Motor City Meltdown... Detroit files for Bankruptcy protection...

Polkie2009

Lol, I don't know, Ted may feel safer on his spread down here near Crawford.:cheesygrin:

nooshinjohn

BlueFox wrote: »

Sounds like just the place for Ted Nugent.

Seriously???:rolleyes:

I have a lot of respect for Ted. He tells the truth, calls it like he sees it and makes no apologies for it. I think he has more integrity in his pinkie finger than all the leadership Detroit has had for the past 50 years. I think Ted and Mitt Romney could actually fix Detroit, but sadly that ship has long since sailed away.

Getting Detroit going again is going to require wiping every vestige of the old away and starting from scratch at this point.

nooshinjohn

Sad thing is fixing the Big D could be accomplished rather easily and in relatively short order, so long as people stood together and made it happen. I am certain the Auto industry would be quick to come back if the city did away with about 90% of the taxes and regulation that drove them out to begin with. The city also has entire neighborhoods filled with homes just ready to be reclaimed... the city should give them away for free to well qualified owner occupants, provided they fix them up and open businesses in their communities.

This would be a great opportunity for a city to fully embrace our founding principles and start over. I am willing to put money of Detroit being able to turn things around in ten short years if they paid more attention to the history of Benjamin Franklin than that of Karl Marx.

BlueFox

nooshinjohn wrote: »

Seriously???:rolleyes:

Yes. Seriously. After all, he is the Motor City Madman, and he loves to hunt.

obieone

There are 'things' more dangerous than NUCLEAR weapons!

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/chat/2349112/posts

nooshinjohn

Abandoned Detroit...

http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=abandoned+detroit&id=A33E04257BCCD735A5ABD0C24886FABF59028E88&FORM=IQFRBA#a

Phasewolf

What people don't get is the people of Detroit seem to like it how it is. Anytime someone wants to fix things and tells people they need to get a job and do things like pay there taxes they get voted out.

They voted in the city counsel who blocks anything that could help.

Polkersince85

nooshinjohn wrote: »

So THAT"S how they cane to the decision to sell the Isle of Manhattan for 20 bucks worth of baubles and trinkets... worked out well, didn't it?:rolleyes::cheesygrin::cool:

Look at what they would have to deal with today. Good move.

devani

yup, the american pride and heart of america

tonyb

Phasewolf wrote: »

What people don't get is the people of Detroit seem to like it how it is. Anytime someone wants to fix things and tells people they need to get a job and do things like pay there taxes they get voted out.

They voted in the city counsel who blocks anything that could help.

Well now that's the crux of many problems. Some how generations were taught that they were "entitled" to something's and never had to "pay" for anything. No expectations, no hard work required. When you break it all down, isn't that the basis of many problems we face as a nation/state ?

People will vote for those that give them something for nothing and against those who will take away what they have grown accustomed to receiving for nothing.....or expecting some sort of effort in return. You see that scenario playing out to the extreme in Europe and we aren't far behind.

fossy

I vote for Ted to get out of that hopeless city and move to Austin Tx !!!!!!!! we got a great white bungalow for ya !!!

a lot of cities are going through this ... Florida is among the worst .... god save the big D ....

tonyb

fossy wrote: »

.... god save the big D ....

LOL !!

I'm afraid even "God" has said...."screw it...you can have it."

cstmar01

nooshinjohn wrote: »

The city also has entire neighborhoods filled with homes just ready to be reclaimed... the city should give them away for free to well qualified owner occupants, provided they fix them up and open businesses in their communities.

This would be a great opportunity for a city to fully embrace our founding principles and start over. I am willing to put money of Detroit being able to turn things around in ten short years if they paid more attention to the history of Benjamin Franklin than that of Karl Marx.

Um OK. First who is going to regulate it? You hate big gov so how do you expect that to happen. Better yet, who is going to lend them money to open the business. How will they even know how to run it. Education plays a big role in that, not something that Detriot is known for.

Second, have you seriously seen these homes? I mean really? I was there about a year ago in the summer. The homes were nothing I would ever consider rehab quality and would need to be torn down completely (similar to E. St Louis area). You can't fix something too far gone until it becomes a bigger mess than what you have. Several nice areas are gone.

Third, I don't see Detroit being a Marx inspired community. Not to many that are fighting against the man unless you count all those in gangs etc. Please leave references like this out of convos, it has no place and there is no truth behind it.

nooshinjohn

In regards to your second point, I have also been there. While I agree there are some places that should be completely removed from the map. There are others however, that are worthy of being saved, and should be. Strip away 90% of the undue and over the top regulation and far less money would be needed to do business in Detroit. You would also need half as much government to administer it, allowing the city to free up funds for more and better policing of the city.

To your third point... Read the stated goals of the communist party, and compare those goals with modern day Detroit. It was Kruschev that stated something to the effect of "we will spoon feed socialism to you until one day you will wake up to realize capitalism has been replaced with communism."

Detroit looks an awful lot like old East Berlin if you ask me

sucks2beme

If there aren't any jobs, what good is any of it going to be?
That's why Detroit's population is dropping. And those left are too poor to move
and don't have any marketable skills. Once again, manufacturing creates jobs
for all classes, skilled, unskilled, and white collar. Off-shoring all of it means
a lot less jobs. At some point, even having a good education becomes useless
if there aren't enough good jobs to go around. Being unskilled and unemployed
and having a masters degree and being unemployed are both bad. Having
a big student loan and being unemployed perhaps is a bit worse.
I see all sorts of 20 somethings around me that can't seem to get a job
with a 4 year degree. OR they are struggling by with a minimum wage job.
My son couldn't even get a callback from anywhere because he was overqualified
to work those jobs. HE finally managed to get in somewhere as a temp for a year and got
hired full time. And the wage he was offered wasn't that great.
Keep in mind the job market in Dallas is about 100 times better than Detroit.

GospelTruth

cstmar01 wrote: »

Um OK. First who is going to regulate it? You hate big gov so how do you expect that to happen. Better yet, who is going to lend them money to open the business. How will they even know how to run it. Education plays a big role in that, not something that Detriot is known for.

Second, have you seriously seen these homes? I mean really? I was there about a year ago in the summer. The homes were nothing I would ever consider rehab quality and would need to be torn down completely (similar to E. St Louis area). You can't fix something too far gone until it becomes a bigger mess than what you have. Several nice areas are gone.

Third, I don't see Detroit being a Marx inspired community. Not to many that are fighting against the man unless you count all those in gangs etc. Please leave references like this out of convos, it has no place and there is no truth behind it.

If Detroit wants to bounce back, they are going to have to get people to want to move back into the city. I think it's hard to do that when you live in the suburbs and see the crime statistics and tax burden (city income tax, high property taxes). Additionally, the Detroit school system is a joke. No one is going to want to move their family into a city with high crime and poor schools. If you don't address those issues, then you are fighting a losing battle to get people to move into a city.

If you start addressing the schools and the crime, then give incentives for people to move into the city. Give away abandoned homes (and there are plenty that can still be fixed back to their glory days - it's not total destruction as you claim). To do that you would need to qualify to be able to fix up the home to a certain standard in X number of years. Cities have done projects like these in their historical districts to get people to move into the city and rehab beautiful old homes that were pretty much gone. You may think that giving away homes is a bad idea, but if no one is there, then there is no tax revenue. Just getting people there increases tax revenue via property taxes and income taxes. Heck, even if you give property tax breaks for 3 years, it's still better than nothing.

Once you get people moving back into the city, then businesses follow. Not everyone that moves to the city is going to start a business, but businesses will definitely move in once they see their is a profit to be made.

All that stuff takes time - and it could be done in 10 years if done right.

The problem I've always seen when living in the Detroit metro area, is that the leaders in Detroit always looked out for themselves and never wanted to work as a community to make things better. They may have said they wanted things better, but it's not hard to see that greed took over in most cases. And no one wants to change the status quo. They keep doing the same things over and over hoping for a different result. I believe that is the definition of insanity.

Here is one example of people trying to make Detroit better, but politics and selfishness getting in the way.
Detroit School Establishment Turns Away $200 million Gift

I wish Detroit could make a turn around. Hopefully they can, but the leaders will need to have a different mindset and actually care about the city, challenge it's residents to be better, and set high expectations on what the city can be. As I see it, there is currently no vision for Detroit to be great again other than by the car companies.

ohskigod

polrbehr wrote: »

It gets worse. I was told by customer service yesterday that the delays have been caused by a "new subcontractor" they used this year (uh, OK), and that I should call them back (and spend 1/2 hour trying to get a live person) in 6 - 8 weeks (from now??) if I don't receive it by then. Yup, he said September.
And while I did not file electronically, the refund should be direct deposited, so that should take potential USPS error out of the equation.
Good thing we are not talking about a huge amount of money here : (

yeah, your gonna wanna start electronically filing. thats all i can say

cnh

sucks2beme wrote: »

If there aren't any jobs, what good is any of it going to be?
That's why Detroit's population is dropping. And those left are too poor to move
and don't have any marketable skills. Once again, manufacturing creates jobs
for all classes, skilled, unskilled, and white collar. Off-shoring all of it means
a lot less jobs. At some point, even having a good education becomes useless
if there aren't enough good jobs to go around. Being unskilled and unemployed
and having a masters degree and being unemployed are both bad. Having
a big student loan and being unemployed perhaps is a bit worse.
I see all sorts of 20 somethings around me that can't seem to get a job
with a 4 year degree. OR they are struggling by with a minimum wage job.
My son couldn't even get a callback from anywhere because he was overqualified
to work those jobs. HE finally managed to get in somewhere as a temp for a year and got
hired full time. And the wage he was offered wasn't that great.
Keep in mind the job market in Dallas is about 100 times better than Detroit.

BINGO! I don't "care" what your "politics" are, this is the REALITY. You can continue to believe in some Pollyanna fantasy where the "market" self-corrects this but that's not going to "happen". Global Economic forces don't give a S$%% about any particular Nation State, even the U.S. And deregulating Detroit to the point where we can import 1 dollar a day workers from Vietnam to live in a SPLENDID ghetto squalor is not going to happen!

One has to wonder where people get their info. Or why they can't let go of "old failed ideas" when surrounded by COUNTLESS examples (even lives) of their inadequacy. It's the 21st century boys, not the 19th! That old "free market" vs "socialism" stuff may have flown up to the '80s, but it's OVER! IN this century it is nothing but "rhetoric", there is no "substance" to it.

Reality is FAR too COMPLEX for such a simpleminded dualistic rendering!

cnh

devani

Sell Detroit to china.....

nooshinjohn

cnh wrote: »

BINGO! I don't "care" what your "politics" are, this is the REALITY. You can continue to believe in some Pollyanna fantasy where the "market" self-corrects this but that's not going to "happen". Global Economic forces don't give a S$%% about any particular Nation State, even the U.S. And deregulating Detroit to the point where we can import 1 dollar a day workers from Vietnam to live in a SPLENDID ghetto squalor is not going to happen!

One has to wonder where people get their info. Or why they can't let go of "old failed ideas" when surrounded by COUNTLESS examples (even lives) of their inadequacy. It's the 21st century boys, not the 19th! That old "free market" vs "socialism" stuff may have flown up to the '80s, but it's OVER! IN this century it is nothing but "rhetoric", there is no "substance" to it.

Reality is FAR too COMPLEX for such a simpleminded dualistic rendering!

cnh

It really can be just that simple cnh...

Take a look at the history of economic downturn in this country, going back the the 1910's... The government had placed such demands on businesses, through taxation, regulation and cronyism,(sound familiar?) that we actually entered a downturn that was bigger than what became known as the "Great Depression". Calvin Coolidge, in response to runaway growth, drastically slashed the size and scope of government. The result was known as the "Roaring 20's".

When faced with the stock market collapse of 1929, Herbert Hoover's response was to clamp down hard on the markets, and raise taxes significantly. These actions precipitated the beginnings of the Great Depression. The exponential growth of government spending and new programs designed to help did nothing to improve things, and in most cases, made the depression last far longer that comparable scenarios that played out around much of the industrialized world. It would take America being dragged into the Second World War to reverse the downward spiral. A strong, provable case could be made that Detroit has been following the same failed actions taken in the 1930's since the downturn of 1961, and has been in a state of continued depression ever since. Incidentally, to get us out of the Recession of '61, the President Kennedy actually CUT taxes, and relaxed regulation. He also introduced the "U.S. Bank Note" as a first step towards replacing the Federal Reserve.

During WWII, wages and prices were frozen, so in order to attract the skilled workers needed to equip the "Arsenal of Democracy" with the weapons needed to win the war, Detroit led the way with paid medical insurance, pensions and other benefits that unions would fight to secure for their unskilled and assembly workers. (It is demonstrably true that it is these unfunded liabilities that lay at the heart of Detroit's current problems, just as they do for thousands of other municipalities across the nation) By 1960, the people of Detroit had the highest income and highest standard of living of any city on the GLOBE... They were that "shining city on the hill" that was seen as the hope of the world. They had the BEST of everything.

Then greed set in, and with it, nearly 50 years of one party rule, union power grabs and extortion of business. The auto manufacturers had MILLIONS of square feet of manufacturing space that was old and in need of replacement or repair. Packard and Studebaker, being the two oldest on the block. even joined forces to trim costs, but to no avail. They were forced out of business under crippling labor costs and product lines they could not modernize for the same reasons.

The Big Three, took note, and tried for another decade to work things through before shuttering assembly plants and taking them first to Canada, then Mexico, and partnering with foreign manufacturers to build cars for them instead. I live not far from the old Van Nuys assembly plant where for 70 years they build GM cars, ending production of Camaro and Firebirds in 1992. The UAW refused to negotiate a better contract that would have kept cars being built in Los Angeles, and the city also forced their hand through AQMD mandates. They moved operations to Canada in 1993. This same scenario played out at plant after plant across Michigan and the upper Midwest.

If the Big Three did things the way the Reagan administration did with air traffic controllers in 1983, Detroit would not be where they are now.(speculation on my part, but rooted in fact)

The problems of Detroit, we could argue about until the Second Coming, but the truth is that the Free Market has been, when allowed to operate free of onerous government regulation and outrageous union demands, has been the very best weapon against poverty, oppression and a guarantor of a well educated, diverse and prosperous society.

nooshinjohn

I mentioned Packard in my previous post for a reason, They were regarded as the finest car America had to offer, in fact for a time they were likely the best in the world. It was one of the goals of a KGB program to destroy American manufacturing capability and fall of the Packard Motor Company was considered essential to achieving those goals. They used unions to do so. The car in the picture is NOT a Packard, which was headquartered in Detroit, and built every car they could there. It is a Russian-made Zil...

tonyb

devani wrote: »

Sell Detroit to china.....

Best idea yet...I like it. :biggrin:

Free markets isn't some failed idea of last century but it also isn't a cure all for every frickin' problem either. You can't just say free markets or too much regulations is the cause of our woes. We have a combination of soo many things it's hard to put your finger on any one such source as the culprit. One things for sure though, all that appears to be the culprits originates in the same place, Washington.

Detroit has many issues going on at the same time. That aside, you still can't spend more money than you take in. This is 3rd grade math that these Ivy League geniuses can't comprehend or simply don't care. If Detroit could print it's own money, then we'd have a mini United States government represented there....but they can't. Neither can you or I which is why we live within our budgets or try to anyway. Deficit spending should be for emergencies, not everyday living and budgets.

What was promised to the government employees in pension and HC benefits should have never taken place. That's the Ponzi scheme of Union pension plans. You need to keep a steady flow of new due paying employees to pay for those retiring. When more start to retire than are being hired....there's going to be a problem. That's why union reps are always pounding the pavement to get some business to convert their employees to a union shop. The sticky thing is that sooner or later a lot of people will get the shaft. There's a slight difference between public and private sector unions but they all work off the same basic principles. That too is why government keeps growing and it's almost impossible to get fired. They need that steady flow of new due paying employee's.

Detroit will no doubt be offered a band-aide solution, only to kick that can down the road until the next financial crisis. Deal with the real issues with no pre-conceived notions of who should get what or are entitled to what. A clean sheet of paper to start with so to speak.

nooshinjohn

An economy based in manufacturing and the sale of those goods on a global scale is what builds wealth and a strong middle class. taking an order for a venti double cappuccino frappe with whipped cream does not.

We need to build things again, and soon. Offer the Big Three welcome home packages, allow business to repatriate capital from foreign operations with little or no taxation for the foreseeable future, so long as that capital creates jobs and companies are operating like Subaru Indiana Automotive(SIA is the most environmentally responsible assembly plant in the US, and pays workers 30 bucks an hour to boot without a union) and Detroit may be able to come back.

Sadly, I doubt it will happen. Things that make sense these days get scrapped before they ever get a hearing, much less tried.

Systems

venti double cappuccino frappe with whipped cream

WTH is that? Some sort of coffee?:redface:

nooshinjohn

pepster wrote: »

WTH is that? Some sort of coffee?:redface:

LOL.. yes. I went to Starbucks for the wife and one of the RHoBH types in front of me ordered that. I had the same reaction you did.

tonyb

nooshinjohn wrote: »

An economy based in manufacturing and the sale of those goods on a global scale is what builds wealth and a strong middle class. taking an order for a venti double cappuccino frappe with whipped cream does not.
Things that make sense these days get scrapped before they ever get a hearing, much less tried.

Amen to that bro, all the special interest will nix any sort of change that doesn't benefit them directly. Thing is, with so many different special interest groups now, you can't do anything but sit still without creating a protest by someone.

Your Starbucks analogy is pretty good. Part time jobs that don't really create anything, much like the fast food sector. Unfortunately these part time minimum wage jobs take up a good percentage of whats available. Then people complain they can't pay the mortgage/rent and raise a family on a minimum wage job. Well duh...

So we keep asking ourselves where have all the good jobs gone ? Maybe the more appropriate question is, where have all the good jobs gone for unskilled/uneducated labor ? We can lay some of that at the feet of a lost manufacturing base, but it's not coming back John, we have to accept that. We simply can not compete with slave wages other countries pay, not going to happen. We can't compete with lax regulatory policy of other nations either, not going to happen here. The unskilled/uneducated labor pool is now stuck in minimum wage jobs or they have to re-educate themselves for todays world. The only way to bring manufacturing back here is to become isolationists, and that too isn't going to happen. Then you say tax all those goods coming back in the door to not make it so attractive to take business overseas. Fine idea, but will set off a trade war with other countries taxing our goods going in their door. Has to be a middle ground, a slightly higher tax, gradual and maybe some will be able to read the writing on the wall and move back here. Back here though, all you here is corporations are bad, not paying their "fair share". Not exactly a welcome matt is it.

Lots of things need to change, but like everything you need to set some goals, what exactly is it you want to accomplish. The answers would be fairly easy, the reactions from special interest won't be....and that's why we need a separation there because otherwise nothing gets done.

cnh

tonyb wrote: »

Amen to that bro, all the special interest will nix any sort of change that doesn't benefit them directly. Thing is, with so many different special interest groups now, you can't do anything but sit still without creating a protest by someone.

Your Starbucks analogy is pretty good. Part time jobs that don't really create anything, much like the fast food sector. Unfortunately these part time minimum wage jobs take up a good percentage of whats available. Then people complain they can't pay the mortgage/rent and raise a family on a minimum wage job. Well duh...

So we keep asking ourselves where have all the good jobs gone ? Maybe the more appropriate question is, where have all the good jobs gone for unskilled/uneducated labor ? We can lay some of that at the feet of a lost manufacturing base, but it's not coming back John, we have to accept that. We simply can not compete with slave wages other countries pay, not going to happen. We can't compete with lax regulatory policy of other nations either, not going to happen here. The unskilled/uneducated labor pool is now stuck in minimum wage jobs or they have to re-educate themselves for todays world. The only way to bring manufacturing back here is to become isolationists, and that too isn't going to happen. Then you say tax all those goods coming back in the door to not make it so attractive to take business overseas. Fine idea, but will set off a trade war with other countries taxing our goods going in their door. Has to be a middle ground, a slightly higher tax, gradual and maybe some will be able to read the writing on the wall and move back here. Back here though, all you here is corporations are bad, not paying their "fair share". Not exactly a welcome matt is it.

Lots of things need to change, but like everything you need to set some goals, what exactly is it you want to accomplish. The answers would be fairly easy, the reactions from special interest won't be....and that's why we need a separation there because otherwise nothing gets done.

And this is why it is NOT so SIMPLE or two-sided. You just can't solve the problems at the NATIONAL level. You don't control or even understand how Global markets work. They don't care about your state nor do they operate on a field of competitive relations where "everyone" stands as an EQUAL competitor to everyone else and the BEST wins. That is PURE fantasy. Corps. stretch their tentacles to draw capital, resources and labor from wherever is most profitable for whatever time period that advantage exists, then can MOVE to the next spot. Production is small batch production with infinite mobility. You can't anchor anything, it is absolutely free and has no MORAL obligation to anyone or any NATION! Morality, ethics, responsibility is not a free market idea; it is anathema to its operations yet it is necessary for human and humane "social relations" and that is why the history of the market is the history of its CONTINUAL confrontation with "regulatory" bodies. Because it is always trying to do things that are both good and also "bad" for people. It doesn't understand or care about the moral consequences of its actions.

But some here will "never" understand this because they don't think in social or structural terms but in "individual" terms. Atomic marbles bumping into each other and fashioning an economy from the outcomes! How can anything but CHAOS come from that? Or rather the BOOM and BUST that is now the TRUE rhythm of the market?

He waves his hands and retires, like Nietzsche's madman he has come too "early" and no one can hear him let alone understand him as they continue to speak over him to each other. lol

cnh

tonyb

Boom and bust have always been the lay of the land pal. Trying to catch the boom and get out before the bust. None of which I believe to be free market related but more so planned by men of certain means. I don't even know if we can say we actually have a free market anymore really. It's become so convoluted you can't see a defined definition anymore.....and that too is the problem with other area's too.

Corporations only do what is allowed of them.....so says one side. The other side says limit what they are allowed to do then. That's a slippery slope when taken too far which we have tendency's to do. Too much regulation/taxes, corporations will move, too little and they take advantage without any real benefits to the labor pool. At the center of it all is greed.....but you will never erase that or be able to legislate it away. Even a middle ground as some would also suggest, puts us still at an uncompetitive posture against other nations. Whats the solution ?

In my view, the solution is to bring other nations up to our level, socially, economically. When people of other nations start to demand more from their leaders, such as better working conditions, housing conditions, sustainable food and water services, education.....they will be forced to charge more for their products they export to us. Some call that nation building, which we shouldn't partake in. I say we should, but also keep our noses out of other nations business. Now the flip side to that is, instead of bringing other nations up, bring ours down to their levels. Not too appealing is it ? Yet you can argue that is in fact what's happening in our country today and has been for decades.

When you look at stats, and I know stats don't tell a complete picture too, education has not improved in 40 years, wages are stagnant and have gone nowhere in at least 20 years. Poverty has not gone down in spite of the billions we throw at it year after year.....in fact it has gone up. Should this not be of major concern as a nation ? Who's tackling these problems....anyone ? Nope, they spend our money on social issues instead, rile up people....divide them.

The next obvious question then becomes one of motive. Who is doing what for what reason. It all becomes very apparent those motives are all self serving and agenda filled with some even designed to bring us down into the mud with the rest of the world. Why.....when we worked so hard to be where we are at, should we subscribe to such craziness ?

If Detroit is to serve as an example, should we not run from such policies they have had in place ? Or copy them and commit to the same outcome ? These are just common sense questions most Americans should be asking themselves. Turn the spin meisters off the tube and think for yourselves.

Strong Bad

We have far more important issues than taking care of Detroit...

http://2001-2009.state.gov/p/nea/rls/rpt/60857.htm

BlueFox

Strong Bad wrote: »

We have far more important issues than taking care of Detroit...

http://2001-2009.state.gov/p/nea/rls/rpt/60857.htm

What were people saying about that exercise? Something like "If you break you have to pay for it".