Amp installation kit

Kschultz76

And the saga of questions from the newbie continues...........

I'm choosing an amp intall kit for setting up my new 4 channel amp, which will be one of the following(depending on what my finace decides to/can afford to buy):

Rockford Fosgate 551x 70x4 @ 4 RMS
Hifonics Zeus 6400 85x4 @4 RMS
Hifonics Apollo Son of Olympus 75x4 @ 4 RMS

I have an existing amp that is 200x1 RMS @ 4 running a 4 ohm sub. My plan is to run a main power feed and use a fused dist. block in the trunk to split the power. With that in mind, the following Phoenix Gold install kit seems to be the best deal to me:

Phoenix Gold Tantrum TSX4404

It seems to include everything I need. After adding up the cost of individual pieces it comes out much cheaper to purchase a kit like this for $79.95.

Any thoughts, facts, or opinions on this?

Jstas

It's always cheaper to purchase a kit because they do not use thier top end stuff in them. For the most part, the power cables and turn on leads are sufficient to work with even some high-end stuff. However, the thing you have to watch for is the RCA (interconnect) cables) and sometimes the fuse holder. Cheap fuse holders don't always work as planned and water and dirt can get into the fuse holder and cause a problem. But that is not a significant worry.

The RCA thing is though. RCA cables, in any application home or automotive, are of the utmost importance. Most kits come with a bottom-line interconnect which, while it isn't junk, is very far from the best and probably not worth using. I would spend some extra cash (gonna be a couple hundred probably) and get some StreetWires ZeroNoise RCA cables. I recommend the ZN6.0 models but they are expensive and not always within reach for a budget. However, the mid-line (I think it's ZN3.5?) will work just fine.

The other thing is speaker wire. The 16 guage that comes with that kit will work but, IMO, is much too small. With the amount of power you are running, I would not go lower than 14 guage and would prefer 12 guage speaker wire. It is expensive but I'd rather have the beefier wire because of the long stretches from the amps to the speakers. You will lose signal strength and can pick up interference with a wire that is not large enough. I am going to recommend wires from Scosche, StreetWires or Monster Cable for the speaker wires. I woulr prefer to see you get some twisted pair speaker wire or even the braided stuff with the 3rd grounded core but that is not always in the budget either. A roll of decent StreetWires 12 guage speaker wire would be just fine and suit your purposes well.

You have a very nice setup for yourself there. I'd hate to see you ruin it or soured on it because of problems caused by wire that didn't perform on the level of your equipment.

PoweredByDodge

i'll agree with all of that... but chime in with that I've used the cheapest terminal ends i could find when at all possible... good wire.. cheap ends... kinda **** backward but its been allright for me up to now.

far as the speaker wire gauge -- for up to 100 x 4 16 gauge should be plenty fine in my opinion.

i'm running like 200 x 2 through 16 gauge over about a 10 to 12 foot run. haven't had trouble with it in the least.

is it the smartest thing? nope... i should be running like 14 or 12 gauge... but... i was lazy.

none the less i think 16 is fine for up to 100 watts.

Systems

Circuit City has a Tsunami wiring kit without the RCA's for $50 or so. Then you go to Best Buy and go into the Home Audio section and get standard Monster Cable at $17 for 18 feet. I know what youre saying. "Wait! This is home audio and its cheap! Car sudio wire is like $50 for 10 feet! It must suck!" Nah. The standard Monster Cable is copper shielded, has gold plated ends and is corrosion resistant. That aint bad and especially considering its 1/4 of the price its hard to resist. Its what Ive used for years and I dont have a hint of noise in my speakers. Check em out and see what ya think.

Kschultz76

WOW, thanks for all that info guys. Guess I have some more thinking and planning to do. Good thing I've got sometime between now and when I get the amp to figure this all out.

At this point my finace thinks I've become an obsessed and crazed lunatic over car audio.......but I guess if I was that wouldn't be all bad....hehe.

Anyone recommend any good places to get good prices on this stuff? I've mostly been looking at Sounddomain.

Kevin

Jstas

Originally posted by MacLeod
Circuit City has a Tsunami wiring kit without the RCA's for $50 or so. Then you go to Best Buy and go into the Home Audio section and get standard Monster Cable at $17 for 18 feet. I know what youre saying. "Wait! This is home audio and its cheap! Car sudio wire is like $50 for 10 feet! It must suck!" Nah. The standard Monster Cable is copper shielded, has gold plated ends and is corrosion resistant. That aint bad and especially considering its 1/4 of the price its hard to resist. Its what Ive used for years and I dont have a hint of noise in my speakers. Check em out and see what ya think.

Um, no, it is not the same stuff. Sheilding wise and wire quality wise maybe but otherwise, it isn't. Home audio stuff is not made to stand up to things liek gasoline, oil and grease or road salt, asphalt tar, car exhaust and other fun stuff. Not to mention the excessive temperature differences from sub-freezing to 100+ degrees in some cases. Home audio wire doesn't have to deal with that kind of stuff so they don't have to use things like polypropolene insulation and butyl rubber terminal guards.

Go ahead and use it if you want but I always advise against it. I have seen whata couple of year in a car door will do to home audio wire. It gets brittle and cracked where as car stereo stuff stay pliable and flexible. IMO, use the right tool for the job. Leave the home audio wire to home audio.

Kschultz76

I would be very afraid to use any home audio wiring in my car for all the reasons you listed Jstas. I'm sure that MacLeod has a valid point about cost, and has had a positive experience with it, but I don't want to take a chance for the 20 bucks it might save me.

Now I just have to rethink my budget, and reconsider some of my planning to try and afford some of the better wiring you suggested. I prolly will have to settle for middle of the road, top of the line would be way out of budget, and I'm not really the kinda guy who likes to use low cost parts. If I wasn't interested in good quality and paying for I wouldn't be using Polk speakers anyway, right?

-Kevin

Jstas

The mid-line stuff isn't expensive enough to warrant rethinking a budget. It's usually about 30 dollars a pair at a place like sounddomain.com. The expensive ones will top 80 bucks a pari. Then there are the ones that are flat out insanely priced and will go for 150 and up beyong 300 a pair. Do you need something that expensive? It's been debated for years. Would I spend my money on it? No. The most I would spend is 300 on ALL of the wires I needed. Do you have to spend even that much? No way! I didn't either! You can get good, quality interconnects for about $100 and that would be for wiring a pair of amps.

MTXMAN

I'd check the Street wires at www.mitekfactoryoutlet.com for all your wiring needs, they've got great prices and it's some great stuff too.

Systems

I agree that home audio wire is tougher than car audio wire just that I have never thought it necessary to use it. Ive been piddling in car audio since 1988 and have never seen home audio wire become brittle or crack or anything else. Back before I knew better I ran the cheapo, plain jane, red & white RCA from Radio Shack and although I had more junk noise than a New York subway, I never had a problem with the wire itself being damaged. Im not saying it never happened cause I sure dont know everything, its just been my experience that a good, quality home audio wire works just fine. Monster Cable is a high quality wire and even their cheapest offering is well made.

Again, Im not saying it never happens or that home wire is better, just that unless youre running your RCAs along the outside of your ride, I dont see them having too much trouble.

Kschultz76

Hey guys, looked at some interconnects out there and have discovered that the Streetwires ZN 3.5's are just way outta budget. I can afford the Streetwires ZN 2.0's........would they be acceptable, or would there be a better alternative in the 20-30 buck per set(16-20ft) price range?

Thanks for the link MTXMAN, so far their prices are a bit better.

-Kevin

Kschultz76

Anyone have any thoughts on Stinger products? Found what looks like some good deals on Stinger stuff at ebay.......Helix RCA's, power wire, fused dist. blocks. Let me know your thoughts....

sntnsupermen131

the 2.0s should do fine
as far as stinger goes, i use one of their distro blocks in my truck without a problem, im not sure about their rca's, but im VERY picky about rca's...
for power wire, by far your best bet is going to be www.knukonceptz.com, they have quality grade power wire for very cheap, they dont have much insulation, but i havent had a problem yet and thats the only power wire i use
-Cody

Jstas

I agree, the ZN 2.0's will be just peachy! I use them in my girlfriend's car and have no noise problems at all. They a large step up from teh cheapy ones that come with amp kits.


One thing though, DO NOT throw out anything extra or un-used from the amp kit! You never known when you may need to use something from it! It's always good to have spare speaker grilles, mounting screws, mounting brackets and other hardaware, extra lengths or wiring, spare patch cables and whatever else. Even carpeting is good to save. If you tear the carpeting on a box, you can cut a square and cut out the tear in the carpet and glue the square in. Let it dry and rub the fibers with a brush and you won't be able to tell it is there.

I have a cardboard box, squirreled away in teh attic, that has all the spare parts and un-used stuff just sitting there collecting dust. Merely for the day that it is needed.

sntnsupermen131

lol, i have one of those card board boxes too, has wiring as small as 22awg to as big as 1/0awg
lol
whenever a friend needs help with something audio my trusty car audio box comes with me
cept mines in the closet
lol
glad to know im not the only one
-Cody

Kschultz76

HEHE.....I have a similiar box with all of computer parts in it and another one with audio stuff in it too.....funny how those things work.

Just got my new EX369's from Crutchfield.....god damn they LOOK like nice speakers, definately better constructed then my Alpines(which I thought were very good speakers)! Now I have to decide if I want to put them before I get my amp or wait.

Another wiring question for you. On my EX3550 comps they came with speaker wire to run from the mid's to the crossover, can I replace that with higher gauge wire, and should I? The tweeters have the same thin wire already attached, should I cut it close to the tweeter and splice it to heavier wire to run from the crossover? How close does the crossover have to be to the speakers? Is it ok to put the crossover inside the door?

Thanks
Kevin

sntnsupermen131

if you do install the EX's, make sure not to turn them so loud to where they distort, contrary to popular belief, you have about 10x mor chance of blowing them while running them off your head unit than running them off an amp
i wouldnt cut the wire and replace it
that short piece of speaker wire isnt going to hurt anything, and if you cut it off, and soder another piece off, and that piece breaks, then u can be screwed if its too short
id leave it on, i promise it wont make a difference
as far as how close it has to be
theres no rule of thumb, but as close as you can get it
my tweeter if about 3 ft away from my crossover
and its ok to mount them in your doors yes, just stay away from places where noise can get inducted(power windows/doors) and sources of heat
-Cody

PoweredByDodge

well for speaker wire -- i think the home audio **** and car audio shti is about the same... i've never used anything of the quality of which you speak of though.

decent but cheap 'car audio' speaker wire can be had from sounddomain for like 20 cents a foot -- stinger makes it... streetwires is about 25 cents a foot -- thats for 16 gauge copper with the heavy jacket.

my favorite car wire however is still mosnter cable XP 15 gauge home audio wire.


rca patch cables --- stinger makes a fine cable! streetwires ZN 2's are good ... 3.5's are much much better but money doesn't grow on trees. I don't know how you are with soldering but you may also wanna think about this.

Lightning Audio makes BULK wire -- it is their Strike series patch cable... sick **** thin casing, all 4 wires are twisted within each other to cancel otu noise.. its got an aluminum shield, as well as severl jackets of plastic shielding, all encased in a nice heavy duty blue rubber sheath -- and its like friggin cheap.... i think its like a dollar a foot or less... i dunno.. i dotn rememeber, btu it was SICK CHEAP. i got some basic plane jane RCA terminals from radio shack for 2 bucks a pair soldered them on... used about 3 or 4 sleeves of heat shrink tubing to make a nice "bendy end" at the ends and it was done. used it for the 15 foot extentions we needed in my girlfriend's car -- she had Zero Noise 5.0's going to under the seats but wanted everything moved to the trunk.. money was tight, and sounddomain had a 1 month backorder on the stingers as well as the streetwires 2.0's, so i made my own with the lightning audio and i'll tell you i was very very very impressed with the quality of a "cheap ****" wire.

delvryboy

wire is wire

walmart has a dual amp 4awg kit made by Sorche...under 25 bucks

you may choose to upgrade the rca's...but that is entirely up to you

PoweredByDodge

wire is not wire.

copper wire...

silver electroplated copper wire...

heavy duty weather(and chemical) resistant jacketed wire of either of the above variety.

shielded wire...

RCA patch cables with inductors in the terminals for the purpose of cancelling out noise...

twisted pair, twist count per inch...

insulated twisted pair...

types of insulation... ceramic / plastic / aluminum... etc.

air tight jacket versus semi-permeable jacket (rust / corrosion)....

strand count of wire...

4 gauge is not the same as any 4 gauge.
--- you can get 4 gauge with a high strand count or a low strand count or anything in between.
........... electricity is not conducted (at least not well at all) through the middle of a solid wire, electrons travel best on the "outside skin" of a solid piece of metal (strand of wire).
...........so a 4 gauge wire with say maybe i dunno, 1000 thin strands will conduct more current, and more efficiently, than a 4 gauge wire with 250 fatter strands.
..........a heavy jacket is sometimes better than a thin one due to getting yanked around the car, through the firewall, etc etc.


i could go on, but why .... wire is not wire.

delvryboy

Originally posted by PoweredByDodge
wire is not wire.

copper wire...

silver electroplated copper wire...

heavy duty weather(and chemical) resistant jacketed wire of either of the above variety.

shielded wire...

RCA patch cables with inductors in the terminals for the purpose of cancelling out noise...

twisted pair, twist count per inch...

insulated twisted pair...

types of insulation... ceramic / plastic / aluminum... etc.

air tight jacket versus semi-permeable jacket (rust / corrosion)....

strand count of wire...

4 gauge is not the same as any 4 gauge.
--- you can get 4 gauge with a high strand count or a low strand count or anything in between.
........... electricity is not conducted (at least not well at all) through the middle of a solid wire, electrons travel best on the "outside skin" of a solid piece of metal (strand of wire).
...........so a 4 gauge wire with say maybe i dunno, 1000 thin strands will conduct more current, and more efficiently, than a 4 gauge wire with 250 fatter strands.
..........a heavy jacket is sometimes better than a thin one due to getting yanked around the car, through the firewall, etc etc.


i could go on, but why .... wire is not wire.

basic myths....we could go on and on about this...this is something that will be debated for infinity....however...the only thing strand count does for wire is dictate it's flexability....a solid core wire will pass current with the least amount of resistance...but at the piont of ) flexability

PoweredByDodge

myths? -- would u like to debate physics? i'd be happy to... however if you would not like to then i'll save you the banter.

i can back it all up, but that is your choice if you'd like the information or not -- its a lot of typing and i wont do it unless you really care about the topic.

Kschultz76

WOW.....guess I started a hell of a debate with this post. I'm still struggling with deciding what wires to purchase.......As much as I want to install the "good" stuff, i'm havin a real hard time getting over the expense of it all......that 80 dollar wiring kit from Phoenix Gold is looking better and better.....Maybe I'll purchase that and replace the rca's in it with better ones......

I hate decisions........they suck.

-Kevin

Kschultz76

Ok, I just orderd off of Ebay (2) 20ft Streetwires ZN2.0 rca's, and 50ft of Streetwires Ultra Cable 12ga. Does that sound ok to everyone? I hope so cause I can't return it now!!

So now I just have to figure out what I'm going to purchase as far as supplies for getting power to the amp. I know that wire isn't just wire, and fuses and fuse holders aren't just fuses and fuse holders. That said, would it be terrible if to make things affordable I got a Phoenix Gold 4ga multi amp power only kit for $70 that came with power and ground wire, fused dist block, and a midi fuse holder?

-Kevin

Jstas

The RCA's and speaker wire should be just fine! I wouldn't even think of telling you that you didn't do good!

As far as he amp kit goes, the 70 dollar kit is probably the best way to go. All the stuff in that kit would end up costing you 100 or more if you bought it all seperatly. I'd go with the 70 dollar kit and call it a day!

delvryboy

Originally posted by PoweredByDodge
myths? -- would u like to debate physics? i'd be happy to... however if you would not like to then i'll save you the banter.

i can back it all up, but that is your choice if you'd like the information or not -- its a lot of typing and i wont do it unless you really care about the topic.

lets put it this way...i am not talking some cheap stiff home depot wire...the sorche kit contains 16ft of 4awg OFHC cpper wire with a 1667 strand count for under 25 bucks....the other kits do not offer anything different than that for a higher price....it can also be bought in bulk for under a $1.40 a foot....the only downside to this wire is it comes in only red and black....in my case my trunk is wired in blue so i chose to go with stinger....my 1/0 is heavy duty truck wire...OFC, 4712 strand count(higher than most;) ) and oil resistant....comes in a dull black...but it's hidden and ran me $1.20 a foot...honestly you can't beat that....when you buy monster cable...you pay for the name

as stated above...fuses are not the same...i would not use off-brand fuses...however, tsunami makes some grea ANL fuses and can be had for a decent price

some will say RCA's don't matter and will fight it to the end...i however, disagree and perfer foil shielded twisted type RCA's

some times it works out better to spend your money wisely...especially in the world of DIY....which it looks to me is what this is all about

Darvex.com is a great internet store that deals in Stinger...best prices and some of the best customer service and return policies that i have ever encountered on the web....check it out

just because the 4awg RF kit at CC or BB costs $100...doesn't mean it is the best there is....it also does not mean that if you pay less you are getting less

sntnsupermen131

delvry boy, you should check out www.knukonceptz.com, they have great power wire for pretty damn cheap, all the power wire in my truck is from them, they have multiple colors, sizes, plus about any wiring accessory you could need, but they dont have a big selection of distro blocks
-Cody

MacLeod

Originally posted by PoweredByDodge
wire is not wire.

copper wire...

silver electroplated copper wire...

heavy duty weather(and chemical) resistant jacketed wire of either of the above variety.

shielded wire...

RCA patch cables with inductors in the terminals for the purpose of cancelling out noise...

twisted pair, twist count per inch...

insulated twisted pair...

types of insulation... ceramic / plastic / aluminum... etc.

air tight jacket versus semi-permeable jacket (rust / corrosion)....

strand count of wire...

4 gauge is not the same as any 4 gauge.
--- you can get 4 gauge with a high strand count or a low strand count or anything in between.
........... electricity is not conducted (at least not well at all) through the middle of a solid wire, electrons travel best on the "outside skin" of a solid piece of metal (strand of wire).
...........so a 4 gauge wire with say maybe i dunno, 1000 thin strands will conduct more current, and more efficiently, than a 4 gauge wire with 250 fatter strands.
..........a heavy jacket is sometimes better than a thin one due to getting yanked around the car, through the firewall, etc etc.


i could go on, but why .... wire is not wire.

I never knew that one. I always thought power wire was power wire too. I never knew the performance difference of the stiff, 3 strand power wire you buy at Radio Shack and the hair like super fine, 5 billion strand Tsunami wire I use now.

What about in the RCA field. I have always used a good quality home audio cable (Monster usually). I know they arent as durable physically as car audio stuff but is there a performance difference as well or rather enough of difference to warrant payng twice as much?

I thirst for knowledge!

delvryboy

Originally posted by sntnsupermen131
delvry boy, you should check out www.knukonceptz.com, they have great power wire for pretty damn cheap, all the power wire in my truck is from them, they have multiple colors, sizes, plus about any wiring accessory you could need, but they dont have a big selection of distro blocks
-Cody

yes indeed....i completely forgot about them:D

PoweredByDodge

Originally posted by delvryboy
lets put it this way...i am not talking some cheap stiff home depot wire...the sorche kit contains 16ft of 4awg OFHC cpper wire with a 1667 strand count for under 25 bucks....the other kits do not offer anything different than that for a higher price....it can also be bought in bulk for under a $1.40 a foot....the only downside to this wire is it comes in only red and black....in my case my trunk is wired in blue so i chose to go with stinger....my 1/0 is heavy duty truck wire...OFC, 4712 strand count(higher than most;) ) and oil resistant....comes in a dull black...but it's hidden and ran me $1.20 a foot...honestly you can't beat that....when you buy monster cable...you pay for the name

delvryboy --->

.... ahhhh... there ya go. that being said, i'll agree with you.

I have had some people say that welding cable and some of this stuff that they use to hold up like garage doors and **** is "just as good -- wire is wire"... now not everyone is that extremely retarded, but some are close.

1,000 some odd strand 4 gauge is plenty fine... 800 some odd strand is plenty fine!.

... but that 25 strand or whatever **** that the factory puts on the vehicles running from the stock alt to the battery fuse box is a bunch of dog **** compared to "real" wire. -- and i think u'll agree w/ me on that.

I've been buying mostly Stinger power wire myself lately -- K.K. I've yet to buy anything from, mostly stick to sounddomain, they're fairly quick... Think we paid like a buck a foot for 4 gauge for my now ex-girlfriend's car. I got screwed on 0 gauge for my truck... I had yet to discover sounddomain had it for 3.00 a foot... and yet to discover K. K. as a result i paid 5.50 a foot at crutchfield... like a damned idiot -- for about 40 some odd feet of it!

decent twisted foil wrapped patch cables are about the same across the board... (i mean there's the "better" stuff... but as far as mid grade stuff goes, its all about the same) ...but believe it or not, there are some kits that actually come with plain jane non insulated, non twisted RCA's. that's just terrifying...lol.

Macleod --->

See here's the problem... I don't know much about home audio RCA's... but I might be able to do it this way... I'll tell you the things that I find important in a good car audio RCA cable... and then you can compare that to what the home audio stuff your looking at has.. if the features match up and its just a matter of having differnet grade rubber jackets... then I think for you it may not matter and as long as you're not pouring gasoline on them don't worry about it...

1- twisted pair construction: the positive and negative leads of an RCA should be twisted like a candy cane's red and white stripes so as that each lead 'picks up' equal interference... the result is an interference 'push left' coupled with an interfernece 'push right'... which leaves us with 'zero' interference. at least in theory -- it's not a perfect design, as with anythign it's not bulletproof, but most everyone has found it to help... even non-insulated twisted pair wire tends to hold up better than insulated non-twisted wire.

2- metal foil (i think its aluminum, but i am not sure... probably is) insulation. they wrap the wire up the way you'd roll a cigarette (or joint depending on whether you were born in the late 60's or not). this helps to shield out interference ... what it does it IT, instead of the signal leads inside, pick up the interference and serve as virtual ground out.

3- heavy grade rubber jacket -- to prevent kinks and bends and snaps and whatever.

... an added bonus is an inductor in the ends of the leads... streetwires zn 5 series used this to help rub out anything that got through everything else.

... another added bonus is a braided nylon jacket over the foil jacket, inside the rubber jacket... this adds strength -- basically its like a damn rope then... you can hang yourself with it and it's nto gonna be damaged.

Usually... in most RCA's you buy for the car... you'll get either option 1 or 2, not both. If you get both, you've got a very nice RCA then.

Streetwires Low Noise 2.0's are not twisted pair, they are just shielded... the Zero Noise 2.0's I believe are just twisted not shielded... the Zero noise 3.5's are HYPER-twisted (which means its more twists per inch and also the left and right channels are twisted together) but not shielded... and the 6.0's are hyper twisted, and wrapped in a nylon jacket (no more inductor).

The last Streetwires to have foil shields and twisted pair construction were the 3.0's (yellows) and the 5.0's (whites).

However I believe stinger makes Dream Series RCA's now that have both of those traits.

I've used the 3.5's in the caddy with luck -- **** i mean i ran them literally zip tied and taped to the 2 gauge power wire all the way from the kick panel to the trunk for christ sake!

However those lightning audio strike bulk cable really made me happy and i know why becuase it's insulated and twisted pair. i mean its cheap -- for the price its probably as good or better than the 3.5 cable.

i wouldn't waste my money on 6.0 at this point... i'd buy old 5's... to this day i think its the best cable made for car audio that was not disgustingly beyond my price range (its like 70 bucks for a 6 foot run).

sntnsupermen131

i bought a 12' or 16'(i think 16') of the SW 5.0s about 6 months ago
the ONLY place i could find them that long was crutchfield, they were $100, and they told me it was the last one they had in stock
i want 2 more, but not ready to fork out the cash yet though
even then, i dont think id be able to find them
-Cody