What is it about Speakers??

Toolfan66

That make so many of us crazy??

It seems there are so many peeps that buy/collect/modify speakers, and spend more time doing so then their actual gear to run them..

I know I had my moment where I did this, but I now spend more of my time with my gear choices then speakers, but!!! I am happy with my speakers for the moment as well..

Sometimes I get the feeling that most feel the speakers are more important then said gear. Now this might be true and come across more with new members, the peeps that have hung out and pushed to a higher level of sound..

Again it just seems speakers make many of us crazy and pick-up a set even if they don't need them or better yet some folks have many sets of the same model collecting dust.. LOL!!::cheesygrin:

drumminman

Maybe it's that speakers are easier to mod for those of us without advanced electronics knowledge than front end components.

I've thought for a long time though that as long as your speakers are decent, front end upgrades will yield more bang for the buck. IOW you're not really hearing what your speaks can do if your front end (CDP, DAC, pre, and amp) is not high quality. In my experience upgrading any of these, as long as there are no compatibility issues, almost always improves what you hear from your speaks.

Mystery

Toolfan66 wrote: »

That make so many of us crazy??
I know I had my moment where I did this, but I now spend more of my time with my gear choices then speakers, but!!! I am happy with my speakers for the moment as well...

Since you were in that phase at one time, why did you do it?

For me, it's because I know the speakers I have are not high-end and there is so much room for improvement.
I can go get different amps but speakers are the front end and you can only do so much without changing the front end.
It's like pushing 1080p resolution from blu-ray to a CRT monitor that does no good whether signal is from a DVD player or blu-ray.
I'd rather upgrade monitor to LCD/LED first and then get a blu-ray player.

falconcry72

I am an equal opportunity obsess-or. :cheesygrin: In fact, I have more excess amps, preamps, and DACs layin' around than I have excess speakers.

That said, speakers have the biggest impact on sound by far, and they are the most exciting component to change out because of how different they sound. For example, I use to like to switch back and forth between a pair of Maggies and a pair of SDA's in my 2-channel system. Talk about different sounds! There is no amp or preamp that I could have swapped in that would have made that dramatic of a difference in sound.

I've been playing more with components than speakers recently, because I'm pretty happy with my speakers... but I'm sure I'll get the itch again soon...

Mr. Bubbles

For me its somewhat multifaceted but primarily comes back to my years in car audio. When the components are isolated (save for a few very educated and intelligent people); we simply don't and are mostly unable to design and then build our own gear except for speaker systems. With speakers we can choose from a wide array of components and design the system around those. That's what I did in car audio. Sure we put together entire sound systems but when broken down to sub systems inside the overall plan the speakers were where I was able to be creative and create my own designs for my customers to have what others didn't. It is basically what separated the winners from the losers in the car audio events. Everyone could purchase the same gear, but not everyone could adjust the sound exiting the speakers the same way. I was fascinated early on by how a person could take lesser components and when put together properly make them sound much better than high end components put together by the average installer.

Conradicles

Bingo

falconcry72 wrote: »

I am an equal opportunity obsess-or. :cheesygrin: In fact, I have more excess amps, preamps, and DACs layin' around than I have excess speakers.

That said, speakers have the biggest impact on sound by far, and they are the most exciting component to change out because of how different they sound. For example, I use to like to switch back and forth between a pair of Maggies and a pair of SDA's in my 2-channel system. Talk about different sounds! There is no amp or preamp that I could have swapped in that would have made that dramatic of a difference in sound.

I've been playing more with components than speakers recently, because I'm pretty happy with my speakers... but I'm sure I'll get the itch again soon...

Toolfan66

I do crazy things because I have an addictive personality, and sometimes I have to put my self in check..

I have also learned that without quality gear you will never know what your speakers can really do. Sometimes the weak links in gear can make the best speakers sound like ****..

I have also learned about synergy!!! This IMO along with isolating your gear from vibration ( pads-spikes ), and room treatments are for the most part the most important thing one can do!!

Toolfan66

DSkip wrote: »

Started as ignorance. I've stopped because I love my Usher's so and have not heard anything in my prospective price range to better them. Now I do it for a bit of fun and flipping opportunity. Nothing in audio is easier to flip than speakers. Even those ignorant of how electronics affect the sound are willing to trade out speakers.

I've almost cleared out my "stash". It's kind of nice to have an extra closet in the house now.

That's where I am at with my 1.2tl's, and my wife likes the extra room since I have let go of a lot of my stash. But I still have my closet full of parts!!

PolkMaster1

Toolfan66 wrote: »

I do crazy things because I have an addictive personality, and sometimes I have to put my self in check..

I have also learned that without quality gear you will never know what your speakers can really do. Sometimes the weak links in gear can make the best speakers sound like ****..

I have also learned about synergy!!! This IMO along with isolating your gear from vibration ( pads-spikes ), and room treatments are for the most part the most important thing one can do!!

THIS!!! ^^^^

I've recently finished upgrading the caps in my speakers for now and am moving on to upgrading the caps in my amp.
The lastest caps I am using are Jupiter for the Tweeters and Clarity Cap MRs for the Drivers and SDA in an attempt to bring out the most potential my 1.2TLs have to offer.

Toolfan66

I was hoping that we would get some different view's since everyone's journey is different as well as we all have different budgets as well..

The nice thing is there is no right or wrong just different opinions on how we think is should be done. I know that I still have a lot to learn and have been critical on other's view's..

I just thought this would be a fun discussion, and hope it stays that way..

mhardy6647

There are very different takes on what constitutes good reproduction of sound - and many in this hobby are not looking for accuracy against a given standard (e.g., a live performance - which is actually irrelevant for many kinds of "modern" recorded music, anyway). They want it to "sound good" to them (a very objective endpoint). The Zu Druids are a good example, I think. Some folks love 'em, others hate 'em... it is kind of like licorice, or cilantro. :-)

This subjective "bottom line" standard of excellence is as applicable, I think, for the manufacturers of loudspeakers as it is for the consumers of loudspeakers - even in this era of cheap, easy analytical hardware for FFT analysis, automated Thiele-Small parameter analysis, sophisticated crossover modeling, CAD/CAM design of mininmally diffracting enclosures, etc. etc.

That said, I think that the best loudspeaker designers and manufacturers ultimately use their ears (or someone's ears) to decide the ultimate "voice" of their loudspeakers.

That said, I find that I enjoy myriad different loudspeaker 'voices'. Day-in/day-out, my preference is the "Altec Voice of the Theatre" sound. These loudspeakers were not flat - they featured a significant midrange peak (hump) that was purpose-built to project sound through a movie theatre screen... because that is they way they were intended to be used. Over the decades, audiophiles have adapted the effortless dynamics and breathy, musician's in the room with me presence of the VOTs to much higher standards of fidelity with vastly improved crossovers and augmentation with a subwoofer (and, in some cases, with supertweeters) to counteract the marked roll-off of these speakers at both ends of the audible spectrum.

But I also really enjoy the sound of the classic Quad ESL-57 electrostatic, the BBC LS3/5a specification nearfield monitors, the 1970s/1980s Braun/ads loudspeakkers and (not coincidentally) the original Polk "Monitor Series" speakers. These are all more sophisticated and more polite sounding loudspeakers than the Altecs - but they all (Altecs) get the midrange right in a subjective way that works for me.

So - short story long ;-) - I think one needs to own and log lots of ears-on time with lots of different speakers and lots of different kinds of music.

lcrakel87

For me, its about trying new things. I love getting a new pair of speakers and setting them up for the first time.

cnh

I'm pretty much in agreement with mhardy above. You really need to listen to a lot of different things. But I have also ALWAYS believed that there are just some SPEAKERS that sound "good" with almost anything powering them because they WERE designed to do so and because YOU can produce such a design! And that is where all these endless varieties of this and that that exist today just disturb me. I know that I own a few vintage pieces that though they sound a "little" different on this and that amp, do NOT vary much! And "I" like that, I like that A LOT! Considering the number of things I have to attend to in my field daily, I do not want to spend the rest of my life chasing some synergy I may never see if I can find a set of speakers that will "do" that for me! And I believe there are some out there that do that fine!

Personally I am not that much interested in the law of diminishing returns. I'm not trying to get that last one or to two percent out of my system if I already have 98 percent.It's not worth the time or the money. And at my age, I probably won't be able to "hear" that "difference" anyway. I already can't hear above 14Khz? And that will only get WORSE as I become a toothless, deaf, balding old **** in a couple of decades or so? I'll probably be lucky if I can hear my wife calling me to dinner! lol

cnh

mhardy6647

cnh wrote: »

... But I have also ALWAYS believed that there are just some SPEAKERS that sound "good" with almost anything powering them because they WERE designed to do so...

.

Indeed. A good example are the mid-late 1970s ads loudspeakers (e.g., the L-710). Despite being sealed-box ("monkey coffin") acoustic suspension loudspeakers, they're surprisingly sensitive and sound good even with low-powered vacuum tube amplification (e.g., single-ended 2A3 at ca. 3.5 watts per channel). It's a safe bet that the Braun designers of these speakers didn't ever envision someone using 'em with such an amplifier... but their design nonetheless enabled it.

I will say that, to my surprise, my own Polk Audio Monitor 7As did not sound great when hooked to an EICO HF-81 (push-pull EL84 stereo integrated amp of about 12 wpc). The L-710s and some other "modern" (relatively speaking) loudspeakers such as DCM timewindow (original series) and Allison Ones sounded dandy on the EICO.

Toolfan66

mhardy6647 wrote: »

There are very different takes on what constitutes good reproduction of sound - and many in this hobby are not looking for accuracy against a given standard (e.g., a live performance - which is actually irrelevant for many kinds of "modern" recorded music, anyway). They want it to "sound good" to them (a very objective endpoint). The Zu Druids are a good example, I think. Some folks love 'em, others hate 'em... it is kind of like licorice, or cilantro. :-)

This subjective "bottom line" standard of excellence is as applicable, I think, for the manufacturers of loudspeakers as it is for the consumers of loudspeakers - even in this era of cheap, easy analytical hardware for FFT analysis, automated Thiele-Small parameter analysis, sophisticated crossover modeling, CAD/CAM design of mininmally diffracting enclosures, etc. etc.

That said, I think that the best loudspeaker designers and manufacturers ultimately use their ears (or someone's ears) to decide the ultimate "voice" of their loudspeakers.

That said, I find that I enjoy myriad different loudspeaker 'voices'. Day-in/day-out, my preference is the "Altec Voice of the Theatre" sound. These loudspeakers were not flat - they featured a significant midrange peak (hump) that was purpose-built to project sound through a movie theatre screen... because that is they way they were intended to be used. Over the decades, audiophiles have adapted the effortless dynamics and breathy, musician's in the room with me presence of the VOTs to much higher standards of fidelity with vastly improved crossovers and augmentation with a subwoofer (and, in some cases, with supertweeters) to counteract the marked roll-off of these speakers at both ends of the audible spectrum.

But I also really enjoy the sound of the classic Quad ESL-57 electrostatic, the BBC LS3/5a specification nearfield monitors, the 1970s/1980s Braun/ads loudspeakkers and (not coincidentally) the original Polk "Monitor Series" speakers. These are all more sophisticated and more polite sounding loudspeakers than the Altecs - but they all (Altecs) get the midrange right in a subjective way that works for me.

So - short story long ;-) - I think one needs to own and log lots of ears-on time with lots of different speakers and lots of different kinds of music.

cnh wrote: »

I'm pretty much in agreement with mhardy above. You really need to listen to a lot of different things. But I have also ALWAYS believed that there are just some SPEAKERS that sound "good" with almost anything powering them because they WERE designed to do so and because YOU can produce such a design! And that is where all these endless varieties of this and that that exist today just disturb me. I know that I own a few vintage pieces that though they sound a "little" different on this and that amp, do NOT vary much! And "I" like that, I like that A LOT! Considering the number of things I have to attend to in my field daily, I do not want to spend the rest of my life chasing some synergy I may never see if I can find a set of speakers that will "do" that for me! And I believe there are some out there that do that fine!

Personally I am not that much interested in the law of diminishing returns. I'm not trying to get that last one or to two percent out of my system if I already have 98 percent.It's not worth the time or the money. And at my age, I probably won't be able to "hear" that "difference" anyway. I already can't hear above 14Khz? And that will only get WORSE as I become a toothless, deaf, balding old **** in a couple of decades or so? I'll probably be lucky if I can hear my wife calling me to dinner! lol

cnh

Nice write up guys, and well said..

sda2mike

the good ones have personality....some would say they're not supposed to but they do...they also don't have bad tendencies, that can be acceptable at first, but will challenge any long term friendship...now excuse me, i've lost me lighter;)

treitz3

Speakers lay the premise of what is upstream and IMO, are the single most important part of any system leading all of the way back to incoming power before the outlet and associated ground configurations.

Tom

soundfreak1

I have a jones for a new ( vintage ) pair of speakers but find anything that could " de-thrown" my RTA12c's at least for less than a grand. Im sure they exist but i cant find them!

Toolfan66

treitz3 wrote: »

Speakers lay the premise of what is upstream and IMO, are the single most important part of any system leading all of the way back to incoming power before the outlet and associated ground configurations.

Tom

Wouldn't you agree that the room can make or break even the best of speakers? I would have a hard time putting the room on the bottom of the food chain in regards to a fine tuned system.. Treating a room is like getting a new set of speakers without having to move them in and out..

I know the speakers don't always sound like **** but treatments sure can place the instruments in the right place, and fine tune the bass hits. I don't have the most optimal room, and room treatments sure help fine tune my room, and give my room a larger then life feel..

Not saying I disagree with you as a matter of fact I agree.

halo71

My fascination is there are just so many great speakers out there. And I read reviews and what not and want them! In my very limited budget....I go more for the vintage stuff. On my hit list ADS 1530, ESS Rock Monitor, Infinity QLS and Polk SDA to name a few. And the big ole' Altec's and JBL's fascinate me, especially the big mutli cell horns. Don't even get me started on Kenrick vids on Youtube! lol

I have several pairs of speakers that I rotate in and out all the time. Luckily I have a huge listening room and another room dedicated to my "junk" that is gear storage. As well I am lucky to have a wife that does not fret when she comes home and there are 3 pairs of speakers in the den. She never complains! I think I really wanna be on that show horders someday!

StantonZ

Speakers and phone cartridges have the biggest "bang for the buck" impact on any system. Don't know what's taken the place of phono cartridges...DACs :question:

halo71

Lasareath wrote: »

I tried to do the same with women but I got in trouble with the law , So I stuck with speakers!

Same here, but it was with a lawyer.

Dabutcher

I started with weak sounding speakers and bought different ones to try out. Twenty years go I found a pair of ADS speakers and loved the sound . I had never heard of them and the Internet was new and then I kept finding more pairs of the until I had quite a collection and never knew their loyal following . I just knew I loved the sound. Then I bought my first pair of new speakers from Newegg Monitor 70's and started hanging around this forum . Everyone's ears are different and even though I no longer have ADS speakers. My new to me Monitor 10A's are bringing me that classic sound back! My wife thinks I am nuts over speakers! Without hobby's , where would we be? Keeps me out of trouble and sane at the same time. Peace

westmassguy

For me it's always been about the mechanics of sound reproduction. All those moving parts working together to create music from an electrical signal. You can play with them (boys and their toys), take them apart, and put them back together. Even those with rudimentary electrical and or carpentry skills can repair, restore, and improve what they have. Modern electronics on the other hand, have become almost impossible to service. Circuit traces and individual components that were once easy to identify and repair, have become microscopic, or are all contained in a single, non-serviceable chip.
You can open a KLH speaker from the early 70s, or a new speaker, made in China from a big box store, and still know your way around.

drumminman

mhardy6647 wrote: »

.

Indeed. A good example are the mid-late 1970s ads loudspeakers (e.g., the L-710). Despite being sealed-box ("monkey coffin") acoustic suspension loudspeakers, they're surprisingly sensitive and sound good even with low-powered vacuum tube amplification (e.g., single-ended 2A3 at ca. 3.5 watts per channel). It's a safe bet that the Braun designers of these speakers didn't ever envision someone using 'em with such an amplifier... but their design nonetheless enabled it.

I will say that, to my surprise, my own Polk Audio Monitor 7As did not sound great when hooked to an EICO HF-81 (push-pull EL84 stereo integrated amp of about 12 wpc). The L-710s and some other "modern" (relatively speaking) loudspeakers such as DCM timewindow (original series) and Allison Ones sounded dandy on the EICO.

Man those remind me of my long departed L-700's. Same cabinet, woofers, tweeter but without the mid range. Wish I still had 'em.

Jhayman

What Tom said IMO is the most correct its all about the speakers first and foremost then you can customize the sound to your liking by adding other components..
It's like when someone is going to build a system and their budget is 10K, IMO 50% should goto speakers first then the other 50% for everything else.

treitz3 wrote: »

Speakers lay the premise of what is upstream and IMO, are the single most important part of any system leading all of the way back to incoming power before the outlet and associated ground configurations.

Tom

mhardy6647

drumminman wrote: »

Man those remind me of my long departed L-700's. Same cabinet, woofers, tweeter but without the mid range. Wish I still had 'em.

Superb loudspeakers by any reasonable (qualitative!) standard.
I wish you still had 'em, too :-)

Mystery

drumminman wrote: »

Man those remind me of my long departed L-700's. Same cabinet, woofers, tweeter but without the mid range. Wish I still had 'em.

You mean these?
I had them L700 and very decent speakers.
I think it actually had Braun in the back label as well as ADS.

I never have had 3-way ADS yet.
I traded the 700's for a Mackie PA amp. No, I'm not using the Mackie to power Polks.

WLDock

Speakers sound REALLY different. IMO, if one compares different mid-end AVR's and source units the differences are small compared to speakers. Speakers can sound SO different that you really don't have to think about it or concentrate on it sometimes...its is just blatantly obvious the difference between a set of Polk vs. Klipsch vs. KEF, etc.

Then once you jump into the world of DIY and put together something nice this experience just opens up the "never satisfied" door. Some just have to the need to tweek!

PolkieMan

Speakers matter the most then the room and placement then the equiptment. Speakers are fun to tweak and make the biggest difference in the System.

Schurkey

Speakers have the highest distortion/coloration of any component in the audio chain.

Reducing (or even merely changing) the distortion spectrum with different speakers (or different positioning of the "old" speakers) can result in a considerable "quality" gain depending on how the new distortion spectrum compares to the old; and how it interacts with the room and the frequency response of the listener's ear/brain.