet articles on audio and form a frame of thought over listening to those with actual experience or gaining some experience themselves. Not all mind you, but some anyway. In the audio world, we like to toss around phrases like "critical listening". Which is a learned process. What about "critical thinking"? Which is also a learned process.....a somewhat lost process at that.

To make an audio analogy, we like to tell people here to forego the marketing hype, do some research, check your wallet, and try different things for yourself.....because...."everything matters". Should we not apply the same principles when it comes to solving our issues as a nation ? Think about that.

dudeinaroom

nooshinjohn wrote: »

.......Only the founding documents of the U.S., holding leaders accountable to the principles contained within them,

Right on. You should see the faces of these "officials" when you know your rights and how to exercise them it's funny, they run scared. IT is our government, not we are the governments people. They are public servants, and we are the public, people need to realize this.

nooshinjohn wrote: »

.....will demand your taxpayer dollars ......

I am so tired of hearing people complain about taxes. If you don't want people taking your money then don't give it to them, taxes are voluntary. Before you sign any government document, federal, state, or local, make sure you know about the agreement that is not spelled out in the document, it is all codified under usc, ucc and state codes. Do some research before signing, or sending notices to make sure you can secure your rights.

cnh

While I do not disagree that there is a lot of corruption in Gov't. The question I have is WHY? What is it that facilitates even "produces" corrupt politicians if it is not payoffs and lobbyists and what we might call the power of Capital and its "interests"? That capital gets what "it" wants. And once it has that, it doesn't particularly care if the political boys also play "favors" with spending increases for their "own" purposes and reelection. It's almost a given that a politician's salary/benefits will exceed what they get paid. And then there is the constant NEED to raise campaign monies because, it seems, we don't vote for the BEST person, but for the guy/gal, who can put up the most advertising, press or propaganda, etc. Who can best dupe the electorate.

Kind of makes you wonder about our "system" and our "elections"? We are free to vote for a FIXED field of candidates?

cnh

dudeinaroom

cnh wrote: »

While I do not disagree that there is a lot of corruption in Gov't. The question I have is WHY? What is it that facilitates even "produces" corrupt politicians if it is not payoffs and lobbyists and what we might call the power of Capital and its "interests"? That capital gets what "it" wants. And once it has that, it doesn't particularly care if the political boys also play "favors" with spending increases for their "own" purposes and reelection. It's almost a given that a politician's salary/benefits will exceed what they get paid. And then there is the constant NEED to raise campaign monies because, it seems, we don't vote for the BEST person, but for the guy/gal, who can put up the most advertising, press or propaganda, etc. Who can best dupe the electorate.

Kind of makes you wonder about our "system" and our "elections"? We are free to vote for a FIXED field of candidates?

cnh

We have note truly voted in years, all we do is go cast our opinions, that is why they are called polls and we cast them at polling offices/stations/locations, what have you. The same way we have polls here.

sucks2beme

cnh wrote: »

So let me see. In a nutshell, banks were forced by the FED to lend money to people (typically low income minority groups) that would otherwise not be able to afford to buy a home.

And that ABSOLVES ALL BANKS of ANY responsibility, right? And DERIVATIVES were created because THEY HAD TO BE? Because NO ONE profited, in the short term from them? Right? Seems to me you can offer, even the "poor", loans and not sell them off endlessly to many others so that they turn into a form of OTB.

Personally, I like to SPREAD the responsibility around because I live in a "social" world where "everyone" is responsible.


cnh

Reality was, it was more a middle class thing that caused all the problems. A place called Countrywide
discovered sub-prime lending could net big bucks. A lot of middle class people with good incomes
had credit problems. Big credit problems. And those big spenders were willing to pay some pretty steep rates
to buy homes. Countrywide then bundled them up and sold the loans to investors. And somehow they got
them rated as AAA (scam city). A lot of other lenders followed them with their own versions.
Even today a lot of car buyers out there shouldn't be getting loans. I wouldn't let them borrow $5.
Yet they trade in cars $5k under water and buy new cars. WTF?

tonyb

cnh wrote: »

Kind of makes you wonder about our "system" and our "elections"? We are free to vote for a FIXED field of candidates?

cnh

Doesn't make me wonder my friend. I've always known the fix is in from the git go, or at least very heavy handed one way or the other. After all it's not the citizen's vote that counts, it's who counts those votes. Even that process of who counts is suspect. Add to that the fight you have to be in to get any sort of voter I.D. laws passed and it certainly makes you wonder about just how legit is the vote. Tie that in with immigration/amnesty and you have a good enough picture of who's serving who's interest.

Maybe that's the plan, I dunno, to make everything so convoluted you have to scrap everything and start over. Many would like to see that happen, and it becomes more evident as time goes on that it may well be the case.

gudnoyez

Perhaps Uncle Ted should reunite with Dereck St Holmes, Tour donate the money earned to Detroit. They could call it the Motor City Meltdown tour. Get it, Motor City Madhouse ( Meltdown ). Bad Idea I doubt the Nuge could sell out any arenas nowadays, never mind. There is no hope.

tonyb

Nah man, forget Ted. We need to film an episode of one of those survival shows there.....preferably the naked one.:cheesygrin:

Drop them in the middle of the crappy part, no clothes, no food/water, and only a few ounces of good weed. I'd watch....

nooshinjohn

LMAO Mike.. I was just going to post that!

tonyb

Here's a thought. Rent the city out to the military for training exercises, let them blow sh&t up. Detroit would collect some revenue and save money on demolition. After the military blows up the city, they'll rebuild it on the governments dime. Why not ? We do it everywhere else around the globe, why not here ?

Or just sell the whole city to the military and let them do as they wish. Personally, I'd drop a bomb on the place, make the hole big enough so that the lake waters just come in and cover the whole city. Throw some sand around the edges, done. Instant beautification, plus you can charge money for diving expeditions.....glass bottom boat tours. Have a resort out in the middle, hire some Jamaicans and Jimmy Buffet to set up entertainment and we might even entice our Canadian friends to come down and visit. How's that for thinking outside the box.

dudeinaroom

tonyb wrote: »

Drop them in the middle of the crappy part, no clothes, no food/water, and only a few ounces of good weed. I'd watch....

Dude...no one would make it through the first day with nowhere to hide the weed.

tonyb wrote: »

.......rebuild it on the governments dime.

Every thing is should be on the governments dime. It is illegal to pay debts with Federal reserve notes. A note is a debt, and you can not pay a debt with a debt. If I can find the act that FDR put in place that made it illegal I will post it.