NAD T-187 pre/pro disappoints

BlueFox

I decided to replace my approximately 6-7 year old Sony DA-7100ES AVR used a pre/pro with a dedicated pre/pro. I read good things about the NAD T-187 and decided it's $3k price was acceptable. Anyway, I hooked it up today and did the setup. As soon as I turned it on I could hear a buzz from every speaker. The Sony is drop dead silent. The buzz is constant. It does not increase or decrease with volume. While the NAD appears really nice, the buzz is unacceptable. So tomorrow it is on the phone with Audio Advisor, get an RMA, and return this POS. This is my first, and probably last, experience with NAD.

FTGV

It may be a ground loop rearing it's ugly head.What amp are you pairing it with?It appears to have a 3 pronged plug so for diagnostic purposes only (not long term solution) you might try a cheater plug or a two pronged extension cord to temporarilly lift the safety ground on the NAD.

BlueFox

FTGV wrote: »

It may be a ground loop rearing it's ugly head.What amp are you pairing it with?

I doubt it. No AC hum, just a buzz.

The amp is Sunfire TGA 5400, connected via 5 MIT CVT Terminator 1. All gear uses Shunyata Venom power cables to a Panamax 5400 power conditioner, which uses a Pangea AC9SE. The Pangea is on a dedicated 20 amp line with nothing else on the line.

Also, Google has already found this thread. Amazing.

mantis

I have Installed quite a few NAD pre's and receivers and never had this problem that your having. I'm wondering if you wired something wrong , recheck your wiring. Also unplug your cablebox from the pre , meaning everything metallic like HDMI , analog , digital coax etc. Then disconnect the cablebox from the wall and from the service. if buzz goes away , then you have a cable grounding issue , if you get this buzz with nothing connected to the pre , then you have a defected pre. Hey look we deal with man made products all the time and your bound to get one bad once in awhile. That pre is worth getting another one , it's a hell of a good sounding pre man. Don't give up that fast.

So disconnect everything from the pre , then go one by one to the amp , make sure your actually using pre outs not in's. I've seen hurry up and get it working issues before.

Then again if you feel to strongly about it , get a Integra DHC803 and call it a day.

BlueFox

Mantis, good suggestions, but no help. One of the goals here is I am getting rid of cable in the HT, so the only things attached are, Oppo on HDMI 1, Xbox on HDMI 2, SACD on HDMI 3, and Wadia 171 on Coax 1. Everything removed, the buzz is still there. If I turn off the amp, the buzz goes away. :biggrin:

FTGV

Did you try lifting the AC safety ground?

BlueFox

Just as one final test, I powered it from the main house wiring. Since it was built in 58 it is only 2 wire, no ground, and the buzz is still there. More and more, it is looking like defective equipment.

gdb

The source of the problem is more than likely traceable to UPS-FedEx-etc. and the gentle care that they took with your item.

BlueFox

gdb wrote: »

The source of the problem is more than likely traceable to UPS-FedEx-etc. and the gentle care that they took with your item.

I agree with that. When I received it the remote was bouncing around inside. Also, Nad uses plugin modules so you can upgrade. I think after I talk to Audio Advisor tomorrow I might try reseating the cards and see if that makes any difference.

mantis

BlueFox wrote: »

I agree with that. When I received it the remote was bouncing around inside. Also, Nad uses plugin modules so you can upgrade. I think after I talk to Audio Advisor tomorrow I might try reseating the cards and see if that makes any difference.

Thats a good Idea , that might be the problem , crosses fingers.

BlueFox

Reseating the cards did not help. I am returning this to audio Advisor. However, I will give it another chance, and order one from Crutchfield. At least Crutchfield includes the free return shipping label with the shipment. I have to wait a few days for the free shipping label to arrive from AA.

mantis

BlueFox wrote: »

Reseating the cards did not help. I am returning this to audio Advisor. However, I will give it another chance, and order one from Crutchfield. At least Crutchfield includes the free return shipping label with the shipment. I have to wait a few days for the free shipping label to arrive from AA.

I am sorry you have to deal with this , nothing sucks more then getting a new toy and it's broken. But I will say it again it's worth it , wait till you hear how good this pre is. NAD everything they make is remarkable at the price points they make you pay. Full retail they are fully worth every cent. The card frame is a huge bonus as long as they support upgrades at least one or 2 levels down the road.

Good luck my man , looking forward to your thought after you get one that works.

BlueFox

Thinking that the first NAD T187 might have been defective, I ordered another from a different vendor (Crutchfield). This unit also has a buzz from all speakers, but is not as loud as the other. However, for $3k I expect silence in my chair. I can accept a slight buzz with my ear next to the speaker, but I listen to a lot of classical, and the last thing I want is buzzing in the quiet passages.

Also, there was another issue from the AVR perspective. No video! Neither the BR or the on-screen setup would display out either HDMI 1 or 2 out.

It will be a while before I try another NAD product.

BlueFox

Shipped both of these back today. I have $6k on my credit card for broken gear. Hopefully, it is $0 by the end of next week. This was my first, and last, experience with NAD.

I ordered an Onkyo 5509 in place of the NAD. It is $500 less, and has balanced outputs.

PSOVLSK

While I've had nothing but good experience with NAD, I'd feel the same if I were in your shoes. That's crazy for a $3K piece of gear. Best of luck with the Onkyo.

BlueFox

PSOVLSK wrote: »

While I've had nothing but good experience with NAD, I'd feel the same if I were in your shoes. That's crazy for a $3K piece of gear. Best of luck with the Onkyo.

Thanks. Every manufacturer has glitches and I'm sure if they have any issues they will make it right. These issues are the one pain with buying online.

pearsall001

Also sorry to hear about the poor performance of the two units. I've always been a fan of NAD & I've had nothing but high praise for the products that I've owned over the years. Hopefully they correct the issues. Can't say I blame you for moving on though after this experience. That Onkyo is a great piece & hopefully doesn't dissapoint.

BlueFox

Just as a follow up on this issue, I did some more research, and decided to get an Onkyo 5509. This easily outweighs the NAD, has balanced outputs should I upgrade cables, cost $500 less, and is dead quiet. Which is exactly how a preamp should operate with no input. I just finished setting it up, and the very tentative first impression is there is more detail compared to the Sony DA7100ES I was using as a pre. I need to get more familiar with it, let it burn in, and then evaluate it. Right now my neighbors are having an outside birthday party for their kid, and the adult portion will last until late at night. So, it is hard to critically sonically evaluate anything right now. Review later.

Tankman

BlueFox...I feel you will like that unit a lot,I have the TX-NR818 and its not even close too what you have with that unit but for me coming from an H/K3600 to the NR818 was like night and day for HT hands down the NR818 I got the better of the two units.Oh one more note...I had the NAD T-187 too and sent it back too,but for 3 g's? and I had a knee replacement surgery that came up so back it went.Anyway lets us know your thoughts on your new unit.

Thorton

Blue, I'm curious why you selected the Onkyo over something like the Marantz AV7701 which is approx. $800 less? SQ, experience or features? Please give us review when you've completed the critical listening.

BlueFox

Thorton wrote: »

Blue, I'm curious why you selected the Onkyo over something like the Marantz AV7701 which is approx. $800 less? SQ, experience or features? Please give us review when you've completed the critical listening.

I went with the Onkyo because I could not find Integra online, but other research indicated they were basically the same inside, with the exterior being the main difference. In this case, I used Mantis's opinion of the Integra as a starting point, and did more online searching for other reviews, and the Onkyo had good press. So far, audio wise it is sounding good. I just finished attaching my iPod/Wadia 171 to it, and I am impressed with the DAC performance.

mantis

They are very close to being the same. If you talk to Integra , they claim to use a better chassis , better DAC's and output stages , better power supply and it's more custom.
The only preamp IMO sounds basically the same as the Integra and a very fine one indeed. For all digital sources , it's probably the best preamp out there anywhere near it's price point. You should have very good luck with it for years to come.
One thing you might want to research is IF the Onkyo takes all incoming analog sources and digitizes them. The Integra does this and is why I didn't buy the DHC80.3 as I wanted to run a external DAC. In the grand scheme of things , it's really not necessary with the Integra / Onkyo's as the internal DAC's are Burr Brown and sound really good. They can except 24/192 and sound pretty damn nice doing so.
Get a network line connected to your pre and do a firmware update now before you lose video. There is one issue with them right now is something happens to the HDMI software overtime. If you do the firmware update , this is a non issue as it's addressed.
Also with the network line connected , you now have the ability to use the onkyo app which is pretty awesome. You now have a Onkyo version of Apple's Airplay and can stream your Iphone or Ipad music to the Onkyo wireless. It's pretty cool when your using zone 2 or 3 etc.
Any questions you have with it I probably can answer , I've done a ton of the Integra's.

BlueFox

mantis wrote: »

They are very close to being the same. If you talk to Integra , they claim to use a better chassis , better DAC's and output stages , better power supply and it's more custom.

On the other hand, others claim they are the same inside, and those differences are marketing hype. Who knows.

tonyb

I doubt it's marketing hype. If the differences were just cosmetic, someones getting screwed pretty good.

BlueFox

Not to get off-topic on the Onkyo vs. Integra, or 5509 vs. DHC-80.3, but Internet searching gives results on the same side versus the different side. Personally, I was not aware of any of this before I started looking for a Nad replacement. I didn't even know the two companies were related.

This company mods these units for better operation. This is from their web-page.


"The Onkyo Pro 5509 is the EXACT same unit inside as the Integra DHC-80.3, their remotes are even interchangeable. The Onkyo looks better and has a better extruded aluminum case and front trap door for better shielding and a more expensive appearance. Same price on out website, $3399 for either one brand new already SE upgraded. Shipped double boxed, remote/manual/microphone all still sealed. No stock preamplifier at any price can touch one of these units upgraded given a direct HDMI 1.4a link to an SE upgraded player. Liquid velvet, huge airy speakers disappear bass from out of nowhere sound. Each performer precisely locked into position on a huge stage.

The Onkyo 5509 & internally matching Integra 80.3 sound similar. The Onkyo has a thicker non magnetic shielding aluminum top cover and side panels and front trap door, which gives the 5509 a slightly blacker background and greater liquidity, slightly more bass and highs, provided both units have the same burn in and hours of use. The Integra has a stamped steal/tin 1piece cheap top cover which is magnetic and highly resonant, without any front door shielding over the naked front panel buttons. We like the Onkyo Pro version better as it is clearly superior."

https://www.upgradecompany.com/index.php/upgrade-company-products/upgrade-company-onkyo/2/onkyo-pr-sc5509-thx-ultra-2-certified-av-controller-detail

mantis

BlueFox wrote: »

Not to get off-topic on the Onkyo vs. Integra, or 5509 vs. DHC-80.3, but Internet searching gives results on the same side versus the different side. Personally, I was not aware of any of this before I started looking for a Nad replacement. I didn't even know the two companies were related.

This company mods these units for better operation. This is from their web-page.


"The Onkyo Pro 5509 is the EXACT same unit inside as the Integra DHC-80.3, their remotes are even interchangeable. The Onkyo looks better and has a better extruded aluminum case and front trap door for better shielding and a more expensive appearance. Same price on out website, $3399 for either one brand new already SE upgraded. Shipped double boxed, remote/manual/microphone all still sealed. No stock preamplifier at any price can touch one of these units upgraded given a direct HDMI 1.4a link to an SE upgraded player. Liquid velvet, huge airy speakers disappear bass from out of nowhere sound. Each performer precisely locked into position on a huge stage.

The Onkyo 5509 & internally matching Integra 80.3 sound similar. The Onkyo has a thicker non magnetic shielding aluminum top cover and side panels and front trap door, which gives the 5509 a slightly blacker background and greater liquidity, slightly more bass and highs, provided both units have the same burn in and hours of use. The Integra has a stamped steal/tin 1piece cheap top cover which is magnetic and highly resonant, without any front door shielding over the naked front panel buttons. We like the Onkyo Pro version better as it is clearly superior."

https://www.upgradecompany.com/index.php/upgrade-company-products/upgrade-company-onkyo/2/onkyo-pr-sc5509-thx-ultra-2-certified-av-controller-detail

We are a Integra Dealer and I have spoken to our Rep a few times about this very thing and he continues to tell me it's not true. They are different with the power transformer, DAC's , Output stages are better on the Integra etc. Not to mention all the Custom integration features. The Remote works because the IR is the same. The Onkyo line is all the same with the higher end models with more features. Same goes with the Integra line.

Either way who really knows the real truth , I'm in the business and I can't prove it one way or the other.

Anyway I was curious how your enjoying the Preamp? I've been putting the NAD T187 through everything I can throw at it and it's an incredible sounding unit.
I do have the buzz but I can't hear it from the seating position nor when playing anything. I have to get right up on one of my speakers and then it's there. I don't think it's hindering my overall sound quality as my system right now sounds amazing.