Another question on TVs

sachinsood · November 2003

I have been looking at some info on TVs - Analog, HDTV Monitors, HDTV Monitors (with tuners), DLP HDTVs, Plasma and LCD HDTVs.

This is what I am really wanting to get: a widescreen monitor is a MUST. Sony has the XBR series, albeit highly priced. 34" and 40" Widescreen XBRs are both for 2500$.

I was almost set on getting myself a Sony 46" RP HDTV Ready Monitor (Model #KP-46WT510). Then I see the DLP sets and wonder if I could pool in some more money for those (do monthly payments). Then I read about bulb replacements in HDTVs and DLP HDTVs and its back to square one - analog TVs.

I read about bulb/lamp replacements after a few years of use in the case of HDTVs, DLP HDTVs and LCD HDTVs that can cost a lot (around 300-400$ after 5-7 yrs). Analog TVs have the advantage that they dont need such replacements and the picture quality does not get hampered over the years (in most cases). I have seen amazing PQ on a 1983 RCA Analog TV hooked to a satellite receiver box.

Weight of TVs is not much of an issue for me as I got friends who can help out if I have to move to a new place.

I am just confused as to the direction I should take - stick with the analog TVs (great picture quality is always guaranteed with a good brand like Sony, Panasonic or Zenith; widescreen analog TVs too expensive - but widescreen is what I must have), or get a HDTV monitor like the one mentioned above (bulb replacements; picture quality "may not" be as good as compared to analog CRT TV PQ). Also, the Sony 46" Widescreen HDTV costs 1600$ compared to their 34" or 40" Analog XBR Widescreen TV.

I also plan on getting channels through satellite reception irrespective of whether I purchase an analog TV, RP HDTV (w/ or w/o HDTV tuner - w/ tuner being unlikely due to high cost), LCD HDTV or DLP HDTV (the last 2 quite unlikely due to high costs).

Also, I read about some HDTVs unable to convert from 480p to 720p and such stuff. I know it means picture resolution (just like a laptop monitor res.), but did'nt quite understand why 480p needs to be upped to 720p or 1080i?

Please suggest whats good in such circumstances. You could consider this a poll and say what you would do. It would help me a lot.

P.S: My budget is around 2000$ +/- 500$.

Thanks.

Receiver: Yamaha HTR5590
Front Speakers: Polk Audio R50
DVD Player: Denon DVD900

thehalo8 · November 2003

Why would you need a TV that has 480p? The minimum now should be 720p, and some TV's are already shipping with 1080p (perhaps not in US yet). If you are paying for an updated TV I would not suggest wasting money on a TV with only 480p; just my 2 cents worth.

Fireman99 · November 2003

As for the HDTV that is "supose" to be the new standerd and old analog signals will stop. How many years it will take remains to be seen. As for picture Quality the DLP and Rear projection LCD "the Bulb" TV's is very good! granted a little more $ as for the picture Quality reg TV's and old rear projection the picture degrades over time. The DLP and LCD the picture is supose to run at "NEW" performane until like a light the bulb goes. you pop in another bulb and Picture is "NEW" again. For you price range not sure if the LCD or DLP fall in there But they sure are nice if you got the $.
Dan

PS the DLP and LCD are not prone to "BURN IN"

goingganzo · November 2003

i would go with a dlp you can hook your comp up to it and have more fun. 42in dlp around 3300 50in dlp 4k when i get time i am upgradeing to dlp front projector. way to go dlp or lcd but avoid crt and plasma tv.

jdavy · November 2003

I have been looking into a new set for sometime but have not yet bought one so let me help you out.

HDTV and Analog TV are really defined by the display charateristics. Most HDTV's are HDTV ready with an analog tuner.

Types of HDTV's are:

CRT- your standard tube type tv. Sony 34" XBR-900 is one of the best in this catagory.

RPCRT - your common rear projection. (the best bang for the $)

DLP- Digital Light Processing by Texas Instruments. A rear or front projection system. most using a single chip and color wheel.

LCD - Rear or front projection using 3 chips.

PLASMA - Flat pannel screen you can hang on your wall. Considered the best picture short of the HDTV tube.

First none of these are perfect. The CRT and RPCRT are heavy. The DLP and LCD have difficulty with blacklight, gray scale and fast action. (the image on the LCD with blur. (Use Stewart Little 2 and the skateboard sceen as your test media)) Plasma has both an EDTV and HDTV models and only the HDTV models are worth getting at this time. They are expensive and are prone to burn in.

So you have 2.5K to spend and want a new tv. What would I recommend you buy? I like the Sony 34" CRT see the link below.

Good luck.

BTW, 720p, 1080i and 1080p are considered HDTV resolutions. The 480p would be an EDTV.

http://www.sonystyle.com/is-bin/INTERSHOP.enfinity/eCS/Store/en/-/USD/SY_DisplayProductInformation-Start;sid=mrEcGVS3pVQcOWtyE7wWEhumbLggJZQhJXA=?CategoryName=tv_36%22to40%22TVs_XBR%2836%22to40%22%29&ProductSKU=KV34XBRKIT&Dept=tv

fireshoes · November 2003

One other negative to plasma and lcd is stuck or dead pixels. Drives me completely insane. I vote DLP (i.e. Samsung). The bulb life is minimum 8000 hours on everything below the 61", which would be about 5 years. After the bulb goes, you pop in a new one and your tv is essentially brand new. No dead pixels, no burn-in, you can see them from wide angles, their lightweight...it's awesome!

Second choice due to financial restraints would be Sony 34XBR.

dlew308 · November 2003

I vote for DLP

bikezappa · November 2003

Get a DLP. In Focus sells one for $1000 and you also get a screen for $150 more. Your jaw will drop open. Nothing like a BIG WIDE screen period.

brettw22 · November 2003

Originally posted by jdavy
So you have 2.5K to spend and want a new tv. What would I recommend you buy? I like the Sony 34" CRT see the link below.

If I spent $2.5k and only got a 34" screen, I'd be HELLA pissed. I currently have a 40" Mitsubishi Tube (zero digital capabilities) and I'm pretty happy with that size. Depending on what space limitations you have, the 40" Sony (not widescreen) is a good way to go. To get into those Samsung DLP's, as nice as they are to look at, you'd have to up your budget to $4k for the 40" model I believe. I actually like the size of widescreen movies on the 40" square screen.

dlew308 · November 2003

I paid $3500 total for my tv, stand, shipping

Loud & Clear · November 2003

Originally posted by brettw22
If I spent $2.5k and only got a 34" screen, I'd be HELLA pissed.

No ****. I simply can't envision spending that kind of money for a 34" screen.

brettw22 · November 2003

Originally posted by dlew308
I paid $3500 total for my tv, stand, shipping

And what did you end up getting dlew?

goingganzo · November 2003

actuley there is a lcd tv with is not as black as plasma but beter tin light than plasma. also wint have burn in and works in denver where plasma has trubble. but a 30 in is like 4k so i will say go with dlp rptv or lcd rptv but if you dont mind a bog tv box and can live with a little burn in go rptv crt.

dlew308 · November 2003

Samsung HLN467

sachinsood · November 2003

Thanks for the replies. These are the TVs I'm considering for now:

Rear Projection HDTV capable:

1) Sony KP57WV600KIT (57" Hi-Scan 1080i 16:9 Projection)
http://www.sonystyle.com/is-bin/INTERSHOP.enfinity/eCS/Store/en/-/USD/SY_DisplayProductInformation-Start;sid=T2_QPwuce2LQOTRbNdnaNESQG2m-rmHYbis=?CategoryName=tv_HDTVCapable&ProductSKU=KP57WVKIT

2) Sony KP-57WS510 (57" 16:9 Hi-Scan® Projection)
http://www.sonystyle.com/is-bin/INTERSHOP.enfinity/eCS/Store/en/-/USD/SY_DisplayProductInformation-Start;sid=T2_QPwuce2LQOTRbNdnaNESQG2m-rmHYbis=?CategoryName=tv_HDTVCapable&ProductSKU=KP57WS510

I did not pick up Samsung RP HDTVs as they have 3Line digital comb filter which is inferior compared to Sony's 3D digital comb filter. Also, Samsung does not (seem to) have component inputs on these HDTVs.

DLP HDTV:

1) Samsung DLP TV HLN467W (46" Wide Screen HDTV Monitor TV with DLP technology)
http://www.samsungusa.com/cgi-bin/nabc/product/b2c_product_detail.jsp?eUser=&prod_id=HLN467WX%2fXAA

2) Samsung DLP TV HLN507W (50" Wide Screen HDTV Monitor TV with DLP technology)
http://www.samsungusa.com/cgi-bin/nabc/product/b2c_product_detail.jsp?eUser=&prod_id=HLN507WX%2fXAA

I might go for DLP #2 just for the bigger screen.

A lot of you guys opted for DLP (which even I'm inclined at getting right now). I have listed some pros and cons of both RP HDTV and DLP HDTV that I have learnt of so far:

RP HDTV Pros: Great pic quality especially if getting signal from satellite instead of digital cable (like Time Warner digital cable).
RP TV Cons: Burn-in issue; Heavy compared to DLP and Plasma

DLP TV Pros: Exceptional pic quality (better than RP HDTV); lightweight; no burn-in; can connect your computer to it.
DLP TV Cons: Lamp needs to be changed (after 8000 hours in the case of Samsung), which might even be expensive and I am hoping they do stock the parts 5-7 years hence.

The RP HDTVs I mentioned are HDTV capable (as in they do not have a HDTV tuner).

Some important questions that come to my mind:
1) I have heard the term burn-in in RP HDTVs. What does it really mean technically? What happens to the PQ in the case of a burn-in?
2) Considering RP HDTV and DLP HDTV, what could be worse in the long run? A burn-in or a lamp replacement?
3) Could a burn-in be rectified? Or is it something that just happens and degrades the PQ and all you can do is live with it or buy another TV?
4) How soon can a burn-in occur on RP HDTVs? Earlier than a DLP lamp replacement, later or around the same time?
5) If a burn-in can be rectified (some part needs to be replaced), what would be a cheaper fix? RP HDTV or DLP HDTV?

Hope you can answer those and give any other suggestions/recommendations.

Thanks again!

sachinsood · November 2003

An afterthought...

Suppose you use a DLP HDTV that has a requirement to replace the lamp every 8000 hours to get back the exceptional PQ just as though it was a new TV...Consider you use this TV on an average of 1 hour/day. There are 8760 hours in a year, meaning you need to replace the lamp every year!!! A recurring expense as long as you own this TV (assuming this lamp is an expensive component)!!!

ken brydson · November 2003

Originally posted by sachinsood
An afterthought...

Suppose you use a DLP HDTV that has a requirement to replace the lamp every 8000 hours to get back the exceptional PQ just as though it was a new TV...Consider you use this TV on an average of 1 hour/day. There are 8760 hours in a year, meaning you need to replace the lamp every year!!! A recurring expense as long as you own this TV (assuming this lamp is an expensive component)!!!

Gotta double check your math bud. Average an hour a day, 365 days a year means you replace after 22 years

Fireman99 · November 2003

They say average life of the Bulb is 5yrs. Bulbs now are around $400 if I remember right.
"Burn In" happens when you have a constant picture on the screen lie the FOX logo or If you use it for games could be a control panel etc. with the picture being constant and on the same spot on the screen it Burns ( or etches) itself into the screen. Resulting in you seeing that image on the screen all the time. I guess to replace the screen would fix the burn in probably cheaper to get a new set.
Dan

sachinsood · November 2003

Arrgghh!!! Sorry about the math! Don't know what I was thinking at the time. Posted that when I just woke up. Or turkey does strange things overnight in your stomach. Bleh!!!

Anyways, I went to CircuitCity today - finally took a close look at some TVs - mainly the Samsung DLP and the Sony LCD and spent a lot of time with the rep out there asking all sorts of questions. I spent about 30 mins just trying to figure out where the PQ differed in both.

Sony 50" Grand WEGA LCD Rear Projection TV
KF-50WE610 (cost of $3099.99 with 4 yr City Advantage plan of $499.99) and the Samsung DLP TV HLN507W 50" Wide Screen HDTV Monitor TV with DLP technology (cost of $3599.99 with a 4 yr City Advantage plan of $599.99).

Here is my personal review of the above two. Hope it helps anyone planning to buy such stuff...

Both have an excellent PQ. The DLP technology does live up to its claims of producing better PQ than RP HDTV and compared to the Sony LCD it produces sharper blacks - as in the blacks are blacker than on the LCD TV. The colors on DLP are a lot brighter/vivid than on LCD. However, looking at the picture, and ignoring just the black areas, you cannot really tell which one produces a more natural color than the other. For eg., If you look at the skin color of a person on either TV, you just cant say which is more natural. It is brighter on the DLP and less brighter on the LCD. But you just can't say which one is closer to the real/actual skin color of that person. Producing a brighter image may not necessarily mean it is closer to the real/actual image.

When you look at static images (like a game score display) on either screen, again, the DLP excels in the black portion, but as far as whites are concerned (the score in white on a black background), the LCD did a better job. Both of course, did not do a good job (performed similarly) in the case of sharpness of displaying text. The curved letters were jagged (though not noticeable from far off). Maybe this can be corrected by adjusting the sharpness in both or getting a better signal input.

About bulb replacements, both DLP and LCD need replacements at around the same time. And Ken, you are right - 22 years if the average viewing time is 1hr/day.

I am considering the Sony LCD right now. By choosing this, I am already going a 1000$ over my budget and hence not choosing DLP. The Sony 42" LCD was for $2649.99 with $499.99 for a 4 yr City Advantage plan.

Thanks for all the comments.

Frank Z · November 2003

One of the things that I learned at my favorite HiFi shop recently was that LCD sets are more prone to artifacts than a DLP or plasma set. Scenes with a lot of rapid movement can really illustrate the problem. I saw it while there was a college football game on (ESPN-HD @ 720p). Almost all of the close-up shots showed the artifacts and pixelazation (sp?). The Loewe DLP set on the other hand was perfect! You might want to keep that in mind next time you go to audition a display.

Terrax · November 2003

If you are in the market to buy a HDTV monitor I would suggest visiting the avsforum @ www.avsforum.com. The wealth of information you can find there is incredible. Also, if looking at RPTV's check out Hitachi's and Pioneer Elites.

sachinsood · November 2003

I was looking out for the artifact factor on the LCD display. They had a Sony Plasma, Sony LCD and a Samsung DLP side by side. Comparing them all, I noticed that issue on the plasma while all three were showing an ice hockey game.

The plasma suffered from this entirely - it was very noticeable, whatever the distance viewed from. Fast action was not displayed well on plasma, but the only difference I noticed between the LCD and the DLP was difference in color. Like I mentioned, the DLP had very bright/vivd colors and blacker blacks (which really stood out) as compared to the LCD. The yellow looked brighter on DLP than on LCD but then again you cannot tell which yellow was closer to the real yellow that you would have seen as an audience with your naked eye. If only the LCD had blacker blacks like the DLP, it would be fantastic - I read somewhere that it (black color) is an inherent issue with LCD displays.

Both LCD and DLP displayed fast action scenes the same manner. At least to me I could not figure out any difference in that context.

Thanks for the link too.

goingganzo · November 2003

i have the samsung 50 in plasma downstairs and it has 1080i ins dvi and rgb also has a rs232 port also it is smaller than the sony in every way.

dlew308 · November 2003

lcd article
http://in.tech.yahoo.com/031118/137/29jhz.html

sachinsood · November 2003

I read that article .. the link that you sent me. I'm going to go look at those LCD tvs again and watch some fast action on it. The ice hockey game did not produce any kind of blur on the LCD screen.

Quote: "The blurring or so-called "ghosting" is one of the reasons it can be a challenge to watch a tennis match on an LCD television. The pixels in the screen that create the image need 12 milliseconds to switch on and off, while the ball can move much faster. The ball ends up looking like a comet."

Nothing mentioned about DLPs in that article, however. I was looking out for that issue on the LCD, and in contrast to what's in that article, I noticed it on the plasma screen clearly.

In my opinion, I rated the tvs in the following way:

1) DLP - No known issues. Excellent PQ.
2) LCD - PQ not as good as DLP, but still great.
3) Plasma - Blur effect when viewing fast motion scenes.
4) HDTV - Burn-in effect that can get annoying when noticed.

All three need bulb replacements around the same time. People talk about not being able to see anything on LCD when viewed at an extreme angle. I don't ever intend to watch my TV that way.

Fireman99 · November 2003

The father-in-law just got a Sony 60" LCD it is supose to have a 170 deg viewing angle. You would almost have to sit behind it not to see. No matter what you got you cant see from behind:D
Unless you got a front projection with a clear screan i supose

Dan

thehalo8 · December 2003

I am looking into getting a Samsung HLM437W. The picture quality on this baby is amazing. I have spent countless hours at my local CC checking out all the displays. The XBR's from Sony are also quite nice, but this DLP from Samsung can't get out of my head. The only problem is the width of the TV is 1.5 inches to big to fit in my entertainment center!!!!!! The height and depth are just fine, but its to WIDE. My wife and I both like out entertainment center very much, and we are not about to spend a few more hundred (or thousand) dollars to purchase a new entertainment center at this point to accommodate a TV. I envy all of you out there with the room to pick up a TV like this or bigger

jdavy · December 2003

Great discussion. If cost, size and value are your prioritys, I say the best would be the DLP systems. Good luck.

sachinsood · December 2003

yes certainly a DLP is the best choice today. Well perhaps if I wait another 2-3 months, I'd save up some extra cash for it. I might just do that.

I use my laptop to watch DVDs usually and I have never noticed any blur effect on this LCD screen - wonder why that happens on the LCD/Plasma TV screens. Laptop screens are (or were - at least mine was) meant for computer related stuff - more of stationary images than fast moving stuff...but well it does quite a good job at anything...not that terrible blur effect that was showing up on the 6000$ plus Sony plasma screen

brentman0110 · December 2003

Any suggestions on DLP TV's 60" or bigger?

goingganzo · December 2003

samsung makes 2 moddles i think of a 61 check it out. crutchfield i think sells 1 of them.

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