Cable Elevators

F1nut

Enough of you, welcome to my BOZO list. :rolleyes:

headrott

teekay0007 wrote: »

I've found in situations like this that there's a direct correlation between the price paid for the cable elevators and the sound quality improvement realized from your system, especially to the buyer/owner of said system. Apparently, it doesn't matter what they're made of, how big they are, their color or how much they weigh; just how much is spent on them. So, the lesson to be taken from this is to spend on them like a madman. It's been presented to me, time and time again, that to get really good sound improvements from your cable elevators, the minimum spending threshold on a set that must be met is right around $300. Reeeeeallllllly good sound can be found at about the $600 price point.

Riiiiight.....you think we're delusiional, we get it. Next.

headrott

teekay0007 wrote: »

Ooh, that's kind of taking a(n) (unnecessary?) chance there, seeing as how you'll be substantially below the $300 threshold to get a really good sound quality improvement.

I'll keep an eye out for your blinded-evaluator study test results.

http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?104973-A-Historical-Overview-of-Stereophonic-Blind-Testing

teekay0007

Yes, headrott, I'm well aware of how you and several others around here are afraid of blind-evaluator testing. Afterall, disallowing it lets you justify, at least to yourself, some of the purchases you've made. More power to you. Statements like the following, by one of your idols in a thread a while back, are all I need to tell me that anything less than an evaluator-blinded study is just not going to cut it to demonstrate the merits of something like cable elevators in improving the sound quality of any given system.

F1nut: I don't believe in blind testing as they are notoriously misleading. Do you really think a SS receiver sounds the same as a pair of OTL tube mono blocks? That was the actual result of a blind test and clearly demonstrates that blind testing for audio is completely worthless.

Yes, if you don't like the results obtained, don't believe them and simply denounce the study method used.

Oh, and yes, this is just my humble opinion. If anyone wants to invest in cable elevators, then by all means they should go right ahead. It's their money. If they also believe that their being able to see the cable elevators - or the absence of them - while listening to their system is the only way they can get a proper assessment of how the cable elevators affect their system's SQ, then again, they should go for it and knock themselves out and feel good about their unbiased assessment.

headrott

teekay0007 wrote: »

Yes, headrott, I'm well aware of how you and several others around here are afraid of blind-evaluator testing.

Incorrect, we are not afraid of blind tests, it is just not logical to use a test that was never intended to be used for stereophonic audio to evaluate stereophonic audio. Did you read the thread I posted in the link above?

teekay0007 wrote: »

Afterall, disallowing it lets you justify, at least to yourself, some of the purchases you've made. More power to you.

The only justification I need for audio purchases I've made is what I am hearing as a result of the purchase and install into the system. It is you and fellow "non-believers" that don't believe what they are hearing is accurate.

teekay0007 wrote: »

Statements like the following, by one of your idols in a thread a while back, are all I need to tell me that anything less than an evaluator-blinded study is just not going to cut it to demonstrate the merits of something like cable elevators in improving the sound quality of any given system.

F1nut: I don't believe in blind testing as they are notoriously misleading. Do you really think a SS receiver sounds the same as a pair of OTL tube mono blocks? That was the actual result of a blind test and clearly demonstrates that blind testing for audio is completely worthless.

Yes, if you don't like the results obtained, don't believe them and simply denounce the study method used.

First, I do not "idolize" Jesse, however I do definately respect his opinions and knowledge.

Second, please read the thread that Ray started regarding blind tests and the multiple reasons that blind tests were never intended for evaluating stereophonic audio, andthe reasons blind tests should definately not be used for such evaluation. One does not need to denounce a study method that was never intended to be used for what is being studied and furthermore should not be used for the study in question. Please read the thread.

F1nut

Where's that Monk guy to report the BOZO for thread crapping when you need him?

teekay0007

headrott, I've read the thread. It's good gospel for you - believe it, live it.

Me, however, I have enough sense to know that I can trust my own hearing when I'm listening to my system to be able to evaluate it fairly whether there's a sheet over my cables or not. If I can't blindly tell what I'm enjoying listening to more, then obviously the change didn't make a worthwhile difference. For me that is, of course. If you need to see that your cable elevators, cables, etc. are, in fact, in use for you to be able to tell if the change in your setup actually made a difference, then by all means, knock yourself out with it.

And no, I don't have the time, energy, or inclination to go through special training to be able to overcome any visual bias I may otherwise be engulfed by while listening to any system while I can see the equipment that is in use. I think the "sheet method" is much easier, accurate and readily reproducible. JMHO, of course.

headrott

F1nut wrote: »

Where's that Monk guy to report the BOZO for thread crapping when you need him?

Sorry Jesse. I guess I should stop "feeding the crappers", huh? LOL!:razz: I will stop the inspiration to keep crapping in your thread Jesse. Sorry for the derail. Back to cable lifters. I am interested in the results as I do not own any nor have I used any yet. Interested in experimenting though.

F1nut

You know Greg, the real problem with the thread crapping BOZO's comments? No one here advocated the use of expensive cable elevators, rather the opposite. Heck, I'm using Styrofoam cups, which cost me nothing and I heard a difference. Makes the thread crapping BOZO's position completely untenable.

teekay0007

F1nut wrote: »

Heck, I'm using Styrofoam cups, which cost me nothing and I heard a difference.

Just pullin' your chain, F1 (sort of, anyway) :cheesygrin:

I look forward to reading your blind-evaluator study results. Or can you only hear a difference if you can see the styrofoam cups? :razz:

steveinaz

Again---this is one of those tweaks that certainly won't harm anything--and at least the static reduction claims seem plausible. At any rate, my porcelain elevators were cheap, make me feel pretty cool, and I was bored--so I bought them; because I can.

Teekay, I don't walk around my sound system with a lab coat and blindfold on...it just kills the excitement of a hobby to always dissect everything you have going into it; relax, enjoy and don't feel like you have to prove to yourself that everything is making a scientifically proven difference, k?

EndersShadow

Teekay, honestly if you keep baiting members here to get into arguments with your seriously sarcastic responses I will continue to report you for harassment. Its interesting to note the discussion was very civil until you stuck your head into it. That seems to be a constant trend with you. I am tired of it.

You are welcome to post your opinion however you tend to phrase it in a confrontational way and TBH members have recently had 7 day bans passed out for less.

So please keep it civil and I have reported your posts for harassment because I am tired of folks coming in and taking a civil conversation and making it into an argument when it doesnt need to be one.

steveinaz

^Exactly, why come into a conversation, knowing you don't agree with the topic?

BlueFox

F1nut wrote: »

Where's that Monk guy to report the BOZO for thread crapping when you need him?

They are two peas in a pod.

teekay0007

F1nut wrote: »

This is one of those tweaks that I've never been too sure about.

My research into cable elevators found that the material choices are ceramic, wood, acrylic and various foam based products. Styles are all over the place as is the cost.

Still being somewhat skeptical...

I'm interesting in knowing if anyone else here is using cable elevators and if so, which ones and what has been your experience with them?

Thread crapping? I think not.

Post #1, F1nut came out saying he was skeptical about this tweak himself and invited others to chime in with their experiences, which is exactly what I did. Honestly, the only people I know that think cable elevators make any sonic difference are those who spent a bundle on them. And yes, the more they spent, the more they've tended to insist that they make a significant difference. And no, I've never seen anyone able to tell that they were in use unless they could see them in use.

I didn't know that input to "discussions" here was only allowed if they were in line with others' beliefs. Kind of defeats the whole idea of a discussion now, doesn't it?

Further, I greatly respect F1's knowledge - he knows more about good audio than I'll ever dream of knowing - and appreciate his input on this forum, but by your definition of thread crapping and harassment (ie. name calling - "BOZO"), EndersShadow, there's no bigger offender here, IMHO, than F1 that I've seen. I, myself, have grown to get a kick out of his way of expressing himself. It doesn't bother me in the slightest, but I can also see - and have seen - where it offends others. Yet, he seems to get a pass around here.

I guess maybe I should have just asked where the box is that I am to check that's next to "I feel cable elevators make no sonic improvement", rather than to elaborate on it. If such a box exists, someone please check that one for me. Heck, I'm still looking for the "I'd just scrap my old 1080i $300 TV and buy a new, thin one, rather than add a $1000 power cord and seven shower curtain stabilizing rods to my old one" box. I'd check that box too.

steveinaz

I believe Jesse asked the opinon of those who have/do use cable elevators---he wasn't looking for an editorial on how they are a waste of time and money. That's where the disconnect lies, I believe. As I have stated, I haven't noticed anything--BUT my system is already extremely quiet, and my hearing lately hardly qualifies for detecting subtleties that this sort of tweak may bring.

teekay0007

steveinaz wrote: »

I believe Jesse asked the opinon of those who have/do use cable elevators---he wasn't looking for an editorial on how they are a waste of time and money. That's where the disconnect lies, I believe. As I have stated, I haven't noticed anything--BUT my system is already extremely quiet, and my hearing lately hardly qualifies for detecting subtleties that this sort of tweak may bring.

I didn't say they were a waste of time and money. I did, in fact, encourage anyone who thinks they make a difference to go ahead and use them. Their addition to a system just didn't impress me, other than looking sort of cool. One friend of mine uses a set of them (made by Shunyata, out of hard rubber or some composite, I think - just over $300 w/shipping) with his Ushers. He's happy with them and thinks they make a difference even though none of his friends or family members agree. Another friend had a set of them, made of porcelain (or glass with a porcelain-like paint on them - cost about $150 w/shipping) that he tried for a week on two pairs of speakers, Sonus Faber floorstanders and another brand - don't know the speaker models, they weren't going to be anywhere near my shopping cart. He noticed no difference and returned them. He also didn't like the fact that they made sweeping his hardwood floors more difficult because he would knock them over with his Swiffer Sweeper (TM).

EndersShadow

This will be my only response to this and then I am out. Please note this is my attempt to clear up any question about your "thread crapping"

teekay0007 wrote: »

Thread crapping? I think not.

Post #1, F1nut came out saying he was skeptical about this tweak himself and invited others to chime in with their experiences, which is exactly what I did.

Incorrect, you came out with sarcastic comments about how it only mattered how much one spent on the risers, and baiting anyone to tell you different.

See comment 1 your first post in this thread which cannot be taken for anything other than hazing, razzing, laughing at anyone using cable risers.

teekay0007 wrote: »

I've found in situations like this that there's a direct correlation between the price paid for the cable elevators and the sound quality improvement realized from your system, especially to the buyer/owner of said system. Apparently, it doesn't matter what they're made of, how big they are, their color or how much they weigh; just how much is spent on them. So, the lesson to be taken from this is to spend on them like a madman. It's been presented to me, time and time again, that to get really good sound improvements from your cable elevators, the minimum spending threshold on a set that must be met is right around $300. Reeeeeallllllly good sound can be found at about the $600 price point.

F1Nut then responds to your comment with his own to which you then follow it up with some additional commentary that can be taken only as additional baiting of any member to question so as to create an argument. Especially the double blind study comment which you knew would create controversy especially given your personal opinions about double blind v many of our other forum members which have been argued time and time again.

F1nut wrote: »

Really? Let's see, so far I've spent zero, zip, nada as I have no idea where the Styrofoam cups came from. I do plan on buying the wooden ones because I'd like something a little more substantial and ten of them should run less than $120.00.

teekay0007 wrote: »

Ooh, that's kind of taking a(n) (unnecessary?) chance there, seeing as how you'll be substantially below the $300 threshold to get a really good sound quality improvement.

I'll keep an eye out for your blinded-evaluator study test results.

And here again your double blind comment got what you wanted, an argument to which you are more than happy to continue to add to, which if I may say so is a bit off topic from talking about those folks using cable risers....

teekay0007 wrote: »

Yes, headrott, I'm well aware of how you and several others around here are afraid of blind-evaluator testing. Afterall, disallowing it lets you justify, at least to yourself, some of the purchases you've made. More power to you. Statements like the following, by one of your idols in a thread a while back, are all I need to tell me that anything less than an evaluator-blinded study is just not going to cut it to demonstrate the merits of something like cable elevators in improving the sound quality of any given system.

F1nut: I don't believe in blind testing as they are notoriously misleading. Do you really think a SS receiver sounds the same as a pair of OTL tube mono blocks? That was the actual result of a blind test and clearly demonstrates that blind testing for audio is completely worthless.

Yes, if you don't like the results obtained, don't believe them and simply denounce the study method used.

Oh, and yes, this is just my humble opinion. If anyone wants to invest in cable elevators, then by all means they should go right ahead. It's their money. If they also believe that their being able to see the cable elevators - or the absence of them - while listening to their system is the only way they can get a proper assessment of how the cable elevators affect their system's SQ, then again, they should go for it and knock themselves out and feel good about their unbiased assessment.

_________________________________________________________________________________________

teekay0007 wrote: »

I didn't know that input to "discussions" here was only allowed if they were in line with others' beliefs. Kind of defeats the whole idea of a discussion now, doesn't it?

There is room for discussion, however you tend to not attempt to "discuss" things in anything other than a argumentative format. Civil discussion does not need tons of internet sarcasm degrading people who spend money on items you personally don't believe make any difference (see your quote below again for some additional "argumentative" statements)

teekay0007 wrote: »

Heck, I'm still looking for the "I'd just scrap my old 1080i $300 TV and buy a new, thin one, rather than add a $1000 power cord and seven shower curtain stabilizing rods to my old one" box. I'd check that box too.

_____________________________________________________________________________________

teekay0007 wrote: »

I guess maybe I should have just asked where the box is that I am to check that's next to "I feel cable elevators make no sonic improvement", rather than to elaborate on it.

^See was that so hard? You could have just said, "Personally don't think it makes a difference" and been done with it. Quick statement, no sarcasm, no baiting for further arguments, done. But that's not how you operate.

______________________________________________________________________

teekay0007 wrote: »

Further, I greatly respect F1's knowledge - he knows more about good audio than I'll ever dream of knowing - and appreciate his input on this forum, but by your definition of thread crapping and harassment (ie. name calling - "BOZO"), EndersShadow, there's no bigger offender here, IMHO, than F1 that I've seen. I, myself, have grown to get a kick out of his way of expressing himself. It doesn't bother me in the slightest, but I can also see - and have seen - where it offends others. Yet, he seems to get a pass around here.

As I am not a mod I cannot comment on if he has been warned, and we have no way of knowing that information. So your comment "He gets" a pass is your personal opinion given partial information as none of us besides the mod's know how many times he has been warned, banned, has posts edited or removed.

cstmar01

its amazing how people state "oh I'm sharing my opinion" which is to make fun of people by posting crap like this

"So, the lesson to be taken from this is to spend on them like a madman. It's been presented to me, time and time again, that to get really good sound improvements from your cable elevators, the minimum spending threshold on a set that must be met is right around $300. Reeeeeallllllly good sound can be found at about the $600 price point."

But you are really just sharing your experiences? Really because it sure doesn't look like it.

BlueFox

After reading the troll's response that a friend uses Shunyata cable lifts I decided to look it up since I have not paid attention to that product. If their cable lifts work half as good as their power and signal cables then they are a bargin. This is what they have to say.

"STANDARD CABLE ISOLATION THEORY
Conventional cable isolation theory holds that optimal cable performance can be achieved by elevating cables from the floor in an attempt to control vibrations and manage static fields. Typical cable elevators are made from electrically insulating materials such as wood, glass, plastic or ceramics. Most of these products claim superior performance based upon the materials or methods of elevation.

The central problem with the conventional model is that elevating a cable from the floor with an electrical insulator creates a relative static charge differential between the cable and floor. Over a period of time this static differential can become enormous -- sometimes exceeding tens of thousands of volts. When an electrical signal is sent through the cable, the signal can become distorted or inter-modulated by the static electrical field differential between the cable and floor. This effect is similar to sending an electrical signal through a wire that passes through a powerful magnetic field. The distortion that results is quite audible with any quality entertainment system.

STATIC FIELD UNIFICATION
The Shunyata Research Dark Field Cable Elevator is based upon a patent-pending static-field-unification principle. The elevator is constructed from a static resistant and electrically conductive carbon impregnated polymer compound."

http://www.shunyata.com/Content/products-DFEv2.html

F1nut

The central problem with the conventional model is that elevating a cable from the floor with an electrical insulator creates a relative static charge differential between the cable and floor. Over a period of time this static differential can become enormous -- sometimes exceeding tens of thousands of volts. When an electrical signal is sent through the cable, the signal can become distorted or inter-modulated by the static electrical field differential between the cable and floor. This effect is similar to sending an electrical signal through a wire that passes through a powerful magnetic field. The distortion that results is quite audible with any quality entertainment system.

I'm having a really hard time buying that one and I'm one of the more open minded folks around here.

Systems

Dan.........
Time to call you out my friend.

Yes, I love ya, but I have seen you crap on more "for sale" threads than anyone.
"If I hadn't just spent so and so"
"Man your killing me, Errrrrrrrrrrrrr........your killing me here... If I had just not bought 43 shower curtains I would be "all in"........
"These would be mine" if I had not just bought the "Saved by the Bell" shower curtain in episode 3!
Whatever, I am not sure I have ever meet a bigger "TIREKICKER" my friend!
Should I report each and everyone?:eek:

But IMHO, I would not call anyone out with the "tirekicking" you have done over the years.
Just saying.

Do I care about the whole situation?
Not so much..........

But rest assured I am getting pretty sick of your posting in everyone's "For Sale" threads.

"Oh man, If I had so and so, and could sale this or that", then "I would do this or that".

Whatever............just wanted to mention that BS!
I doubt you will see me much on this forum, but wanted to mention it to ya, on my way out!

Nothing but the best to you and your family Dan, and you know I mean that.

EndersShadow

pepster wrote: »

Dan.........
Time to call you out my friend.

Yes, I love ya, but I have seen you crap on more "for sale" threads than anyone.
"If I hadn't just spent so and so"
"Man your killing me, Errrrrrrrrrrrrr........your killing me here... If I had just not bought 43 shower curtains I would be "all in"........
"These would be mine" if I had not just bought the "Saved by the Bell" shower curtain in episode 3!
Whatever, I am not sure I have ever meet a bigger "TIREKICKER" my friend!
Should I report each and everyone?:eek:

But IMHO, I would not call anyone out with the "tirekicking" you have done over the years.
Just saying.

Do I care about the whole situation?
Not so much..........

But rest assured I am getting pretty sick of your posting in everyone's "For Sale" threads.

"Oh man, If I had so and so, and could sale this or that", then "I would do this or that".

Whatever............just wanted to mention that BS!
I doubt you will see me much on this forum, but wanted to mention it to ya, on my way out!

Nothing but the best to you and your family Dan, and you know I mean that.

Duly noted and you are correct, I am a tirekicker. I will work to resolve that issue in the future. My apologies for any I may have offended selling items I have "tire kicked"

Hope you stick around pep.

Systems

EndersShadow wrote: »

Duly noted and you are correct, I am a tirekicker. I will work to resolve that issue in the future. My apologies for any I may have offended selling items I have "tire kicked"

Hope you stick around pep.

Rest assured your family is my family, always.........
You have a beautiful family Dan!
You know I am happy for ya Bro!
For SURE!
Promise!

And Iwould like to see some more pics of her (Sky?)
Cannot beat a better pic than that my friend!!!!!

Lets see em!:biggrin:

EndersShadow

pepster wrote: »

Rest assured I love you my friend and Sky and the whole family!!:cheesygrin:

Promise!

Its ok pep, I can take some tough love, and admit when I am wrong , and you are right in this case. We will always have our powercable transaction to tie us together

No issues on my end my man. Now back to regularly scheduled programming.

Systems

Ummmmmmmm.............Pics of the Baby?
Hello?

EndersShadow

pepster wrote: »

Ummmmmmmm.............Pics of the Babie?
Hello?

Here ya go matey...

The first time she saw daddy's 2 channel system and listened to LP's
Attachment not found.

Attachment not found.

Systems

Funny,it all equals your life!:frown, we do what we can do for th picture!

steveinaz

Another "side" benefit of the cable elevators is that it can route your cables over ac or other possibly offending cables. Even if they had zero audible benefit, I'd use them just for the athestic/routing factors.

SCompRacer

steveinaz wrote: »

Another "side" benefit of the cable elevators is that it can route your cables over ac or other possibly offending cables. Even if they had zero audible benefit, I'd use them just for the athestic/routing factors.

I do two different room setups for my two channel so rather than mount acoustic treatments to the wall behind speakers I built three stands. I cut multiple slots in the front and rear of supports. I can route my bass and panel speaker cables, power wires for speakers and IC's to amp in separate slots. Crossing cables can be OK but a long parallel run of them can invite issues.