The truth about matching centers to fronts?
First let me thank everyone who's posted info and reviews on different speakers on this forum. Based on what I've read (and my budget) I just put in an order today on a pair of TSI400's for my new HT fronts (replacing a really cheap and small and old pair of Polk R1 bookshelfs). I'm really looking forward to the extra power and definition that the TSIs will deliver. Now, of course, I have to think about how well balanced the system is.
Evidently, the best matching current center for the new fronts would be the CS10 or CS20. However, only a couple-three years ago I purchased the CSi3 center channel, which I've been very happy with. So, my question today is: Would there be a noticeable difference between the CSi3 and either/both of these newer models? I seriously doubt it. The specs on the CSi3 and CS10 are very close, with maybe the 'sensitivity' rating being the biggest difference (89 for the CSi3 vs 91 for the CS10). But I have a hard time believing that my enjoyment of my system would be worth the extra expense.
By the way, I'm running a Sony AVR, the STR-DH810, with 110 watts per channel, and the Polk PSW110 sub. Interested in all thoughts. Thank you!
Evidently, the best matching current center for the new fronts would be the CS10 or CS20. However, only a couple-three years ago I purchased the CSi3 center channel, which I've been very happy with. So, my question today is: Would there be a noticeable difference between the CSi3 and either/both of these newer models? I seriously doubt it. The specs on the CSi3 and CS10 are very close, with maybe the 'sensitivity' rating being the biggest difference (89 for the CSi3 vs 91 for the CS10). But I have a hard time believing that my enjoyment of my system would be worth the extra expense.
By the way, I'm running a Sony AVR, the STR-DH810, with 110 watts per channel, and the Polk PSW110 sub. Interested in all thoughts. Thank you!
Carlos
Audio: Polk LS70
Home Theater: Polk TSI 400 Fronts, CS10 center, R1 surrounds, PSW110 subwoofer
Post edited by CarlosD on
Comments
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Let your ears be the judge. If you like it and it sounds good to you keep it. If not, then get a matching center. None of my speakers match and I think my system sounds great. There are no hard fast rules to the enjoyment of audio. Let your ears and common sense be your guide.Marantz AV-7705 PrePro, Classé 5 channel 200wpc Amp, Oppo 103 BluRay, Rotel RCD-1072 CDP, Sony XBR-49X800E TV, Polk S60 Main Speakers, Polk ES30 Center Channel, Polk S15 Surround Speakers SVS SB12-NSD x2
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Timbre matching, Google it.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
Another thing to look for is if the speakers cones and woofers are cut from the same speaker fabric
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Thanks folks.
Re the timbre-matching comment, I should have mentioned that I'm not a stranger to the concept. In fact, I should have made this text (from the vintage products page for the CSi3) part of the original post: "Timbre-matched to fit into any Polk Audio home theater or multi-channel music system for a more realistic, more seamless surround sound environment." No doubt that marketing copy was written before the TSI line had hit the market. Could this line be so different that the CSi3 claim no longer applies?
Cfrizz, I think I'm with you. But the CS10 is only $110 right now in a few places. Hmmm...
Carlos
Audio: Polk LS70
Home Theater: Polk TSI 400 Fronts, CS10 center, R1 surrounds, PSW110 subwoofer -
I never ever upgrade any speakers without matching them to the rest of my system.If I buy new fronts then I also buy the matching center and sell off the old one.
In your case here I'm willing to bet it's very close to being right. If thats good enough for you, then stick with it.Dan
My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time. -
I agree with all answers here.
I was once in the same boat as you as I upgraded my Monitors to RTiA's. I obtained my A9's while still using the CS2. I was under the impression that it was going to be "good enough" or "close enough".
During a certain movie, the dialog traveled from the L to C to R speakers with three different speakers. The difference was clear as a bell. When I purchased the CSiA6, I played the movie again and then fully understood the importance of timbre matching.
Your mileage may vary.
One other point I'd like make, it would behoove you to audition the CS10 next to the CS20. Just because it's cheaper doesn't make it a better deal.
I demoed them side by side and the CS20 left the CS10 sound like it was weak and straining to keep up. Your Center channel is the "strong" link in your speaker system, I wouldn't skimp out on it, go big.Source: BRP Panasonic UB9000, CDP Emotiva ERC3 - Display: LG OLED EVO 83 C3 - Pre/Pro: Marantz 8802A - Amplification: Emotiva XPA-DR3, XPA-2 x 2, XPA-6, Speakers, Mains/2ch-Focal Kanta No2's, C-LSiM706, S-702F/X, RS-RTiA9's, WS-RTiA9's, FH-RTiA3's, Subs - Epik Empire x 2
Cables: AudioQuest McKenzie XLR's/CDP/Amp, Carbon 48/BRP, Forest 48/Display, 2 channel speaker cable: Furutech FS Alpha 36 12AWG PCOCC Single Crystal (Douglas Connection)
EXPERIENCE: next to nothing, but I sure enjoy audio and video MY OPINION OF THIS HOBBY: I may not be a smart man, but I know what quicksand is.
When I was young, I was Superman but now that old age has gotten the best of me I'm only Batman -
Well, I've recently experimented with mixing Pioneer CS-G203 front speakers with a Polk Audio CSM center speaker and Polk Audio Monitor 40 surround speakers, plus a Polk Audio PSW110 subwoofer.
All I did was a calibrate each speaker to near a 75 dBC peak level. Sounds very good to me. Also, due to the CS-G203 speakers having a range down to 40 Hz, I am using a 50 Hz crossover rather than an 80 Hz crossover often recommended by home theater settings. I've already confirmed both the CSM and Monitor 40's can reproduce bass down to 40 Hz as well, so a 50 Hz crossover is not unreasonable.
The only thing left is to recalibrate the subwoofer to blend in with the CS-G203 front speakers, but that is easily done since I go for the subtle effect of the subwoofer being a natural rolloff from the main speakers.
Yours may vary, but I don't find tambre matching as valuable as channel volume matching calibration.
Others may vary in their opinions, of course. -
There's a thread on my thoughts about this somewhere... To summarize, I had a non-timbre-matched center with my system, a Polk CS350LS, with Infinity Overture 1 fronts. In order to "correct" this "error", I purchased an Infinity CC-3 center channel, which uses the same drivers as the Overture series. After auditioning the two, I sold the CC-3 and put the CS350LS back into service, as it was obviously the superior-sounding center channel, despite the lack of timbre-matching. Matched or not, it sounded 1000% better.
So IMO, timbre-matching is not anywhere near as important as having a high-quality center channel. That said, going from a CSi3 to a CS10 seems more like a sideways move than an upgrade, so it may be more a question of "why not." A CS20 might be a slight upgrade.
RT-12, CS350-LS, PSW-300, Infinity Overture 1, Monoprice RC-65i
Adcom GFA-545II, GFA-6000, Outlaw Audio 990, Netgear NeoTV
Denon DCM-460, DMD-1000, Sony BDP-360, Bravia KDL-40Z4100/S
Monster AVL-300, HTS-2500 MKII -
I had a csi5 with tsi400s as my front stage for a while. I was happy with the setup but then eventually came across a good deal on some Rti A7s which timbre match the csi5 and I must say the difference was quite significant to my ears. The front stage just flowed seamlessly with one another. The transitions from left to middle and right just flowed.Front- RTI A7,(powered by ADCOM GFA 5500)
Center- CSI5,
Surrounds- RTI 6 and Rear Surrounds- TS 15.
TV-Panasonic P55ST50
SUB-SVS PB10-NSD and PSW505
Receiver- Yamaha Aventage RX-A2000 -
I have always gone by trying to match your front 3 speakers as closely as possible.
That's not to say you won't get good quality sound from a mix and match setup. It is just to say that having the same drivers, same efficiency, same over all specs for those 3 speakers is going to help blend the entire front soundstage together."Some people find it easier to be conceited rather than correct."
"Unwad those panties and have a good time man. We're all here to help each other, no matter how it might appear." DSkip -
I agree with Syndil, I will take quality over timbre matching any day. In my best set up I use an A7 as a center and run it full range large. I do tend to not mix brands or wide range of qualities on fronts/center though, and I have done many setups.
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I agree with Syndil
That doesn't put you in good company as he doesn't have a clue about all things audio.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
So IMO, timbre-matching is not anywhere near as important as having a high-quality center channel. That said, going from a CSi3 to a CS10 seems more like a sideways move than an upgrade, so it may be more a question of "why not." A CS20 might be a slight upgrade.
High quality components are awesome to have, but IMO, when the sound differs when it travels between the L, C and R channels, it's no longer seamless. That might not be important to some, but I prefer my front stage to have a seamless sound field.Source: BRP Panasonic UB9000, CDP Emotiva ERC3 - Display: LG OLED EVO 83 C3 - Pre/Pro: Marantz 8802A - Amplification: Emotiva XPA-DR3, XPA-2 x 2, XPA-6, Speakers, Mains/2ch-Focal Kanta No2's, C-LSiM706, S-702F/X, RS-RTiA9's, WS-RTiA9's, FH-RTiA3's, Subs - Epik Empire x 2
Cables: AudioQuest McKenzie XLR's/CDP/Amp, Carbon 48/BRP, Forest 48/Display, 2 channel speaker cable: Furutech FS Alpha 36 12AWG PCOCC Single Crystal (Douglas Connection)
EXPERIENCE: next to nothing, but I sure enjoy audio and video MY OPINION OF THIS HOBBY: I may not be a smart man, but I know what quicksand is.
When I was young, I was Superman but now that old age has gotten the best of me I'm only Batman -
I don't use my center when listening to music, so for me it's not an issue. In my system the center is only used when there is a discreet center channel to be heard. I don't do multi-channel stereo or Pro Logic II or any of that. So really it's just used for dialog, and it doesn't matter if it doesn't match my L/R channels perfectly. It's not contributing to the soundstage produced by the L/R channels, it's interrupting it.
RT-12, CS350-LS, PSW-300, Infinity Overture 1, Monoprice RC-65i
Adcom GFA-545II, GFA-6000, Outlaw Audio 990, Netgear NeoTV
Denon DCM-460, DMD-1000, Sony BDP-360, Bravia KDL-40Z4100/S
Monster AVL-300, HTS-2500 MKII -
You shouldn't even respond to this topic.I don't use my center when listening to music, so for me it's not an issue. In my system the center is only used when there is a discreet center channel to be heard. I don't do multi-channel stereo or Pro Logic II or any of that. So really it's just used for dialog, and it doesn't matter if it doesn't match my L/R channels perfectly. It's not contributing to the soundstage produced by the L/R channels, it's interrupting it."He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche -
You see Energene, I told you he doesn't have a clue.Originally Posted by Syndil
Blah, blah, blahPolitical Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
Glad to see I can still get a good "harumph" from the old guard any time I post something that does not fit the perceived status quo.
RT-12, CS350-LS, PSW-300, Infinity Overture 1, Monoprice RC-65i
Adcom GFA-545II, GFA-6000, Outlaw Audio 990, Netgear NeoTV
Denon DCM-460, DMD-1000, Sony BDP-360, Bravia KDL-40Z4100/S
Monster AVL-300, HTS-2500 MKII -
...The specs on the CSi3 and CS10 are very close...
The specs mean nothing in terms of timbre and tone matching....I have a hard time believing that my enjoyment of my system would be worth the extra expense...
It doesn't have to be an extra expense! Find a used CS20, buy it, and try it in your system. See which center YOU like better, then sell the other one! No expense! (or MINIMAL at most)
In this hobby, all that matters is how it sounds to YOU, and you won't know that until you try it. 100 different people will give you 100 different opinions. Screw their opinions! Find out for yourself!2-Channel: PC > Schiit Eitr > Audio Research DAC-8 > Audio Research LS-26 > Pass Labs X-250.5 > Magnepan 3.7's
Living Room: PC > Marantz AV-7703 > Emotiva XPA-5 > Sonus Faber Liuto Towers, Sonus Faber Liuto Center, Sonus Faber Liuto Bookshelves > Dual SVS PC12-Pluses
Office: Phone/Tablet > AudioEngine B1 > McIntosh D100 > Bryston 4B-ST > Polk Audio LSiM-703's -
if you can get a center close to your mains it will work. yeah there will be a slight difference mostly not noticeable. I say this cause i had an all polk system when i started sounded great (RT10's, CS350ls, LS f/x's) As i started to upgrade going through the polk line a few times for the mains i had started to really like the definitive technology speakers (you can see my current setup in my signature) For years i used the CS350ls (which by the way is an awesome center) with my definitives (until i finally had the extra cash for my matching center) it worked great with movies, sacd, dvd-a. the only time i could tell a slight difference in the timbre matching was when i would do a pink noise roll through the speakers.
I would say the biggest problem is when you get a center that is either larger/smaller or completely different than your mains. you get what i always consider the harley-honda-harley effect. as was stated by Geoff4rfc. voices or such going across your front stage being different.
Well there are many opinions on here already and this one is mine. the one thing i really enjoy about this hobby is that, all the opinions. It is ultimately up to you and your ears, budget and so on. best advice i can give,try to think about the big picture and where you would like to be. don't settle cause it is all you can afford at the time, you will only be temporarily satisfied and wish you had just waited for the extra $$ to get the other one. i have to keep this in mind when i want something new (and you always will) so far it has paid off. Sure i chomp at the bit a lot, it took me 2 years to finally pull the trigger on a receiver to replace my old setup from 2004 (glad i waited too).
OK sorry, i babbled for long enough...
On a side note i used the CS350ls for 12 years and sold it for $250. This center channel was truly amazing and was the heart of my speakers, it was my favorite to show off
Speakers:
Definitive BP7001sc mains
Definitive C/L/R 3000 center
Polk RT800i's rears
Definitive supercube I Sub
Audio:
Onkyo TX-NR3010
Emotiva XPA five Gen 3
OPPO BDP-103 CD, SACD, DVD-A
Video:
Panasonic TC-P65ZT60
OPPO BDP-103 Bluray
Directv x's 2 -
Glad to see I can still get a good "harumph" from the old guard any time I post something that does not fit the perceived status quo.
That would be all the time.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
ntculenuff wrote: »you get what i always consider the harley-honda-harley effect. as was stated by Geoff4rfc. voices or such going across your front stage being different.
So what your saying is that your speakers go from being leaky, unreliable 1920s tech to reliable and durable and doing things way better and then back to being leaky and unreliable again?!?!
Sorry...couldn't help myself. Never bought in to the Harley marketing juggernaught and always enjoy poking them with a stick when I can.
But that is actually an excellent analogy."Some people find it easier to be conceited rather than correct."
"Unwad those panties and have a good time man. We're all here to help each other, no matter how it might appear." DSkip -
So what your saying is that your speakers go from being leaky, unreliable 1920s tech to reliable and durable and doing things way better and then back to being leaky and unreliable again?!?!
Sorry...couldn't help myself. Never bought in to the Harley marketing juggernaught and always enjoy poking them with a stick when I can.
But that is actually an excellent analogy.
LOL yeah that. So for you I will re word it Honda-Harley-Honda :biggrin: did find out why they did leak oil though. It was to oil the chain, if there wasn't a dime to quarter size oil drip something was wrong lol. Of course it was a Harley guy that told me :rolleyes:Speakers:
Definitive BP7001sc mains
Definitive C/L/R 3000 center
Polk RT800i's rears
Definitive supercube I Sub
Audio:
Onkyo TX-NR3010
Emotiva XPA five Gen 3
OPPO BDP-103 CD, SACD, DVD-A
Video:
Panasonic TC-P65ZT60
OPPO BDP-103 Bluray
Directv x's 2 -
I don't understand what all the discussion here is about. This is a SIMPLE answer. You want to upgrade your center so as to timbre match the TSI-400s?
Get the CS20 and call it a day! Stay in the series and ALWAYS get the biggest, baddest center within that series. That's the CS-20 in this case!
For Rti-As it would be the CSi-A6 or CSi-5 (of older Rtis!).
cnhCurrently orbiting Bowie's Blackstar.!
Polk Lsi-7s, Def Tech 8" sub, HK 3490, HK HD 990 (CDP/DAC), AKG Q701s
[sig. changed on a monthly basis as I rotate in and out of my stash] -
What he said ^^^^
The center channel in a surround format is the anchor for the whole shebang. Get a good one, or don't use one at all and run phantom. Thats the only 2 options I see.HT SYSTEM-
Sony 850c 4k
Pioneer elite vhx 21
Sony 4k BRP
SVS SB-2000
Polk Sig. 20's
Polk FX500 surrounds
Cables-
Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable
Kitchen
Sonos zp90
Grant Fidelity tube dac
B&k 1420
lsi 9's -
Has anybody used a full range tower as a center like I have?
I really like it and I am not sure I could go down to a center. -
While not exactly related to the current discussion, my HT used to consist of 4 LSi15s and an LSiC. While this worked great, I felt there could be more 'oomph' (technical term) from the center. One day I bought a PSB Synchrony One center, and it dropped right in. I ran setup and everything was still calibrated. Anyway, the PSB center with the LSi15s seemed to my ears to work great.
Later I replaced the front LSi15s with PSB Synchrony One towers, and while it had minimal effect on movie audio, it really improved the music audio in the multi-channel system.Lumin X1 file player, Westminster Labs interconnect cable
Sony XA-5400ES SACD; Pass XP-22 pre; X600.5 amps
Magico S5 MKII Mcast Rose speakers; SPOD spikes
Shunyata Triton v3/Typhon QR on source, Denali 2000 (2) on amps
Shunyata Sigma XLR analog ICs, Sigma speaker cables
Shunyata Sigma HC (2), Sigma Analog, Sigma Digital, Z Anaconda (3) power cables
Mapleshade Samson V.3 four shelf solid maple rack, Micropoint brass footers
Three 20 amp circuits. -
Yes, it's great not having to compromise.Has anybody used a full range tower as a center like I have? ."He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche -
Has anybody used a full range tower as a center like I have?
I really like it and I am not sure I could go down to a center.
That is the best way to go for a perfect front stage. The only problem is the space requirements, it's just not feasible for most. If that is the case then just get the matching center in your speaker line for the next best option."2 Channel & 11.2 HT "Two Channel:Magnepan LRSSchiit Audio Freya S - SS preConsonance Ref 50 - Tube preParasound HALO A21+ 2 channel ampBluesound NODE 2i streameriFi NEO iDSD DAC Oppo BDP-93KEF KC62 sub Home Theater:Full blown 11.2 set up. -
My own experience started with matching centers, then went thru several different fronts but kept the original center.
Most of my listening is 2-channel, so I was not as critical of timbre matching (in the beginning) for a center.
When I did do movie watching or multi-channel listening (mostly for concert videos or cable), I first thought it was good enough.
But over time I settled into a pair of front speakers I like and kept my eye open for a matching center - when a deal came along, I jumped on it and will have to say that timbre matching is important.
You can have speakers that don't match and depending on how critical your ear is the sound can be ok to good, but they must all match to get it 'right'.
However, I will say that my own personal preference for multi-channel music is to pull the center volume down. I've found that when the AVR does its auto-calibration the center volume is too high, imo - the sound is 'mono' with no left/right soundstage separation (for my tastes). So I save two settings: 1 for movies where I let the AVR set the volume levels, 1 for music where I manually lower the center volume to a point where it is filling in the center of the soundstage, but it does not dominate it and destroy L/R imaging.
In the end - let your ears decide what you like, but keep them open for changes!
H9: If you don't trust what you are hearing, then maybe you need to be less invested in a hobby which all the pleasure comes from listening to music. -
I was skeptical of the whole timbre matching thing at first. I was running a CS400i center with my Def Techs and it really was fine for movies because it is a kick **** center channel speaker. When I found a deal on a Def Tech C/L/R 2002, I snatched it up and replaced the CS400i. At first I wasn't impressed because I was used to the CS400i and how dominant the dialog was with movies, but after a while I started to appreciate the seamless sound.
Also, if you listen to music in "ext surround" or 5.1, there is a HUGE difference, especially with 5 ch SACD playback. If you are not timbre matched there, IMHO, it will just sound weird. You wouldn't have two different speakers for stereo music listining right? So what makes multi channel any different?
