Disappointed in a system I did.
mantis
Posts: 17,194
hello all,
I helped out a customer with a existing system he already owned. He moved from one house to another. His new room for his system is smaller and now has hard wood floors instead of carpet.
He has a full set of 100th anniversary Denon 2 channel gear with a nice pair of Magnepan 3.6's in oak and off white finish. This system is wired with a few different kinds of wire in Kimber Kable , Analysis Plus and a few others I never heard of before.
After I got everything connected , I sat down and listened to a CD on his 100th anniversary Denon Universal CD player . The first thing I noticed is it sounded very thin and lifeless. I turned everything off , checked all connections and started tweaking my speaker position. I got a very good toe in , excellent tweeter placement with them being on the inside due to short placement issues and distance from speaker to seating. I have about 3 feet from the back wall and 2 feet from the left side wall. The right speaker I had a hallway so no boundry gains to worry about.
I sat back down and listened again. Still sounded thin and very non dynamic. I turned up the volume to try and bring the Denon to life but still nothing. At this point I'm assuming the Denon just doesn't have enough current to push the speakers correctly. Not to mention the room is about 14 wide by 12 deep. The system is set up on the 14 wide wall so depth is an issue for these speakers. I also got to consider more efficient speakers.
I talked to the system owner and told him it would be a good idea to sell these speakers and think about a more near field performing speaker. Maybe a killer set of 2 way bookshelf speakers on stands with a awesome sub or a nice smaller pair of floor standing speakers with a sub as well. He asked about the Magnepan 1.7's which he heard in our store on the Pioneer Elite SC-68 running the internal Dac and computer music. What's funny about that setup is he has heard the 1.7's at other places with higher end gear and said they sounded better on the Pioneer then everything else he has heard. He said" I didn't even really care for the 1.7's and thought my 3.6's where a way better speaker everywhere". "Now that I have heard them on this Pioneer , I can't believe how good they sound". "That is a A/V receiver right?". I smiled in our store and showed him that we where wired to it and now to a secret stack of amps. He liked the sound so much he wanted to buy the 1.7's. Well back in his room I told him "yes the 1.7's would probably work slightly better in this room but still not a great location for them. They will have the same issues the 3.6's will have. Not to mention the 3.6's are a better sounding speaker IMO".
So today I'm gonna go over our speaker inventory and see if I can come up with a suitable solution to his small room problem. He mentioned he listened to the Definitive Technology Mythos STS and both him and his wife liked them. As good as they are I'm not really sure it's the right move for him. Yes they are fantastic but he's got 3.6's which IMO are a better musical speaker just not in that room. I might have to bring over a few different things to see what I can get to sound right. I have a Killer pair of Revel M106 Bookshelf speakers that I'm think might be the magic. I also have a killer pair of Ultimate foundations loaded with lead that I think will really rock him. I also have a very nice Velodyne MiniV that would fill out the bottom end. We are also picking up REL which is a huge bonus for me as I love REL subs. I also think they are slightly more musical then the Matching Velodyne's. Not by much but they seem to blend in just a tad bit better. For theater they lack and the Velodyne's are a much better double duty sub but in this system I think one just might be the exact piece I need to surpass the sound of the 3.6's and knock his socks off.
I helped out a customer with a existing system he already owned. He moved from one house to another. His new room for his system is smaller and now has hard wood floors instead of carpet.
He has a full set of 100th anniversary Denon 2 channel gear with a nice pair of Magnepan 3.6's in oak and off white finish. This system is wired with a few different kinds of wire in Kimber Kable , Analysis Plus and a few others I never heard of before.
After I got everything connected , I sat down and listened to a CD on his 100th anniversary Denon Universal CD player . The first thing I noticed is it sounded very thin and lifeless. I turned everything off , checked all connections and started tweaking my speaker position. I got a very good toe in , excellent tweeter placement with them being on the inside due to short placement issues and distance from speaker to seating. I have about 3 feet from the back wall and 2 feet from the left side wall. The right speaker I had a hallway so no boundry gains to worry about.
I sat back down and listened again. Still sounded thin and very non dynamic. I turned up the volume to try and bring the Denon to life but still nothing. At this point I'm assuming the Denon just doesn't have enough current to push the speakers correctly. Not to mention the room is about 14 wide by 12 deep. The system is set up on the 14 wide wall so depth is an issue for these speakers. I also got to consider more efficient speakers.
I talked to the system owner and told him it would be a good idea to sell these speakers and think about a more near field performing speaker. Maybe a killer set of 2 way bookshelf speakers on stands with a awesome sub or a nice smaller pair of floor standing speakers with a sub as well. He asked about the Magnepan 1.7's which he heard in our store on the Pioneer Elite SC-68 running the internal Dac and computer music. What's funny about that setup is he has heard the 1.7's at other places with higher end gear and said they sounded better on the Pioneer then everything else he has heard. He said" I didn't even really care for the 1.7's and thought my 3.6's where a way better speaker everywhere". "Now that I have heard them on this Pioneer , I can't believe how good they sound". "That is a A/V receiver right?". I smiled in our store and showed him that we where wired to it and now to a secret stack of amps. He liked the sound so much he wanted to buy the 1.7's. Well back in his room I told him "yes the 1.7's would probably work slightly better in this room but still not a great location for them. They will have the same issues the 3.6's will have. Not to mention the 3.6's are a better sounding speaker IMO".
So today I'm gonna go over our speaker inventory and see if I can come up with a suitable solution to his small room problem. He mentioned he listened to the Definitive Technology Mythos STS and both him and his wife liked them. As good as they are I'm not really sure it's the right move for him. Yes they are fantastic but he's got 3.6's which IMO are a better musical speaker just not in that room. I might have to bring over a few different things to see what I can get to sound right. I have a Killer pair of Revel M106 Bookshelf speakers that I'm think might be the magic. I also have a killer pair of Ultimate foundations loaded with lead that I think will really rock him. I also have a very nice Velodyne MiniV that would fill out the bottom end. We are also picking up REL which is a huge bonus for me as I love REL subs. I also think they are slightly more musical then the Matching Velodyne's. Not by much but they seem to blend in just a tad bit better. For theater they lack and the Velodyne's are a much better double duty sub but in this system I think one just might be the exact piece I need to surpass the sound of the 3.6's and knock his socks off.
Dan
My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time.
My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time.
Post edited by mantis on
Comments
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Revel bookies....I dig them alot. Along with their B15 subs. Don't discount a Revel subwoofer either Dan, they are every bit as good as a Velo. Since this guy has hardwood floors, you may have to dive into room treatments to get the Maggies to work well along with feeding them some quality power. Is this a music only room ?
How open is this guy to scraping everything he has and redoing it all ? Seems to me you could knock his socks off with whats available to you. I would personally still amp up the bigger Maggies, the Pioneer receiver while good as it is, still needs more to handle the big Mags.HT SYSTEM-
Sony 850c 4k
Pioneer elite vhx 21
Sony 4k BRP
SVS SB-2000
Polk Sig. 20's
Polk FX500 surrounds
Cables-
Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable
Kitchen
Sonos zp90
Grant Fidelity tube dac
B&k 1420
lsi 9's -
The question is, what does the owner think about the sound he's getting in the new room?If you can't hear a difference, don't waste your money.
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Wouldn't getting some good acoustic treatments be a preferred route prior to scrapping the current system?DKG999
HT System: LSi9, LSiCx2, LSiFX, LSi7, SVS 20-39 PC+, B&K 507.s2 AVR, B&K Ref 125.2, Tripplite LCR-2400, Cambridge 650BD, Signal Cable PC/SC, BJC IC, Samsung 55" LED
Music System: Magnepan 1.6QR, SVS SB12+, ARC pre, Parasound HCA1500 vertically bi-amped, Jolida CDP, Pro-Ject RM5.1SE TT, Pro-Ject TubeBox SE phono pre, SBT, PS Audio DLIII DAC -
If the system sounded good to the owner in another room, then it's not the system. It's the acoustics. If he is going to spend money, let it be with an acoustician or room treatments. There's no reason to reinvent the wheel here. This customers new room, from the sounds of it, has a plethora of different acoustical nightmares to contend with.
Tom~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~ -
Get a thick **** rug and see what that does. Doesn't have to be pretty she can pick a nice one later. Put a line of pillows along wall on the floor opposite the rig. My buddy had lath walls and wood floors. It was like the bass was off and the treble was pinned in that room. Then one day his wife bought a rug and they sleep on the floor that night. When I came over we shoved the pillows out of the way to listen. It was amazing to a point we stood there just looking at each other. If nothing else it will tell you whether or not to explore acoustic panels/trapsToo much **** to list....
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....are you just having a BAD "ear" day???? any measurements? What were their thoughts? Still love my Maggie's.....MG I's.
Was the room lacking furniture and STUFF? The way they will live. -
The first thing I told him is to at least go with a area rug to soften up the room. Hardwood floors are the worse with a audio system. The Maggies are just way to big and close to you to really open up. The Denon amp is new and replaced a set of Musical Fidelity gear that drove the Maggies n the old house. I feel it was a bad move.Revel bookies....I dig them alot. Along with their B15 subs. Don't discount a Revel subwoofer either Dan, they are every bit as good as a Velo. Since this guy has hardwood floors, you may have to dive into room treatments to get the Maggies to work well along with feeding them some quality power. Is this a music only room ?
How open is this guy to scraping everything he has and redoing it all ? Seems to me you could knock his socks off with whats available to you. I would personally still amp up the bigger Maggies, the Pioneer receiver while good as it is, still needs more to handle the big Mags.
Revel makes wonderful Subs and would consider spec'ing one in his room.Dan
My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time. -
He's not happy with it and has asked about new speakers that would fit in this room many times. It's how I met him , he came into my store and starting telling me about his issues with his new house and audio room.The question is, what does the owner think about the sound he's getting in the new room?Dan
My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time. -
Room acoustics are always a part of all my 2 channel system spec's. His room could use a few traps and some first order corrections.Wouldn't getting some good acoustic treatments be a preferred route prior to scrapping the current system?Dan
My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time. -
I should of taken some pic's as this room to me sucks for what he wants to do with it. I'm also considering asking him if there is a spare bedroom that we could take the system to.If the system sounded good to the owner in another room, then it's not the system. It's the acoustics. If he is going to spend money, let it be with an acoustician or room treatments. There's no reason to reinvent the wheel here. This customers new room, from the sounds of it, has a plethora of different acoustical nightmares to contend with.
Tom
I also think he wants new speakers as he has had the Maggies for many years and wants something new , this is a good time to spec the right speakers for this problem room.Dan
My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time. -
O I had a very bad EAR day de to listening to that system. Don't need to measure anything at this time as the room is so far from being right I gotta fix some known issues first then sweep the room for a full tuning. We got to get the right system in there before anything else. It's just a bad room with a nice system in it.....are you just having a BAD "ear" day???? any measurements? What were their thoughts? Still love my Maggie's.....MG I's.
Was the room lacking furniture and STUFF? The way they will live.Dan
My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time. -
What about some SM65's?I refuse to argue with idiots, because people can't tell the DIFFERENCE!
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When he comes in , I can demo them. I think the Revels are better. The SM's are a very nice huge bookshelf speaker with great bass and nice clarity. I very nice addition to the Def Tech line up. I really wish they would have offered the entire line in real wood colors not just black like everything else. They have white is the only other color they offer anything else in and thats extremely limited. I wouldn't even mind some cool colors like blue , red , yellow etc like Totem.What about some SM65's?Dan
My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time.
