Big towers really needed??

snake1

Hey guys, looking for some educating. I've been reading some articles lately about setting XO's for subs when you have big tower mains. Basically I'm seeing that settings should be around 80ish hz for towers, use the 'small' setting and let the sub handle the rest. It also advised against the double bass setting which I can understand. The thing that bugs me is since I'd have the XO set to 80hz, what is the point to the woofers in my 12's from then on?? Do they still do anything in the higher ranges? Do they help the sound at all now? Is it pointless to have towers and a sub??

BlueFox

Personal referance. I have 4 towers in my HT along with the center. Everything is set to large, and the sub rarely gets turned on. When it is used, it runs off the pre-amp front outputs. Plus I never use the sub for listening to SACD surround, or just two channel music.

EndersShadow

snake1 wrote: »

Is it pointless to have towers and a sub??

It depends....

What you will find is that some folks prefer to listen to 2 channel music in a "Direct" type mode which bypasses the Xover setting in the AVR and runs the speakers full range. Doing so lets you take advantage of the full potential of the speaker.

Also some folks like to run their speakers full range (like I do) and go without a sub entirely. You could also argue that folks that do multi-channel music (SACD, DVD-A) want to be able to set their crossovers lower to enjoy the full range of the speakers as mastered in the music.

So its kinda a overall suggestion to start with the X-over in your speakers at 80, but you can always go lower if your speaker is capable of actually providing those lower frequencies.

Most full range speakers honestly still need help down low anyway (even my LSi 15's would benefit from a sub) so setting your speaker crossover below 80 and still using a sub isnt a bad idea. The woofers in your 12's still probably need some help below 40 hz which is where the sub will really be able to help them out in movies and music.

rpf65

There are a variety of reasons to have all those woofers, as mentioned above. Besides, 3 of them look a lot more impressive than 1 or none would. That alone makes those woofers worth it.

I think you may be looking at it a little backwards though. Polk specs say that those 12's are capable of getting to 18 Hz, but the -3 db is 30 Hz. I've read a lot on subs in the last 4 months or so, and that beats most under $400 sub specs. Speaking MSRP, not sale prices here. Problem is that will call on a whole bunch of power that could be used else where. Not the point I'm trying to make here though.

You could actually pull your subs, get a huge amp, and have a really impressive sounding x.0 system,if that is what you would like. The point is you have the extra cieling that your not pushing your lower freqs enough to break a sweat. In theory, that sould extend the life of all those woofers, which could start adding up if they had to be replaced. There are a lot of other factors, but the thing to remember is you can never have enough reserve anything.

snake1

I had thought about lower XO freq at possibly 60 or so. I'll give it a go when the time comes.

Geoff4rfc

My mains and center are set to 40hz. My subs are set to 120hz in the AVR running LFE. I have a beautiful blend of sound.

snake1

Geoff4rfc wrote: »

My mains and center are set to 40hz. My subs are set to 120hz in the AVR running LFE. I have a beautiful blend of sound.

Thanks for the suggestion! I'll give that a try as well!

allstock

snake1 wrote: »

Thanks for the suggestion! I'll give that a try as well!

X2. Except I'm crossing at 60hz. Experimentation is key!

pearsall001

Once you understand that there are very, very few true "Fullrange" speakers out there, and the one's that are are so damn big & expensive that only the well to do can actually afford them. For the most part the floorstanders that us mere mortals own have an impossible job of trying to reproduce the full music spectrum. They simply can't do it & fall apart & are in dire need of help. It's all about physics & how much air the cabinets can generate. Enter the ("Subwoofer" or "Subwoofer's),when properly dialed in & the mains are relieved of trying to do what they simply can't do it's a revelation. It's just a tough nut to crack for some to come to the conclusion that a sub is needed. Now a lot of this depends on the quality of the sub & how well they are dialed in, if not done right then you have a real mess on your hands.

Now, can you be happy with just a pair of floorstanders & no sub...you certainly can but boy oh boy you're short changing yourself in the music department.

F1nut

The thing that bugs me is since I'd have the XO set to 80hz, what is the point to the woofers in my 12's from then on??

The 80Hz setting isn't a hard cut off, rather a gentle roll off. That means your woofers are still making noise below 80Hz, which makes for a seamless transition and that is the point.

F1nut

Now, can you be happy with just a pair of floorstanders & no sub...you certainly can but boy oh boy you're short changing yourself in the music department.

Big SDA's don't need no stinkin' sub. :cheesygrin:

tonyb

F1nut wrote: »

Big SDA's don't need no stinkin' sub. :cheesygrin:

Amen....neither do my Legacys and I'm certainly mortal. Just comes down to preference, application, and budget is all.

pearsall001

F1nut wrote: »

Big SDA's don't need no stinkin' sub. :cheesygrin:

From your post I'll take it that you actually had them mated with a quality sub/subs to come to that conclusion or it's simply an opinion without ever trying it.

tonyb wrote: »

Amen....neither do my Legacys and I'm certainly mortal. Just comes down to preference, application, and budget is all.

Legacy's are excellent speakers that dig pretty deep...but just like Jesse, I'll ask have you actually had them paired with a quality sub/subs to come to that conclusion?

tonyb

On the exact pair Phil, no...but i have had subs in the past which is why I went with bigger floorstanders to get rid of the subs. A matter of preference is all, neither way is right or wrong.

devani

I have AR9 and I don't need sub for 2ch duty...it's so addictive...

I have RTi6 and CSi5 crossed at 60Hz for HT...I only turn on the sub for HT if I am home alone watching movies instead of Disney/Pixar stuff...

amgala

I'm surprised some people prefer to listen to music in stereo. I understand that standard CDs are two-channel only, but man does the music sound awesome with the Dolby Prologic II Music setting on my receiver! You are encapsulated by the sound instead of it just coming from one direction.

lanchile

amgala wrote: »

I'm surprised some people prefer to listen to music in stereo. I understand that standard CDs are two-channel only, but man does the music sound awesome with the Dolby Prologic II Music setting on my receiver! You are encapsulated by the sound instead of it just coming from one direction.

if you listen to live music, let say for example a guitar player...the music will come from "one direction" and you will not hear it in Dolby pro logic sound crab. just put your ears next to the rear speakers in a D.S.P set up and you will just hear "echo sound" that is just delay... that to me is fake sound!. a good two channel amp will sound better than a good 5.1 or 7.1 Dolby pro logic receiver. But again, What do I know beside fixing and building amps!:cheesygrin:

F1nut

pearsall001 wrote: »

From your post I'll take it that you actually had them mated with a quality sub/subs to come to that conclusion or it's simply an opinion without ever trying it.

The last thing I need is more bass, it gets kind of scary as is, so why would I connect a sub to a set up that doesn't need one?

amgala

lanchile wrote: »

if you listen to live music, let say for example a guitar player...the music will come from "one direction" and you will not hear it in Dolby pro logic sound crab. just put your ears next to the rear speakers in a D.S.P set up and you will just hear "echo sound" that is just delay... that to me is fake sound!. a good two channel amp will sound better than a good 5.1 or 7.1 Dolby pro logic receiver. But again, What do I know beside fixing and building amps!:cheesygrin:

Gotcha, thanks for the info!

mhardy6647

FWIW - I am not the best person to ask a question akin to "why would I want a large loudspeaker"...

BlueFox

F1nut wrote: »

The last thing I need is more bass, it gets kind of scary as is, so why would I connect a sub to a set up that doesn't need one?

Some people are just ba$$holes. They try to justify their afflication by saying full range speakers are not really full range, and you need a sub in order to really hear the music. :rolleyes:

pearsall001

F1nut wrote: »

The last thing I need is more bass, it gets kind of scary as is, so why would I connect a sub to a set up that doesn't need one?

Adding subs is sooooooo much more than just adding more bass. So you really never experienced subs with your set up I take it. You should try it & experience it 1st hand. I thought you were all about a truly musical experience???

BlueFox wrote: »

Some people are just ba$$holes. They try to justify their afflication by saying full range speakers are not really full range, and you need a sub in order to really hear the music. :rolleyes:

It's got nothing to do with being a bass head...and yes you are correct your speakers are no where near being "fullrange". I know it's a tough nut for you guys to swallow but it is what it is. :eek:

pearsall001

tonyb wrote: »

On the exact pair Phil, no...but i have had subs in the past which is why I went with bigger floorstanders to get rid of the subs. A matter of preference is all, neither way is right or wrong.

At least you have 1st hand experience with other speakers & subs. Nothing like giving something a try before coming to a conclusion.

F1nut

Yes Phil, I have a sub in my HT rig. I've played music on that set up and can say that my big rig SDA's give up nothing. Ask anyone that has heard them.

pearsall001

F1nut wrote: »

Yes Phil, I have a sub in my HT rig. I've played music on that set up and can say that my big rig SDA's give up nothing. Ask anyone that has heard them.

It sounds like it's a tie...now add a dual sub & be prepared to be amazed.

leroyjr1

.......

naturallight

Pearsall...Now i can see a sub in an HT system. You want to be blown out of you seat with explosions and other junk.

But on a stock 2 channel system, just for music, not sure i get it (depending on what speakers you have of course) MY SDA 1C's have no problem putting out bass. Since i listen to classic rock/rock. I find no issues at all. Most of this stuff was never recorded with heavy bass, the newer music that dose have more bass, the 1C's will pound you with it.



So your point of putting a sub on 2 channel music, at least in my case, i don't get. Unless you just want to overpower the way the music was originally recorded, with bass.

wallstreet

For HT, I settled on a 60hz xover to my sub which I have tuned to 20hz. For music, it's just the two fronts. I used my ears and my handy dandy ratshack meter to get level bass. It also helps that my amp lets me smooth out frequency bumps caused by room acoustics.

pearsall001

naturallight wrote: »

Pearsall...Now i can see a sub in an HT system. You want to be blown out of you seat with explosions and other junk.

But on a stock 2 channel system, just for music, not sure i get it (depending on what speakers you have of course) MY SDA 1C's have no problem putting out bass. Since i listen to classic rock/rock. I find no issues at all. Most of this stuff was never recorded with heavy bass, the newer music that dose have more bass, the 1C's will pound you with it.



So your point of putting a sub on 2 channel music, at least in my case, i don't get. Unless you just want to overpower the way the music was originally recorded, with bass.

I understand your thinking that a sub/subs are needed for HT but not really needed for 2 channel listening. The big mistake is made in assuming that the sub/subs will only pound out the deep notes & overpower your system. Adding a sub/subs is sooooooo much more than just adding bass. It's the entire foundation of music, more like a building block. Here's my take on why I "LOVE" running not one but two hi-quality subs (the key here is in "quaity) & not just a bass thumping sub used for HT effects.

The #1 reason & benefit of adding a hi-quality sub/subs to your system is "NOT" & I repeat "NOT" how it further extends the bass response (a big assumption for the most part), but how it dramatically will improve the sound of your existing power amp & main speakers (regardless of what they are) from the midrange on up. That is the key & most compelling reason for adding a sub/subs to your system. Once your main speakers are freed from the burden of making deep bass, they will sound cleaner, faster, & clearer especially in the midrange & midbass. They will also image way better because there will be far less air pressure built up & therefore resonance & vibration affecting their cabinet walls. Your power amp will also perform as a much more powerful amp because it doesn't have to half kill itself trying to push those woofers. Also without a doubt the best place where you have your mains (because they sound good there) is most likely the worst place for proper bass response.

My last set of floorstendre were the Polk LSi15's which sounded wonderful on their own...enter the dual Velo subs & their performance & musicality reached new heights. My current KEF Q900's dig pretty darn deep & also sound impressive on their own...again enter the twin Velo subs & I can't begin to tell you how they have been elevated to a much higher degree of musicality.

Now don't get me wrong there's a lot of work & mean a lot of work involved to get it right but in my book the benefits far outweigh the hours of fiddling to get it right. Of course this is just my take on the subject & I'll never be without my twin subs. What I have described is just the tip of the iceberg as to why sub/subs benefit a 2 channel system. Why not give it a try, you'll be surprised at how much better your NEW speakers now sound.

robert0507

pearsall001 wrote: »

I understand your thinking that a sub/subs are needed for HT but not really needed for 2 channel listening. The big mistake is made in assuming that the sub/subs will only pound out the deep notes & overpower your system. Adding a sub/subs is sooooooo much more than just adding bass. It's the entire foundation of music, more like a building block. Here's my take on why I "LOVE" running not one but two hi-quality subs (the key here is in "quaity) & not just a bass thumping sub used for HT effects.

The #1 reason & benefit of adding a hi-quality sub/subs to your system is "NOT" & I repeat "NOT" how it further extends the bass response (a big assumption for the most part), but how it dramatically will improve the sound of your existing power amp & main speakers (regardless of what they are) from the midrange on up. That is the key & most compelling reason for adding a sub/subs to your system. Once your main speakers are freed from the burden of making deep bass, they will sound cleaner, faster, & clearer especially in the midrange & midbass. They will also image way better because there will be far less air pressure built up & therefore resonance & vibration affecting their cabinet walls. Your power amp will also perform as a much more powerful amp because it doesn't have to half kill itself trying to push those woofers. Also without a doubt the best place where you have your mains (because they sound good there) is most likely the worst place for proper bass response.

My last set of floorstendre were the Polk LSi15's which sounded wonderful on their own...enter the dual Velo subs & their performance & musicality reached new heights. My current KEF Q900's dig pretty darn deep & also sound impressive on their own...again enter the twin Velo subs & I can't begin to tell you how they have been elevated to a much higher degree of musicality.

Now don't get me wrong there's a lot of work & mean a lot of work involved to get it right but in my book the benefits far outweigh the hours of fiddling to get it right. Of course this is just my take on the subject & I'll never be without my twin subs. What I have described is just the tip of the iceberg as to why sub/subs benefit a 2 channel system. Why not give it a try, you'll be surprised at how much better your NEW speakers now sound.

any pics of your system?

pearsall001

robert0507 wrote: »

any pics of your system?

Just these 2 for now. The one pic has the d-Sonic M2-600M mono blocks next to the Rotel RMB-1095 for size comparison.